[CC8] Final: TOFU (34) vs LHDD (27) - TOFU Wins - 2/15/19

[trapyoung]

[Arama86n]

being a mediocre player sticking with a bunch of top notch players for years is a sign of strength though?

This made me laugh. But then you started trash talking my clan mates, so perhaps I will give you a reply;

Years is correct. It is exactly six years ago today (Friday the 14th of December 2012) that I was admitted into TOFU. Making me one of the five longest serving members in the clans history.
At the time I had just came off a year long break, I was noticed and recruited by the clan.
Since you think me mediocre, I will tell you the names of the people who played the trial games, the people who vetted me for membership in TOFU.
They are; Dako, Seulessliathan, catnipdreams, Chariot of Fire, Big Whiskey & Master Fenrir.

There was no honeymoon. When they admitted me into the clan, it was with the knowledge that the next war was the CC3 semi-final against KORT. Perhaps the most hyped and anticipated war in CC history. One could guess that these absolute CC legends had reason to believe I could be of some use...

I played my small part in that war. I played my heart out, giving everything I had not to make a mistake. I am truly proud to have been a part of that team, to have played in that war. When it counted I was there for my clan, and I did my part.

So disrespect me if you will. I paid my dues a long time ago. I was part of a team that won the Cup. I did my part.
Instead of talking shit, why don't you go focus on winning your own cup??
This is your shot, and you spend it embarrassing yourself in the forum instead?

You brag about your experience, about having been part of TOFU, while disrespecting Scud and Frog!? People like you are one of the reasons I have stayed. To make sure there is someone who remembers every mistake this clan has made, and can veto if old mistakes ever knock on the door again...

Considering how you have behaved in this thread it warms my heart that this is rockfists watch. You want that cup? You're going to have to claw it from his cold dead hands. With rising stars like .SCuD. and joecoolfrog on the case, led by legends like rock, cof & lou TOFU has room for a mediocre old has-been like myself I can just sit back and smoke my pipe.

Long live The Odd Fellows Union.
& Happy 6th birthday to me

Now... lassies, lads, felines and other Odd creatures, go bring home that Cup please.
Go TOFU!

Oh, and... about that carpet.

[IcePack]

Considering how you have behaved in this thread it warms my heart that this is rockfists watch.

Live look in at the war, betiko is played by Jon Snow while TOFU is played by the Nights Watch. Each TOFU member stabbing their way one victory at a time...for the watch

[loutil]

Just when I thought this thread could not get any more EPIC...

[MTIceman41]

Just when I thought this thread could not get any more EPIC...

Paul and Blitz chime in?

[iAmCaffeine]

I don't usually get down with Arama's posts/humour (although he's a great guy, we just find different things funny), but that was quality right there.

[.SCuD.]

[betiko]

being a mediocre player sticking with a bunch of top notch players for years is a sign of strength though?

This made me laugh. But then you started trash talking my clan mates, so perhaps I will give you a reply;

Years is correct. It is exactly six years ago today (Friday the 14th of December 2012) that I was admitted into TOFU. Making me one of the five longest serving members in the clans history.
At the time I had just came off a year long break, I was noticed and recruited by the clan.
Since you think me mediocre, I will tell you the names of the people who played the trial games, the people who vetted me for membership in TOFU.
They are; Dako, Seulessliathan, catnipdreams, Chariot of Fire, Big Whiskey & Master Fenrir.

There was no honeymoon. When they admitted me into the clan, it was with the knowledge that the next war was the CC3 semi-final against KORT. Perhaps the most hyped and anticipated war in CC history. One could guess that these absolute CC legends had reason to believe I could be of some use...

I played my small part in that war. I played my heart out, giving everything I had not to make a mistake. I am truly proud to have been a part of that team, to have played in that war. When it counted I was there for my clan, and I did my part.

So disrespect me if you will. I paid my dues a long time ago. I was part of a team that won the Cup. I did my part.
Instead of talking shit, why don't you go focus on winning your own cup??
This is your shot, and you spend it embarrassing yourself in the forum instead?

You brag about your experience, about having been part of TOFU, while disrespecting Scud and Frog!? People like you are one of the reasons I have stayed. To make sure there is someone who remembers every mistake this clan has made, and can veto if old mistakes ever knock on the door again...

