we need to talk about IP...

[Keefie]

WHY ? What is the point of this thread ?

I like you Llama but why do you need to get involved with petty tittle tattle and gossip ?

I was affected by IP's sudden departure more than most and I was angry for a few days. Once I understood why he did what he did I forgave him and we remain friends.

The ranking will be reborn in some shape or form in hopefully the not too distant future.

[Dukasaur]

While I may not like what he did, he's correct that his files are his intellectual property. This is the essence of an all-volunteer organization. We've lost numerous resources this way -- the original graphics for the bulk of the maps, the original scoreboards for the bulk of the tournaments, the bulk of the original greasemonkey scripts, and much, much more. That's just life in an all-volunteer operation.

The map foundry is clear that all art must be signed over and belong to CC. The coding isn't held to the same standard.

There may be a requirement that the artwork is signed over, but it is not preserved. Look through most of the old map threads and all you see are broken links. The only thing that is saved is the final version. All the preliminary versions and component artwork are dependent on the goodwill of the mapmaker to continue hosting. For a multitude of reasons, they eventually cease doing so and the artwork is lost.

[Metsfanmax]

My reasons for leaving Team CC in the past were broadly similar to the reasons that IcePack eventually bailed. I can understand what happened and why he did it.

It does seem to me that since then, IcePack has taken a certain sort of perverse glee in CC's woes; it almost seems like he wants CC to fail now that he has been mistreated by it (cf. his posts in the "CC has been declining" thread). I do not agree with that, and it seems a little sad to me that this is the situation we are now in. My view is that if you ever get to the point where you feel burned by the site, just leave, don't stain an otherwise well-deserved legacy.

[riskllama]

BOOM, metsfanmax wins this thread.

[nietzsche]

why? for saying the obvious? come on.

[HitRed]

At my business when an employee leaves even on Good terms they are locked out of every computer and even the parking lot. It's just smart. I would treat a volunteer or part timer the same. If they are disgruntled, I'll walk you out the door and lock it.

HitRed

[MTIceman41]

My reasons for leaving Team CC in the past were broadly similar to the reasons that IcePack eventually bailed. I can understand what happened and why he did it.

It does seem to me that since then, IcePack has taken a certain sort of perverse glee in CC's woes; it almost seems like he wants CC to fail now that he has been mistreated by it (cf. his posts in the "CC has been declining" thread). I do not agree with that, and it seems a little sad to me that this is the situation we are now in. My view is that if you ever get to the point where you feel burned by the site, just leave, don't stain an otherwise well-deserved legacy.

+1

[riskllama]

why? for saying the obvious? come on.

somebody had to, nietz...

[riskllama]

mets, how exactly has IP been mistreated by CC?

[Keefie]

mets, how exactly has IP been mistreated by CC?

How would Mets know ?????

What info are you after Mr Gossip ???? You should set up a private gossip forum for all the old fish wives on here.

[IcePack]

WHY ? What is the point of this thread?

Well, I had fully intended on not responding because llama is just trying to stir shit up for me and has continued to just harass me in live chat and forum areas, and admitted to essentially trying to push me off the site to go away (all because I foed him). But now that others have gotten involved and theres a lot of stuff that really needs to be addressed / misinformation, I've decided I'll address some of the comments made here.

That way I can address specific things outright, instead of letting people gossip / spread false crap around.

whilst Mad has made a peaceful transition to CC "civilian life", IP has not - in fact, he's pretty much done the exact opposite.

There is no requirement that all ex mods lead perfect lives after they've left. I have no intention of being destructive, but doesn't mean I will stay silent on things that happened or things I see that are wrong. Its important to note that me removing my work is not destructive, while you may not agree and feel its a shitty thing for me to do, doesn't mean its destructive. Could it have been handled differently? Absolutely. But I had a firm stance going into it and communicated with those I needed to prior to taking any actions. There was a LOT of communication with the Admin that you / others aren't privy too.

that all changed today when i went looking for the clan rankings. apparently, instead of merely abdicating his position of Clan Director he has taken down all his posts relating to that area of the forum in some sort of butthurt induced rage, claiming they are his "intellectual property" or some such nonsense. what in the actual f*ck???

