CL8 Discussion Area

[IcePack]

What happened in the LHDD-TOP games?
I'm not surprised by TOP beating Pack that much, but I thought it may be a lot harder for them against LHDD? Is it just that their wins finished more quickly, and LHDD are still to grind some games out?

Posted in F400 thread, RL thread, and I think one other place? But I'll copy it here as well:

Note a small change:

In trying to streamline our CD efforts, and as some people have requested CL / RL entries are removed from their clan warfare tabs earlier instead of the end of the competition etc. to remove "clutter".
We will begin removing those CL & RL entries to "completed" as soon as I've entered them into the F400 database.

Thanks
IcePack

[rockfist]

No TOP creamed them. I'm sure they played very well against LHDD, but I am guessing that lady luck was also against LHDD. Most matches between top five clans are at worst 6-2 affairs but usually 5-3 if one side wins and more often than not 4-4.

[Donelladan]

Indeed, there is no wins coming for us, and we have been crushed. As rockfist said, TOP played very well, and nothing seemed to worked for us. Hopefully the rest of the league will show we are still here And we hope to face TOP in the CC7

[MagnusGreeol]

€[≠≠≠≠≠[:::::::::::::::::H∆PPY::HOLID∆YS::CL∆N::WORLD::::::::::::::::>

- Just want to wish everyone the best this holiday season, Another year in the book, Hope 2017 treats all well! ")

-Sincerely
-\M∆G-MICH∆EL/-♎

[josko.ri]

While at the same time I don't file regular C&A report because I don't have time for digging and researching if this is widely used practice by TOP clan or just several isolated examples done during the mini war versus my clan, there are already 4 cases in less than one turn played in which a sitter, who is in 3 of 4 cases the most experienced player on the map from the entire team, plays a turn for a player who was earlier that day able to take the turn by himself yet he didn't do it and left the turn for the sitter to play. FreeFalling123 warned us in advance that he expects that our turns in Hive game will be played by original players and not by sitters otherwise he will question integrity of rules for that game, yet at the same time I witnessed him and others from TOP clan to sit in repeated occasions for players who were normally playing their turns in other games earlier that day but somehow didn't play their turn in questioned clan games.

I would like CD moderators to look at the case and make ruling, because TOP clan already took serious strategical advantage by numerous turns played by sitters who are several times more experienced on given maps than original players in round 1 which is strategically the most important moment in the game, especially in unlimited fort games (2 of 4 cases).

Case 1 (the most extreme one):
Game 17122839 nibotha: FF for nibs... time was getting low
At the same time while nibotha could play his turn in the Usa 21 game, he normally played turns in numerous other games, including 16 turns in other games just 2.30 hours before FreeFalling sat for him. In total, he played his own turns in 33 of 34 active games during that day yet he did not play the Usa 21 turn but intentionally left it to the sitter to play, who is team leader and five times more experienced on Usa 21 map than nibotha.

Game 17129921, Game 17129900, Game 17129879, Game 17126541, Game 17126540, Game 17126539, Game 17126538, Game 17126537, Game 17109300 Game 17104754 Game 17104753 Game 17104752 Game 17104751 Game 17056143 Game 17053783 Game 17053779 turns in 16 games played by nibotha just 2.30 hours before FreeFalling sat for him!
Game 17125916 Game 17125915 Game 17125913 Game 17125912 played 10 hours before FreeFalling sat for him
Game 17125914 played 12 hours before FreeFalling sat for him
Game 17105609 played 13 hours before FreeFalling sat for him
Game 17129932, Game 17104750 played 14 hours before FreeFalling sat for him

Cases 2 and 3:
Game 17122830 BIG_John: - Mags in4 BigJ -♎
At the same time while Big_John could play his turn in the Rail south america game, he normally played turns in other games yet he left to the sitter to play his clan game turn:

Game 17129829 played 20 hours before Mags sat for him
Game 17130946 played 20.30 hours before Mags sat for him

Game 17122838 BIG_John: macken for BJ, low time
At the same time while BIG_John could play his turn in the World 21 game, he normally played turns in other games yet he left to the sitter macken to play his clan game turn. In addition, macken is seven times more experienced on World 21 map than BIG_John.

Game 17129829 played 14.30 hours before macken sat for him
Game 17130946 played 15 hours before macken sat for him

Case 4:
Game 17122837 jdw35: FF here... JD had internet problems last night
At the same time while jdw35 could play his turn in the Hive game, he normally played turns in other games and even joined several new Guide games yet he left to the sitter to play his clan game turn. In total, he played his own turns in 16 of 17 active games during that day yet he did not play the Hive turn which was left to the sitter to play who is leader of the team and is three more times experienced on Hive map than jdw35.

