How is what Jesus did different than 'suicide by cop'

[Cronus]

Jesus knew what was going to happen to him and that his rabble rousing was going to get him killed by the authorities and he knew exactly how it was going to happen. Jesus therefore did everything in order to insure his death by crucifixtion and is therefore a suicide and should have been sent straight to hell.

This is ridiculous. I mean come on.

Suicide is a mortal sin because it connotates killing oneself to escape from the world.

Self-sacrifice is something very different. By your logic, a man who jumps on a grenade to save his squadmates is suicidal and deserves to go to Hell. Generally not the case. It's written somewhere in the Bible that there is no greater act of love than to sacrifice one's life for a friend.

He didn't die for anyone. Are you saying that the infinite power of God was unable to let people into heaven unless he became man and died? Sounds like unnecessary pompous showmanship. The whole concept of Jesus is ridiculous because his existence is completely unnecessary for an all powerful God.

[joecoolfrog]

really? i mean i'm thinking you know just how offensive what you guys are saying can be, so whats the entertainment factor like? is it like a feeling of superiority? or is it like watching anchorman, or is it like watching a dude get hit by a football in the crotch? just wondering, i'm trying to get a handle on your motives here.

Oh Please
Do you care that some of us might find your promotional signature offensive, why the need to advertise your personal beliefs I wonder !
You believe in God and the bible, I believe that the Easter Bunny has as much validity, your views are no more sacred than mine my friend.

Why on earth would you be offended when someone openly states that he himself is proud to follow Christ? How is this possibly offensive to you? He is not attacking you in any way and he is not forcing you to do anything. He is simply stating his own beliefs. Maybe your ignorant and selfish comments are offensive to him. Did you ever think of that?

You really are not very bright are you,try reading my posts again and attempt to digest what I actually say before spewing out nonsense,would you recognise irony if it slapped you in the face I wonder.

[cleveridea]

It's written somewhere in the Bible that there is no greater act of love than to sacrifice one's life for a friend.

My BS-o-meter went crazy on that one...

[Whiteberry]

really? i mean i'm thinking you know just how offensive what you guys are saying can be, so whats the entertainment factor like? is it like a feeling of superiority? or is it like watching anchorman, or is it like watching a dude get hit by a football in the crotch? just wondering, i'm trying to get a handle on your motives here.

Oh Please
Do you care that some of us might find your promotional signature offensive, why the need to advertise your personal beliefs I wonder !
You believe in God and the bible, I believe that the Easter Bunny has as much validity, your views are no more sacred than mine my friend.

Why on earth would you be offended when someone openly states that he himself is proud to follow Christ? How is this possibly offensive to you? He is not attacking you in any way and he is not forcing you to do anything. He is simply stating his own beliefs. Maybe your ignorant and selfish comments are offensive to him. Did you ever think of that?

You really are not very bright are you,try reading my posts again and attempt to digest what I actually say before spewing out nonsense,would you recognise irony if it slapped you in the face I wonder.

I read your post, did you? You may call it irony, but that sounds like back stepping to me. You sound like a typical liberal that wants to make an issue out of other people's right to express themselves. If their comments or beliefs do not conform to your own warped ideologies you make an issue out of it. Then when you get called on the carpet about your liberalism you make excuses and lash out insults. Does that make you feel better?

[joecoolfrog]

This is what Jehan and I were referring to.

This thread is funny because the complete concept of the thread is absurd yet all the Jesus Freaks got their knickers in a twist that their "great Lord" had been insulted. Totally worth it I think

I don't see any questions of the historical validity of the Bible, do you?

Thats only one comment and in all honesty if one wears ones faith on ones sleeve,so to speak, then they must expect a certain amount of ribbing. Im sorry but it strikes me as absurd to announce that one is proud of ones beliefs,just as I find it absurd when people say they are proud of their sexual orientation or proud of their gender or skin colour.
Surely pride is about achievement and how is that relevant to how one was born or what one believes,should I be proud because I dont believe in God or dont eat fish ?

well if you truly understood where we were coming from you would understand that we advertise our beliefs because we really believe that Jesus is the hope of the world, not that we think it makes us better then anyone at all, if it does seem like that then i apologise. We want people to find Christ man, i mean if you think the easter bunny can save your soul for all eternity then i would see absolutely no problem in you making crazy flashing sig that creates awareness of the easter bunny, and i wouldn't go out of my way to disparage your belief in a way that shows no regard for what you hold dear.