That didn't just happen, that happened right after I left my position. I deleted my photo bucket and other various personal accounts that were only used for CC (as I didn't need them anymore) so all the links broke anyway. Regarding IP, thats separate, but it is in fact true. I communicated my concerns with admins prior to taking any actions, I also told them it was a hill I was willing to die on. They made their own decisions, and I made mine. I removed all my support for the site, which includes my IP, time, money, etc.

This does not require me to leave. I have formed friendships on the site that continue even today, and some of those count on me for things. Again, contrary to being destructive and saying "f*** it" and abandoning them, I've chosen to stay on and make sure a mostly smooth transition. Whether I ultimately stay as a freemium, or go remains to be seen. But there are people I have made commitments to which I will not let down.

Removing my support of the site after years of volunteering and spending literally countless hours per day / week here was not a easy decision. But its something I believe was right for me, for various reasons. I dont expect anyone to understand, nor agree with everything I've done. But at the end of the day, it has to be a decision I am comfortable making for myself, which I did and am comfortable with. People who have actually communicated about it tend to understand it afterwards, perhaps not 100%, or right away, or sometimes even at all, but I've managed to keep peaceful relations with most.

Your continued attempts to get under my skin and harass me in live chat and in the forums in what you referred to me being your "special project" to get me to quit says more about you trying to be destructive then it does for me, llama.

it was one thing to take take potshots at duk & TeeGee and to post the dwindling # of users in the "CC is declining" thread, but to delete and deny access to all his old posts is tantamount to industrial sabotage, imo. why isn't he already guested for this type of behaviour?
makes no sense to me why BW & KA are allowing someone who is actively trying to destroy this place still be a part of it...*shrugs*

If by taking potshots you mean calling out issues when I see it, sure. I always posted in the CC is declining thread, I do so more often because 1) we are hitting record low numbers, 2) I'm no longer spending 8 hours a day volunteering here, so I have more time for little stuff like that if I am slow at work. Has nothing to do with me being "destructive" or "having a perverse glee in CC's woes" as Mets put it.

I actually avoided being "destructive" where I could, groovysmurf had taken over Conquer Clue, and while I was deleting all my google documents that I no longer needed, I notified her in advance so she could copy those over to her own account prior to my deleting my copies. The only thing that was deleted that shouldn't have been was the CC8 Prediction Contest, when I removed the CC8 Bracket from my challonge account I forgot the prediction contest was attached to it. I notified the team and apologized, as I wouldn't have done that had I realized / remembered about the predictions.

If BW really rubbed IP the wrong way that wasnt very smart.

I've seen a few people reference wham was the cause of this, I will say publicly that while he didn't help the situation he didn't cause it either.

And if I were in his shoes, your comments would really not make me try to help.

Ding ding ding. Harassing me about it or making threats like some have isn't the way to change my mind.

during any regime change, there is usually some sort of "handover" meeting or meetings - going over the troublesome bits of the day to day running of things, no? doesn't sound like this has happened in the Clan dept. does it? it's one thing to say "f*ck it, i've had enough of this shit", but to chuck a wrench into the gearbox on your way out the door is a bit of a dick move, imo.

I've seen this referenced at least one other time / location, and its total BS. This hasn't happened when I was took over Beta Team Lead, nor did it happen when I took over CD Team Lead. One very key thing to point out, is the person I left in charge didn't need to be taught anything. He already had been taught everything that was needed, beyond one or two very small things which an admin could have easily handled. They went a different direction for whatever reason (I dont claim to pretend to know why, and unlike other people in this thread I'm not going to pretend I know shit I wasn't there for) but if they change leadership to the least experienced guy there, that doesn't then require me to suddenly train the guy. I left a perfectly functional Department Deputy in charge. There were also perfectly acceptable alternatives should the need have arisen. So again, total BS misinformation. I didn't throw a wrench in the gearbox and leave them totally without any leadership or knowledge. The admins asked me to come back and help train, which I declined. There were also others they could have asked (but didn't, but that was their choice). But making this a "IcePack left them totally untrained and unprepared!!!" is BS. I've spent enough time volunteering here and I made sure that a functioning Department was left behind because I trained before the situation ever came up.