Considering how you have behaved in this thread it warms my heart that this is rockfists watch. You want that cup? You're going to have to claw it from his cold dead hands. With rising stars like .SCuD. and joecoolfrog on the case, led by legends like rock, cof & lou TOFU has room for a mediocre old has-been like myself I can just sit back and smoke my pipe.

Long live The Odd Fellows Union.
& Happy 6th birthday to me

Now... lassies, lads, felines and other Odd creatures, go bring home that Cup please.
Go TOFU!

Oh, and... about that carpet.

Lol, you know I actually like you John and only have good memories with you; actually I really don't hold any grudge against anybody in TOFU, I enjoyed the time there, then at some point things didn't work out and it all went for the best for everybody... I finally got to join the french clan after years of approaches and wrong timings between each other. Just when the clan started rising to become a top clan...we won our fair share of clan related trophies trust me... then an established top clan that could actually win any competition it enters.
Winning the CC8 would be nice but it doesn't stop me from sleeping at night. We entered those finals as the underdog, and the real final was probably your semi final. So yes, we probably needed the luck factor on our side to stand a chance, which we lacked on the first batch and we are facing an extremely uphill situation. If we can't win, well at least I hope we won't lose by a landslide.

Now about yourself... you are not even participating in a single game here.... you are just a cheerleader. When you participte in wars you just fill in gaps in a few games and your involvment has always been minimum compared to other tofu members, yet you're always the first one to brag in war threads. I just think a little reality check wouldn't do any harm, don't take it personally. Just because you're a nice guy, you can't always expect to get away from the heat.

Scud and joecoolfrog are from 2006.... they are old stock reissued. Only having a bit of fun there with noobies proving how they fit in your ranks, otherwise this thread would only be about exchaging polite compliments, and that's boring as hell. I don't think anybody has any objections against a bit of action here, if that makes me "an embarassment", I really don't care and I really don't see in what way I'm different from my usual online persona. I love to open my big mouth and use a reasonable amount of trolling. But hey... I believe you started the trolling with your first post and you deserved a retaliation from under the bridge.


oh and by the way... you guys can totally complain about Donche's dice in here. I don't know what he did but this week each time he posted something, it was to report some ridiculously good dice. You guys would stand no chance if we were all donches.

[Extreme Ways]

Is donche perhaps female and called Emily?

[Arama86n]

I'm always the first one to brag in war threads? ...WHAT???
If you say so haha.

You are correct that I have never been a build-around player in wars. My map knowledge has never been impressive, and I haven't had much intention of working on that as the years went on and my game-load got smaller and smaller. But from my point of view I have NEVER thumped my chest or accentuated my part in the clans success.
The above post, speaking of my own participation is the very rare exception. I was called out, so I offered my view.

Thanks for the attempted reality check, but I am rather aware of my weaknesses and strengths, I assure you.
I do not bring analytical genius to the table. That said, many players far more strategically gifted than me have been shown the door in TOFU, because there is much else to building a successful team. And this is a team game.

Your last response shows you still have your humor and good nature, good to see. Some of your posts in this thread had me wondering if you'd really lost it.
All good here, I agree that a war final thread should have a little fiery banter. It's tradition!
The poke at me put a smile on my face. As you were good enough to be the first one to attack me personally in four/five years or so, I figured I'd loose both barrels in your general direction. Especially as you were calling my mates out on being new to the scene, someone who'd been around the block should be obliged to respond

P.S. that post I made about the dice was directed at the dice discussion, definitely not towards LHDD. I've been saying that stuff for YEARS.
I have nothing but respect for LHDD, and as you point out, am not playing in this war, so am not interested in offering my unenlightened opinion about how the dice have been. Heartbreaking like usual, I'm sure

[Chariot of Fire]

Is donche perhaps female and called Emily?

The letter 'n' is upside-down

[Arama86n]

Where Is Ms. Wink anyway?
We need to work it into our war conditions that she post minimum once per page in our war threads. <3
And that she lends us her dice when a bug appears in Dakodice v2.76

[trapyoung]

The letter 'n' is upside-down

[DoomYoshi]

[Donelladan]

If you reach the level of Don/Paengars (sorry anyone else in LHDD who is on that level too), I will play you, because your skill level would compel me to take that challenge. Let me know if you think you've made it.