Game 17134675 joined new game 16 hours before FreeFalling sat for him
Game 17137098, Game 17137041 joined new games 18 hours before FreeFalling sat for him
Game 17113809 played 18 hours before FreeFalling sat for him
Game 17136726 joined new game 20.30 hours before FreeFalling sat for him
Game 17122711, Game 17045633, Game 16888599 played 21 hours before FreeFalling sat for him

[macken]

Game 17122838 BIG_John: macken for BJ, low time
At the same time while BIG_John could play his turn in the World 21 game, he normally played turns in other games yet he left to the sitter macken to play his clan game turn. In addition, macken is seven times more experienced on World 21 map than BIG_John.

Game 17129829 played 14.30 hours before macken sat for him
Game 17130946 played 15 hours before macken sat for him

I will answer you comment about my turn in W2.1
I took the turn of BIG_John, 1 hour before the timeout.
BIG_John said me he was unable to take it, and I took it.

The game you said 17129829, he played 2 times, 16 hours before W2.1, and 18 h after W2.1.
You think that that are the same time??? 16 h before and 18 h after it?

[josko.ri]

BIG_John said me he was unable to take it, and I took it.

If he was able to take his turn in Game 17129829 14.30 hours before you sat for him, then he was also able to play the World 21 turn at the same time.
How do you explain that he is able to take turn in one game, but at the same time he is unable in another one?

[Extreme Ways]

To explain how I interpret Josko's accusation:

He means that those who missed did deliberately not take it when they still could, because discussions within the team were not finalized or whatever. Sometimes you plan to be online about ~1h before a turn expires and you get stuck in traffic or whatever, but Josko found it suspicious that this happened so much that he thinks it's deliberate.

I.e. I play other turns, but my team hasn't responded yet to my plans in USA2.1 so I leave it be so someone can take the emergency sit while I head to bed or something.

Please correct me if I interpret you wrongly Josko.

[josko.ri]

To explain how I interpret Josko's accusation:

He means that those who missed did deliberately not take it when they still could, because discussions within the team were not finalized or whatever. Sometimes you plan to be online about ~1h before a turn expires and you get stuck in traffic or whatever, but Josko found it suspicious that this happened so much that he thinks it's deliberate.

I.e. I play other turns, but my team hasn't responded yet to my plans in USA2.1 so I leave it be so someone can take the emergency sit while I head to bed or something.

Please correct me if I interpret you wrongly Josko.

Yes exactly, this is how I meant my accusation to be.

[MagnusGreeol]

- Big_John had whatapped me asking if I could help cover for him because his internet went down, his turns after he had to go to the library to take them and asked me to keep an eye on his wars because he can't live at the library, Just more nonsense we have to deal with I guess.

[josko.ri]

What about nibotha playing turns in 16 different games just 2.30 hours before FreeFalling123 sat for him in Usa 2.1?

Was he unable to take the Usa 2.1 turn in addition to the 16 other games which he normally played?

[fairman]

I don't want to read all this. But it happens to me that :
I always play on PC. Sometimes you're away, you know how to play your individual game on phone; But for clan games on difficult game you ask to be covered.
I already did it and sam or Don covered me.

I don't know wat happens with TOP, but if they have more points than LHDD, it seems obvious that they deserved a 10 points penalty. If S&M has more points than LHDD the accusation of josko is clearly wrong and deserved a 10 points penalty for S&M. In all the other case S&M and TOP deserved a 5 points penalty each.
Let's organize a vote with other clan?

[Extreme Ways]

I much prefer a reward of 5 points for TOFU for clarifying what Josko meant.

[PaulatPeace]

Hello Everyone,

TOP does not ever sit for it's players unless time is running low, or we have been asked to do so because of extenuating circumstances. We all know what these circumstances can be and how they can come up unexpectedly. We welcome any scrutiny of our games if the mods choose to do so.

I have known Josko for a while now and consider him an exceptional player. I have also stated in chat recently that I am sure S&M has good reasons for sitting for their players as we do.

I recently received this PM from another clan about S&M member Bruceswar:

just giving you heads up on him
he joined s&m hive game but he missed a game turn on 11-1
and last couple of games he managed to missed every single turn for last 10 or so days

TOP chose not to act on this or report it in any way. It was brought up in a game Bruceswar had just joined with us in an effort to provide an opportunity to correct the situation before the game began if indeed he was not going to play his turns. It was not meant as an insult or to start a war of accusations which have no foundation.

I sincerely hope this can be reconciled without further insult and offense. Let's just play our best and have a good competition.

Sincerely,

Paul

[macken]

BIG_John said me he was unable to take it, and I took it.

If he was able to take his turn in Game 17129829 14.30 hours before you sat for him, then he was also able to play the World 21 turn at the same time.
How do you explain that he is able to take turn in one game, but at the same time he is unable in another one?