Im sorry if you find what I say offensive as that is not my intention but you really cant blame others if your faith cannot tolerate some mild criticism. I understand that you wish to spread the good word but I still find your reasoning flawed, feeling elated about finding Christ I can quite accept but why proud ! I have listened to theologians who still retain a deep faith yet acknowledge that the bible is not word perfect, this is a position I can fully understand and support but sheer blind acceptance without question deserves ridicule whatever the subject under discussion.

[joecoolfrog]

Whiteberry
You are a narrow minded fool if you cannot conceive that others find religion absurd. If you are correct in your beliefs then no doubt I will roast in hell for my cynicism so why the need to get so uppity,worried you have been duped are you
Incidently the definition of a liberal is one who is broad minded and tolerant of other peoples opinions , only the truly ignorant would consider those attributes to be negative I would have thought.

[Whiteberry]

Whiteberry
You are a narrow minded fool if you cannot conceive that others find religion absurd. If you are correct in your beliefs then no doubt I will roast in hell for my cynicism so why the need to get so uppity,worried you have been duped are you

I understand that there are people in this world that will find religion absurd. I don't have a problem with this. A lot of people reject religion and anyone in America or other western civilizations have the right to do this if they wish. Thank God we live in a country where we are free to make that choice. What I had a problem with is when you suggested that "some of us might find your promotional signature offensive". I don't understand why anyone would be offended when someone else proclaims their own beliefs. This would be like Jehan being offended because you do not believe in Christianity. I do not think this is the case.

[Whiteberry]

Incidently the definition of a liberal is one who is broad minded and tolerant of other peoples opinions , only the truly ignorant would consider those attributes to be negative I would have thought.

LOL. Unfortunately, in America liberals are the exact opposite of your definition. I'm sorry for not noticing that you are on the other side of the pond.

[Beastly]

Jesus knew what was going to happen to him and that his rabble rousing was going to get him killed by the authorities and he knew exactly how it was going to happen. Jesus therefore did everything in order to insure his death by crucifixtion and is therefore a suicide and should have been sent straight to hell.

Why do conversations have to go off topic, about what you believe, and who is wrong, and blah blah blah. Whether you believe in the bible or not is not relevant to this thread. And making fun of Christians is defiantly off topic.


As far as Jesus knowing what was about to happen to him...I think you should ask yourself just what did he know about his death coming? He asked god if possible to spare him his life. I mean it seems to me that maybe its possible for people who die, might somehow know its coming. Like Elvis, and a friend of mine who did funny things before she was killed.

Maybe he knew that when he was caught by the police (pharisees) that he was going to have to bow to the king, and admit he is king of the Jews, and he knew this was against the law, but knew who he was, what his plan for his life was, and what he had to do.

Where in the heck in the bible does it say that he didn't admit to who he was? That is directed at you Salva, because you stated it?

I think of Christ a person just like me. If I knew I was going to die from breaking a law, and I knew I had to break it, I would be asking god to do something to help me.

I don't know what Christ knew... It doesn't say. You all who don't read the bible and don't know anything about it shouldn't put it down. Its like being a virgin and putting down sex.

It is very rude and distasteful to make fun of someone who has died to a person who is a family member or loves that person. Think about it Salva.. if your boyfriend died and then people started mocking the person you loved how that would feel. I don't mean to single you out, I just used your name to make a point.

See some of Jesus' followers love him, I know that seems impossible for you, but you don't understand because you are a Jesus virgin. But maybe now you can understand why people get hurt or angry.

Now me on the other hand... I don't care, make fun all you want, say all you want. My Jesus is so big, that I don't have to stick up for him.. or argue in his defense, believe me he can defend himself.

If you have questions thats should be ok, as long as you can answer questions also.

oh and about jesus just being knocked out or something, it says that he was speared in the heart... to prove this is true, it says that water and blood spilled.

Thats what happens when a heart is pierced, look it up medically, and look it up in the bible. and the people who made the bible did it a very long time ago, and if you are to argue about the authors, well from what they say they were not doctors.

[joecoolfrog]

Incidently the definition of a liberal is one who is broad minded and tolerant of other peoples opinions , only the truly ignorant would consider those attributes to be negative I would have thought.

LOL. Unfortunately, in America liberals are the exact opposite of your definition. I'm sorry for not noticing that you are on the other side of the pond.