I don't think you know betiko good enough to make such a judgement.
He definitely reached equal level of skill than me. ( kinda the other way around actually). He just became a bit careless after reaching 10k games.

P.S. that post I made about the dice was directed at the dice discussion, definitely not towards LHDD. I've been saying that stuff for YEARS.

If your intention wasn't to insult us, then you should'nt have post your crap. Period.
It's a TOFU / LHDD topic in which LHDD players made a remark about dice luck for TOFU, you can't come here and say stuff like you did and then claim you weren't trying to insult us.
Just not possible. If you think otherwise you're simple-minded.

[.SCuD.]

If you reach the level of Don/Paengars (sorry anyone else in LHDD who is on that level too), I will play you, because your skill level would compel me to take that challenge. Let me know if you think you've made it.

I don't think you know betiko good enough to make such a judgement.
He definitely reached equal level of skill than me. ( kinda the other way around actually). He just became a bit careless after reaching 10k games.

I've seen him play in this war, and some of his moves were subpar at best. No great player would have made those moves.

Yes, you need to play someone a lot to know they ARE great, but you can very quickly see that someone is average, as great players don't make that many poor moves. Great players also aren't so very very bad at analysing the fortunes of their own team... they tend to understand the maths better than that and have the ability to analyse more correctly. betiko fails both of these tests.

So I think I can confidently say that I do know him well enough to make such a judgement. Although you are right, I don't know you or Paengars well enough to make such a judgement. Simply going off your reputation. Perhaps you'll prove me wrong and be average too!

[iAmCaffeine]

If you reach the level of Don/Paengars (sorry anyone else in LHDD who is on that level too), I will play you, because your skill level would compel me to take that challenge. Let me know if you think you've made it.

I don't think you know betiko good enough to make such a judgement.
He definitely reached equal level of skill than me. ( kinda the other way around actually). He just became a bit careless after reaching 10k games.

I've seen him play in this war, and some of his moves were subpar at best. No great player would have made those moves.

Yes, you need to play someone a lot to know they ARE great, but you can very quickly see that someone is average, as great players don't make that many poor moves. Great players also aren't so very very bad at analysing the fortunes of their own team... they tend to understand the maths better than that and have the ability to analyse more correctly. betiko fails both of these tests.

So I think I can confidently say that I do know him well enough to make such a judgement. Although you are right, I don't know you or Paengars well enough to make such a judgement. Simply going off your reputation. Perhaps you'll prove me wrong and be average too!

Either you missed Don's point or just chose to ignore it, but he's saying that betiko has proven he can be a great player previously. These days he doesn't put as much effort into the game as he used to. I think those around at the time can testify that he was a very good player, at a wide variety of game modes too. He can also be emotional. I've seen josko and CoF make bad moves before and say/do stupid things, does that mean they're not or have never been good players? You're not as dense as this posts suggests you are either. Nobody is perfect. Nobody except me anyway.

[ZaBeast]

I also hope that we'll be allowed to pick more trench games in the future, as it's clearly your forte, and you deserve that.

Not sure your leaders got the memo

[rockfist]

Players have ups and downs in form. The more games in you have, the more clan competitions you have been in, the more evident it becomes. I try to time my “ups” for the CC semi finals and finals. My CL and early round CC performance is almost never as good.

[.SCuD.]

If you reach the level of Don/Paengars (sorry anyone else in LHDD who is on that level too), I will play you, because your skill level would compel me to take that challenge. Let me know if you think you've made it.

I don't think you know betiko good enough to make such a judgement.
He definitely reached equal level of skill than me. ( kinda the other way around actually). He just became a bit careless after reaching 10k games.

I've seen him play in this war, and some of his moves were subpar at best. No great player would have made those moves.

Yes, you need to play someone a lot to know they ARE great, but you can very quickly see that someone is average, as great players don't make that many poor moves. Great players also aren't so very very bad at analysing the fortunes of their own team... they tend to understand the maths better than that and have the ability to analyse more correctly. betiko fails both of these tests.

So I think I can confidently say that I do know him well enough to make such a judgement. Although you are right, I don't know you or Paengars well enough to make such a judgement. Simply going off your reputation. Perhaps you'll prove me wrong and be average too!