I made specific efforts throughout my time as both Beta and Clan lead to cross train people after they joined the team to ensure if someone left, the Department would continue to function and not rely on one person for ANY position. (Team Leader included)

Its also important to note, the F400 never was a Clan Director activity. I had taken that on long before I ever was a CC volunteer, so my not training someone for the ranking had no implications on my team besides the need for the Clan area to come up with another ranking system (something that had in place prior to F400, such as a coaches poll, was one of many solutions) or the site could opt to potentially come up with their own official ranking system (something I / others had worked on quite a bit behind the scenes in the past, but never finished) if they wanted to go that direction. But had nothing to do with Team Leader duties etc or lack of training.

The ranking program likely still exists in his possession. Maybe we can cut a deal or make peace. Has anyone asked him? He might already be happy. The site is now ultra clean. The crackdown worked.

People who need to know, know my stance. The admin asked me originally when I left, since then no one has reached out.

IP put in about as much work on CC for FREE as he did his normally paid job, as did Mad.
Bigwham continues to show his lack of appreciation for some of these mods who bust their ass for free so he can make $$$$$$$$.
Some of them have finally realized, WTF am i doing busting my ass for someone who doesnt give 2 shits.
Do i think he shoukd have deleted everything he contributed? No, but i sure as hell respect him for having the balls to make a stand.
Bigwham will be fucked when the rest of them wake up and stop working for free.

The F400 was far from the only thing I contributed. While Wham wasn't the reason for me going, he certainly took no action to keep me around
or get involved in resolving the situation.

While I may not like what he did, he's correct that his files are his intellectual property. This is the essence of an all-volunteer organization. We've lost numerous resources this way -- the original graphics for the bulk of the maps, the original scoreboards for the bulk of the tournaments, the bulk of the original greasemonkey scripts, and much, much more. That's just life in an all-volunteer operation.

Exactly. There have been many 3rd Party Script / Add ons that were abandoned / lost because lack of support. F400 is no different, it has lost its support.

You try and destroy or disrupt the site, it is likely you will be removed.

isn't that what IP is currently doing, tho? i mean, it started out innocently enough - just another disgruntled ex teamCC member w/an axe to grind, but the deletion & withholding of information seems to be taking it a bit far, no?

Not at all what I'm doing. As Duka has said, and I have said in private discussions with people who matter on the subject CC / TeamCC made choices. Those choices are theirs to make. I have my own choices that I'm entitled to make, things like what I do with my time, my money, and my IP.

still a dick move of epic proportions, tho.

Sure. I disagree as described above, there are reasons for it. But I can understand why some / you think that.
I can say the same thing for some of things done / said by TeamCC as well. But I feel without providing a ton of the details, I've at least partially explained why / how I approached the situation.

The map foundry is clear that all art must be signed over and belong to CC. The coding isn't held to the same standard.

This has nothing to do with coding. Not everything that happens here is CC's property.

Not trying to stir anything but I can say you are way off the whole understanding of "why", making decision like this involve more than just a "pissing contest", it takes years of aggravation and much more than couple of awful thread popping within those Forum...the only way you could understand clearly is to become part of CC Team and start taking your own time creating and developing things that would make the site better

Mad knows whats up. Preach.

...

Has nothing to do with topic at hand other then trying to add to llama trying to push me off the site.

My reasons for leaving Team CC in the past were broadly similar to the reasons that IcePack eventually bailed. I can understand what happened and why he did it.