Hee Hee
Probably explains why we cant grasp what the other is trying to say

[salvadevinemasse]

It's written somewhere in the Bible that there is no greater act of love than to sacrifice one's life for a friend.

My BS-o-meter went crazy on that one...

I'm with you on that one!!

[2dimes]

It's written somewhere in the Bible that there is no greater act of love than to sacrifice one's life for a friend.

My BS-o-meter went crazy on that one...

I'm with you on that one!!

Sorry but it's in there, it's John 15:13.

Kind of strange you would doubt something like that.

[salvadevinemasse]

It's written somewhere in the Bible that there is no greater act of love than to sacrifice one's life for a friend.

My BS-o-meter went crazy on that one...

I'm with you on that one!!

Sorry but it's in there. Kind of strange you would doubt something like that.

We aren't saying its not.. we are saying *or at least I am* That you dont have to show love by sacrificing your own life. Cant you just say it with a card? lol. Much safer and no one dies!!!

[2dimes]

We aren't saying its not.. we are saying *or at least I am* That you dont have to show love by sacrificing your own life. Cant you just say it with a card? lol. Much safer and no one dies!!!

It didn't say you had to do it. Just that there was no greater love.

I could move in with a hot younger woman and send my wife a card to make sure she knows I love her. Think she'll buy it?

[Neutrino]

I read your post, did you? You may call it irony, but that sounds like back stepping to me. You sound like a typical liberal that wants to make an issue out of other people's right to express themselves. If their comments or beliefs do not conform to your own warped ideologies you make an issue out of it. Then when you get called on the carpet about your liberalism you make excuses and lash out insults. Does that make you feel better?

Yes, you are absolutely right. There are only two possible political opinions and so, if someone disagrees with you (you obviously being a Conservative) there is no possible option other than them being a liberal.

God I hate idiots who don't have the intellectual capabilities to think outside a self-imposed box...

[salvadevinemasse]

We aren't saying its not.. we are saying *or at least I am* That you dont have to show love by sacrificing your own life. Cant you just say it with a card? lol. Much safer and no one dies!!!

It didn't say you had to do it. Just that there was no greater love.

I could move in with a hot younger woman and send my wife a card to make sure she knows I love her. Think she'll buy it?

I think she'd be pissed... Depending though on many things.. Does she want a divorce? Because if she does I'm sure She'd buy it if she wants one and you wont sign the papers.. *Hey, don't get offended I'm just stating a point here that if that was ever the case then in that way yes she'd buy it* Sometimes the best way to show someone that you love them is to let them go and see if they come back. If they come back its meant to be, if not then it obviously isnt..

[vtmarik]

I think what he's saying is that the flag isn't made of one star and one stripe, but many stars and many stripes, all forming a box inside which we are free to think.

[salvadevinemasse]

I think what he's saying is that the flag isn't made of one star and one stripe, but many stars and many stripes, all forming a box inside which we are free to think.

yup, freedom of speech!

[daddy1gringo]

He didn't die for anyone. Are you saying that the infinite power of God was unable to let people into heaven unless he became man and died? Sounds like unnecessary pompous showmanship. The whole concept of Jesus is ridiculous because his existence is completely unnecessary for an all powerful God.

This is a legitimate question, and brings us back to the subject of the thread. I'm glad you asked. Let me give you an analogy.

A girl, a college student, is in traffic court for a speeding ticket. She is pronounced guilty and has to pay a $250 fine. Then something unusual happens. The judge stands up, removes his robe, (don't worry, he has a suit underneath) walks to the clerk and pays the fine. Then he resumes the bench and the robe. You see, the judge is her father. As her father, he knows that his college-student daughter can't afford the fine, and knowing her, he believes that she really won't do it again, so as her father, he has decided that she should not pay the fine. But as a judge, he would be corrupt if he just let her off because she was his daughter. The only solution would be for him to require the payment, but to pay it himself.

That's why the cross was nessesary. I could go into the meanings of the Hebrew terms El-Shaddai" and "Adonai Sabeoth" that are translated "God Almighty", but suffice it to say they don't give us semantic problems like the old "Could God make a rock that he can't lift?" There are things God can't do; He can't violate his nature, which includes justice and love. So with regard to a human race which he loves and wants to be in loving relationship with him now and forever, but which had used the free will with which he had gifted them to turn away from him into selfishness, he had a problem. Yes, God had a problem. He could not violate his love that would do anything to have us with him, nor his justice.