Either you missed Don's point or just chose to ignore it, but he's saying that betiko has proven he can be a great player previously. These days he doesn't put as much effort into the game as he used to. I think those around at the time can testify that he was a very good player, at a wide variety of game modes too. He can also be emotional. I've seen josko and CoF make bad moves before and say/do stupid things, does that mean they're not or have never been good players? You're not as dense as this posts suggests you are either. Nobody is perfect. Nobody except me anyway.

Or you chose to ignore mine... or internet forums aren't the best way of ensuring accurate and complete communication. I suspect the second, but perhaps not!

The evidence I've seen would suggest that betiko was never a great player. I believe his knowledge and ability isn't that of someone who was once great, and deteriorated.

People can go from great, to not great, it happens all the time. There is usually evidence of their previous greatness in their speech and understanding. Most of us have examples in our own personal lives. Mine? I used to be a great poker player, and I'm not a great poker player anymore. I don't play enough, I'm careless, and I get distracted. I can still get by and do make money out of it, but I'm quite average. I could hold a conversation with a currently great player though, and they would find it very clear that I was once a great player, even though my knowledge is rusty.

I recently I played poker against a businessman who claimed he was a great poker player in the past. He was never great, that became very clear within 30 seconds. He simply misunderstood so many basic concepts of the game. He knew some buzzwords, but didn't actually understand their application. A great player may not always follow those concepts, but they will do so knowingly, with good reason. This guy just misunderstood them.

I get that same feeling with betiko. Beyond the constant whinging and whining (which doesn't make someone bad in itself), he simply doesn't seem to grasp aspects of the game in the way that I believe a great player who lost his touch would.

Perhaps I could be convinced otherwise. Perhaps his incessant need to prove that his complaining is justified creates a public refusal to admit that black is not white. Perhaps internally he knows he was wrong? If that's the case, then hell, maybe he could have been great? Anything is possible, but on evidence, it's unlikely.

Just to clarify, I think betiko is good. It's always difficult to tell in team games, but he seems to be good. Perhaps we just have a different definition of the word great

[.SCuD.]

I also hope that we'll be allowed to pick more trench games in the future, as it's clearly your forte, and you deserve that.

Not sure your leaders got the memo

I only just learned that TOFU has a position on this. I haven't spoken to the leaders about it, but I'm sure they have good reason for that stance. I could well be missing something.

[Extreme Ways]

show

I don't think I was a great player in Betiko's prime, but I can attest to the fact that he used to be quite strong. I dont think thats important though, neither is this whole discussion. Also I dont think that it's easy to actually decay in skill much here. I think Betiko just doesnt care as much anymore and doesnt spend much time analyzing positions - much like my poly play for example. Based on a lot of my poly games I would either barely make it into TOFU, or not make it at all.

[loutil]

I have seen Betiko play at a high level and I have seen him play at a low level (our current WWII Australia game). Not sure how to define "great" vs "really good". I have never considered myself great. But, I try to use probability to guide my moves and make less mistakes than my opponent. I have witnessed what seemed like great play in players like Joko, CoF and Kaskavel. But, that is clearly subjective.

[rockfist]

I would define "great" play as being able to see strategies that others cannot that take an opponent by surprise (in a good way - I've been surprised by stupid play often too). I would define "really good" play as being technically sound in your drops/forts/general strategy. There can be greatness in how one reads a drop initially, which is why I don't think most conquest maps allow for greatness (Pot Mosbi would be an exception to that). There can be greatness in knowing what an opponent will try to do and countering it, not when its obvious...(they've dropped 3/4ths and you've dropped 1/4th of Oceania on classic they will go for the fourth), but when its not obvious.

[betiko]

If you reach the level of Don/Paengars (sorry anyone else in LHDD who is on that level too), I will play you, because your skill level would compel me to take that challenge. Let me know if you think you've made it.

I don't think you know betiko good enough to make such a judgement.
He definitely reached equal level of skill than me. ( kinda the other way around actually). He just became a bit careless after reaching 10k games.

I've seen him play in this war, and some of his moves were subpar at best. No great player would have made those moves.

Yes, you need to play someone a lot to know they ARE great, but you can very quickly see that someone is average, as great players don't make that many poor moves. Great players also aren't so very very bad at analysing the fortunes of their own team... they tend to understand the maths better than that and have the ability to analyse more correctly. betiko fails both of these tests.