It does seem to me that since then, IcePack has taken a certain sort of perverse glee in CC's woes; it almost seems like he wants CC to fail now that he has been mistreated by it (cf. his posts in the "CC has been declining" thread). I do not agree with that, and it seems a little sad to me that this is the situation we are now in. My view is that if you ever get to the point where you feel burned by the site, just leave, don't stain an otherwise well-deserved legacy.

I'm curious how you know what my reasons were? We haven't discussed it together at all. And very few know the full / actual reasons. As I pointed out, I had made posts in the CC has been declining thread during my volunteer period as well for information / charting purposes, and has nothing to do with me trying to "destroy" anything. Look in the thread, many strong contributors post there frequently.

I dont want CC to fail. I specifically told the admin I wish them no ill intent, dont wish to destroy anything, and in fact pointed out a lot of things that the admin forgot to take me off of / fix that I COULD have been very destructive with, so they could put someone else / remove my permissions. I've no wish to see them fail, and while I might be more critical / vocal of calling out of issues, it has nothing to do with me wishing to see them fail.
Lot of my actions are actual to counter things that have been PM'd to me, pointing out issues to be addressed privately later.

I have told people who need to know my position on staying / leaving. I can't control what others view as "my legacy" but, if its built of totally misguided threads or misinformation like llama is putting out, I wouldn't be surprised that people feel its "stained". I accepted the fact when I left people would think poorly of it, same goes for the legacy. They'll think what they think, regardless of whether they know the reasons for it or not. Most have already made up their mind.

At my business when an employee leaves even on Good terms they are locked out of every computer and even the parking lot. It's just smart. I would treat a volunteer or part timer the same. If they are disgruntled, I'll walk you out the door and lock it.

HitRed

I'm not disgruntled. I still speak to quite a few members of TeamCC and maintain friendships. There are very few / specific people I have issues with. I have no beef with the site, other then how some have in the past / continue to handle some situations.

[Metsfanmax]

I dont want CC to fail. I specifically told the admin I wish them no ill intent

Well we've gone from -5.7 per day to -7.9 per day.

-174 in 22 days or 3% of the site

Live look in at TeamCC

[IcePack]

I dont want CC to fail. I specifically told the admin I wish them no ill intent

Well we've gone from -5.7 per day to -7.9 per day.

-174 in 22 days or 3% of the site

Live look in at TeamCC

Apparently Mets doesn’t have a sense of humor. Maybe I should explain it then.

Posting the drop stats isn’t wishing them ill or wanting them to fail. That’s posting stats. You know, the whole intent of the thread (plus ways to discuss improvements etc have taken place there)

Making light of the disarray is called a joke. The picture is funny. Seriously

THAT is how you interpret being destructive and me somehow wanting the entire website to fail? Really?

[Donelladan]

I think it should be quite obvious that IcePack had the power to make a lot more damages to the clan world when he was leader of the clan team.
This would have been really a dick move and he would probably have been guested.

As far as I know he didn't misused the power he had as a team leader. He just asked to be removed. Therefore I don't think it's fair to call IcePack destructive.

Losing the F400 annoyed me like it probably did every clan players that care about clans, but that's basically the only thing we lost when IcePack left. ( well including IcePack )

CC has now the info to build a new scoreboard since all clan wars are registered in the clan tab ( which I believe is a work that was mainly done by and thanks to IcePack in the first place).

I do wish IcePack would give his database, that would be enough to keep F400 going with the formula, not so much work if we have the database.
But I think CC admin should be able to get the required info out quite easily.

[iAmCaffeine]

Riskllama and harassing people is nothing new lmao.

[DoomYoshi]

Well now that IP is gone, the last opposition to the surrender button is gone. We can now have unrestricted access to it.

[Keefie]

To be fair the Clan Tab was developed under Leehar's watch and led by Chemefreak.

[Keefie]

Riskllama and harassing people is nothing new lmao.

I find this whole thread quite distasteful, akin to washing dirty laundry in public.