He also can't die. Aside from being God, he is a spirit, not flesh. He had to take off the robe, inhabit flesh, become human, and pay the penalty himself. The violence that happened to Jesus at the cross is the measure of God's passionate hatred for sin, and of his equally passionate love for me, and for you.

"I am the good shepherd, the good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep...No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord, I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it up again. This command I have from my Father." (John 10:11,18 ) Somehow, the word "suicide" just doesn't do it for me.

[2dimes]

We aren't saying its not.. we are saying *or at least I am* That you dont have to show love by sacrificing your own life. Cant you just say it with a card? lol. Much safer and no one dies!!!

It didn't say you had to do it. Just that there was no greater love.

I could move in with a hot younger woman and send my wife a card to make sure she knows I love her. Think she'll buy it?

I think she'd be pissed... Depending though on many things.. Does she want a divorce? Because if she does I'm sure She'd buy it if she wants one and you wont sign the papers.. *Hey, don't get offended I'm just stating a point here that if that was ever the case then in that way yes she'd buy it* Sometimes the best way to show someone that you love them is to let them go and see if they come back. If they come back its meant to be, if not then it obviously isnt..

So now we agree a card is not going to do it.

Unfourtunatly for my crippled sex life, we're buying into the crazy lies that marriage is supposed to be monogamous and not disposible here.
(So that's a no on the, "Does she want a divorce?")
Due to those rediculas restrictions being imposed on me, banging random hot chicks isn't going to work out.

I keep trying to explain to her, you can't just say "I love you." your actions need to back it up.

Yes that includes my not replacing her with hot beer ad type females, even if they're just pictures or other formats of pr0n.

It should be much more important that I act in ways that show I love her, wether or not I'm using the phrase shouldn't matter.

I understand that our gender imposed limitations prevent me from flippantly saying it when I'm not feeling it. As well her limitations in comprehending such a thing forces the need to tell her in addition to living it.

[unriggable]

I wonder sometimes how Jesus was better than Socrates.

[mybike_yourface]

it's not much different.

i think Deicide summed it up best "God is the reason we live in dismay It is his will that this world's suffering If we do not believe what you foretell We can expect afterlife to be hell You are the one who killed his own son We are the ones you're blaming it on Lust was created beginning with hymn When we indulge we are guilty of sin Torture our lives with confusion and lies Mass contradiction, religious facades BLAME IT ON GOD"
-Deicide- blame it on god

[daddy1gringo]

I wonder sometimes how Jesus was better than Socrates.

I already answered you when you asked the same thing on the "Question for the religious types" thread. Or you could just read what I posted about 3 posts up. Here is the old post again:

Except you are rejecting paradise by rejecting Christ's redemptive work.

What exactly did Christ do that MLK, Ghandi and others did not? How is he in his mortal life any greater?

If we start with the premise that he was merely human, it is impossible to make a comparison anyway because, as we have debated in the "Christianity" thread, pretty much the only sources about what he did in his life would be unreliable, since they claimed he was more than human: did miracles, rose from the dead, etc.

We don't believe forgiveness/redemption is through Jesus because he was a human being who lived a good life. We believe that he was God himself having inhabited a human body so that he could suffer the penalty of sin so we wouldn't have to. He willingly chose to become human, and persue the path that led to his crucufiction for this purpose.

It was the one way that God could have us re-united with himself, both forever and even now in spirit, and still be true to his nature as a righteous judge who doesn't wink at sin. The horrible death Jesus suffered gives a pale picture of his intense, violent, passionate hatred for sin, and of his equally intense, violent, passionate love for you.

So what's Ghandi got to do with that again?

[daddy1gringo]

it's not much different.

i think Deicide summed it up best "God is the reason we live in dismay It is his will that this world's suffering If we do not believe what you foretell We can expect afterlife to be hell You are the one who killed his own son We are the ones you're blaming it on Lust was created beginning with hymn When we indulge we are guilty of sin Torture our lives with confusion and lies Mass contradiction, religious facades BLAME IT ON GOD"
-Deicide- blame it on god

Don't know what you're talking about. The desire God gave me is part of, and beautifully fulfilled in, the intimacy I have with my wife: body, soul, and spirit, as God provided.

Sounds like you grabbed for the devil's cheap immitation and came up hurt and empty as it always goes when you buy his lies. You're aiming your blame in the wrong direction.

[mybike_yourface]

i don't blame god. i don't beleive in him (or his neccesary counterpart). i think bible thumpers should blame God though. that is if there was any logic involved.