So I think I can confidently say that I do know him well enough to make such a judgement. Although you are right, I don't know you or Paengars well enough to make such a judgement. Simply going off your reputation. Perhaps you'll prove me wrong and be average too!

Either you missed Don's point or just chose to ignore it, but he's saying that betiko has proven he can be a great player previously. These days he doesn't put as much effort into the game as he used to. I think those around at the time can testify that he was a very good player, at a wide variety of game modes too. He can also be emotional. I've seen josko and CoF make bad moves before and say/do stupid things, does that mean they're not or have never been good players? You're not as dense as this posts suggests you are either. Nobody is perfect. Nobody except me anyway.

Or you chose to ignore mine... or internet forums aren't the best way of ensuring accurate and complete communication. I suspect the second, but perhaps not!

The evidence I've seen would suggest that betiko was never a great player. I believe his knowledge and ability isn't that of someone who was once great, and deteriorated.

People can go from great, to not great, it happens all the time. There is usually evidence of their previous greatness in their speech and understanding. Most of us have examples in our own personal lives. Mine? I used to be a great poker player, and I'm not a great poker player anymore. I don't play enough, I'm careless, and I get distracted. I can still get by and do make money out of it, but I'm quite average. I could hold a conversation with a currently great player though, and they would find it very clear that I was once a great player, even though my knowledge is rusty.

I recently I played poker against a businessman who claimed he was a great poker player in the past. He was never great, that became very clear within 30 seconds. He simply misunderstood so many basic concepts of the game. He knew some buzzwords, but didn't actually understand their application. A great player may not always follow those concepts, but they will do so knowingly, with good reason. This guy just misunderstood them.

I get that same feeling with betiko. Beyond the constant whinging and whining (which doesn't make someone bad in itself), he simply doesn't seem to grasp aspects of the game in the way that I believe a great player who lost his touch would.

Perhaps I could be convinced otherwise. Perhaps his incessant need to prove that his complaining is justified creates a public refusal to admit that black is not white. Perhaps internally he knows he was wrong? If that's the case, then hell, maybe he could have been great? Anything is possible, but on evidence, it's unlikely.

Just to clarify, I think betiko is good. It's always difficult to tell in team games, but he seems to be good. Perhaps we just have a different definition of the word great

I don't pretend to be one of the greatest, what I do pretend is that I understand perfectly the things you say, but with all the depth of my experience, and extensive knowledge of past and present CC players, and a very broad knowledge of game modes and ALL maps this site offers. Some of the things you say are just arrogant little prick material that doesn't know what he's talking about.
Laughing Cavalier once wrote a great post about what is being a great CC player all about. I think everybody loved that post because it was so true. Time and effort are some of the most important variables.
I believe that a site full of people with interests in strategy games have an intelligence above average; that the majority has the potential to be really good but doesn't bother. How many times have I faced remarcably intelligent players with fantastic processig capabilties? I think the smartest and most skilled players on CC are the multiplayer freestyle speed escalating players. That race is kind of exctinct now as they are mostly gone (extreme ways is one of them though). Just play a guy like king of gods or great ollie, or even josko in those type of games and your mind will hurt. That's the most hard core CC you'll ever play.
Some players just don't bother with team games, or with game selection. I just think you are complete TOP material SCUD.
The type of player that is all about his score, game selection, very little experience yet thinks he'son the very TOP of the food chain because of the time and effort he dedicates to his games.... yeah, I think that defines pretty well what I think of you. a TOP player that has never been general and yet sees himself as the conqueror. You chose the wrong clan mate.

Anyways, regarding poker, the game has evolved greatly in the past 10 years and players are now more of math geniuses and less of instinct and body language experts. Would you agree on what I said before though? That poker is less based on luck than CC? Do you think it's normal to be able to do the kind of bombing I did on you on stalingrad last night? What is even the point of caring a lot about this game?

This is a game for fun. Ever since I'm a dad I just stopped caring, for me this game is just to have fun. Most old time players have either left the site (already did a couple of times) or come and go but are not as serious as they were before. Ask COF, pretty sure he isn't as involved as he used to at his finest. The clan scene is not as it used to, people play much more casually than a few years ago.

Just be more humble, don't judge books by their covers (especially if you're a head hunter...). And just remember that in the kingdom of the blindmen, the one eyed are kings.