I've told the OP this privately in no uncertain terms. I also told him that whatever problems we've had arising from IP's departure, he's still in credit as far as I'm concerned.

[nietzsche]

i've gotten withdrawal symptoms when i've quit CC in the past. Can't imagine how it is for someone who actually does something of value here. I think IP needs to take a break because this is surely not good for him. I think CC needs to pay IP for a weekend of spa and sexy massages as a thank you for all the services provided over the years.

10/10.
would read again.

nietzsche wins this thread.

[Mad777]

This demonstrate my opinion with the way Forum are handled...this type of thread should have been locked and removed from day one for not being constructive to help the site, all it does is exposing member(s) who made decision but rather than let it within the group of people that are directly concerned/affected, it is used by a troll (llama) who takes pride exposing something that is not his business.

...maybe you should pay attention of the game rather than missing turn because you prefer spending time to troll in the Forum, missing turn is as annoying as this type of thread.

[Donelladan]

I am not sure if this thread was the perfect answer, but it's a bit annoying to have a key member of the clan world withdrawing without getting any explanation.
Most clan members have no idea what happened.
Regular forums users have a small idea of what happened, if they read some specific section of the forum.

I understand no one wants to make a mess, but I am not sure it looks good to give no explanation at all. One could assume you both ( IcePack and Mad ) resigned because you had a fight with owner on trivial matter. We don't know a thing. I think an official explanation of what happened and what are the consequences would have been helpful for the community.
Right now we can imagine the worst.

[IcePack]

I am not sure if this thread was the perfect answer, but it's a bit annoying to have a key member of the clan world withdrawing without getting any explanation.
Most clan members have no idea what happened.
Regular forums users have a small idea of what happened, if they read some specific section of the forum.

I understand no one wants to make a mess, but I am not sure it looks good to give no explanation at all. One could assume you both ( IcePack and Mad ) resigned because you had a fight with owner on trivial matter. We don't know a thing. I think an official explanation of what happened and what are the consequences would have been helpful for the community.
Right now we can imagine the worst.

You’re asking a site that doesn’t give announcement for basic updates to air dirty laundry and reasons for each site volunteer departures? Some of that is private, some of it isn’t. But nowhere do the volunteers sign up to have full exposure of their lives or decisions.

I’m sorry that you are annoyed, but the information that was relevant was provided to the public (who to talk to once I left). Some people have chosen to make big statements after they left, some haven’t. That’s up to personal choice. But your annoyance doesn’t mean that I need to air my dirty laundry out in public to satisfy everyone’s curiosity or foe them to weigh in on and hear personal details / private conversations.

There’s plenty of gossip on the topic already and people sharing “inside” information without knowing full scope, and there’s always two (or more) sides to every issue. I think you have to understand / respect that people like Mad or myself wouldn’t leave over something trivial, after all the years and time we put in.

[Mad777]

...same here, everything I did and fought during my time and needed to be publicize are out there, being a Mods and more a department Leader, there is things that are striclty reserve to whom it concern.
Not everything has to be published to the public audience

[TheForgivenOne]

I'm not disgruntled. I still speak to quite a few members of TeamCC and maintain friendships. There are very few / specific people I have issues with. I have no beef with the site, other then how some have in the past / continue to handle some situations.

IP Totally ignores me LC. Totally. He probably has PM restrictions of "If sender is TFO, delete it, burn it, E X T E R M I N A T E it!"

But I always had a respect for IP. He was (Well, is) someone that I went to to ask questions, and he was always upfront and honest with me. Every time I've talked with him in LC since he left? Same thing. He's the same person to me. I haven't treated him differently, he hasn't treated me differently.

Do I agree with how he has handled somethings since he left? Perhaps not, but that's his choice. Is he destructive? Hell no. He certainly didn't pull a Wicked. I got burnt out in my own way 4 years ago, but I left the team in my own way. IP left in his way.

If a certain part of a website solely depends on 1 volunteer being there to work it, well, perhaps it needs to be revisited.