Are not 14,30 h before, as you point.
To be exact are 16,40 h before the timeout in the other game. That means only 7,20 h from the start of his turn. In a quad team.
Taking in account that I'm in Spain, with 6 hours of difference.
Taking in account that I have my own life, at work, and the other members too...

One try to do this in a good way, talking about the moves, and doing the things of your real life. We have 24 hours to make the move. We try to do and we do.

Only in the case that one have not real life, work, family, obligations, and can be all the time in front of the pc to make the movements, then all is perfect, but is not the case of the most. (I hope)

I see normal take one turn in a game, and not take in other game that still I have 16-17 hours to play and is a quad game. If more later I have problems and I can't take, that can happend. But not big problem, because the move are normally agreed by all, and only have to be executed.

I suppose that this happend a lot of times and are not a problem.
So what are the problem behind? Why all this now?

Seems that all this become after a comment about Bruceswar aligned in your team Game 17122837. He down to cadet and seems are not taking his turns.
And after this comment you start to talk all this about us.

I have to say that we are playing fair and respecting the rules. We make teams with players that can play.
We have players that in this moment are not able to play as can be Great-Ollie, Chuuck and other for exemple, and we not put them in our teams.
We take our turns in time.
In case emergency, we try to not miss the turn and cover it. As the rules are.

I will not point nothing about any team that make this. That is not the point.

[iAmCaffeine]

What about nibotha playing turns in 16 different games just 2.30 hours before FreeFalling123 sat for him in Usa 2.1?

Was he unable to take the Usa 2.1 turn in addition to the 16 other games which he normally played?

That does sound bad in all honesty lol.

FF123 has been covering turns with games against me, but I don't bother to see if that player has been taking other turns. The length people go to here is funny.

Edit: I saw Bruce was a private and assumed he'd left the site.

[josko.ri]

I have also stated in chat recently that I am sure S&M has good reasons for sitting for their players as we do.

Don't make a case for someone which does not exist. S&M did not sit any turn in games with you so far.
You also mentioned Bruceswar playing for us, yet Bruceswar normally played his own turn in Hive so you are making some paranoid imaginary cases for something which does not exist.

TOP did not send a PM to the TO or report to anyone....because we prefer to believe S&M is an honorable clan.

Paul

I also did not report you straight away, when I had noticed that your sittings for a player who were earlier online happened for the first time.
At first, I had friendly warned FreeFalling and macken that what they did in hive and World 21 is against the clan sitting rules.
However, AFTER my friendly warning it happened even worse abuse of clan sitting rules, when Usa 21 turn was sat for nibotha who was just 2.30 hours earlier normally playing other 16 turns.
That was the reason that I decided to go with official report, because my initial friendly warnings to your clan obviously did not work.
I want to stop your clan in unfairly taking strategical advantages by sitter playing turns instead of the original player, who is in every case several times more experienced on given map than original player.

I see normal take one turn in a game, and not take in other game that still I have 16-17 hours to play and is a quad game. If more later I have problems and I can't take, that can happend. But not big problem, because the move are normally agreed by all, and only have to be executed.

I suppose that this happend a lot of times and are not a problem.
So what are the problem behind? Why all this now?

macken, it is VERY important who takes the turn. Plainly, I expect that Big_John who is Major and have played World 21 map 14 times, will play his turn with lower quality than you, who is top 10 player on the site and have played World 21 map 103 times. In chat discussion, he will likely have 4 different ideas (input by 4 players) and if he is not top quality player he will choose some strategically lower idea while you will choose strategically the best idea.

Rules state that playing turns by original player have priority over making all players' team discussion over a move. For example, if a player is very busy and has only one hour per day when he can be online then he MUST play his turn within that one hour, even if the move was not discussed by all 4 members of the team and even if the move has 23 hours left on the timer. In S&M clan, we have one player like that who can be online only one hour during the day. If his turn comes exactly in that one hour, then he plays his turn with 24 hours left without input from other teammates.

If you wanted to play a competition where only one idea is followed, you could as well sign up for POLY tournament but you didn't. This is TEAM tournament which means all players of the team must equally play their turns, if they are able to do so within the allowed 24 hour time frame. BiG_John was able to take his turn within the 24 hour time frame yet he intentionally left his turn to be played by you. For example, when he played round 1 turn in Game 17129829 then he had 19 hours left on the timer. At the same time, he had 16.30 hours left to play in Game 17122838 but he chose to leave the turn for you to play the next day instead of playing it by himself.

/////

I am going to wall nibotha to clarify why he did not play the Usa 21 turn 2.30 hour before FreeFalling sat for him, while he was playing 16 other turns at the same time.

[macken]

I think BIG_John did not take his turn 16,40 h before his timeout in W2.1 because:

- The movement still had to be discussed (I give faith)
- He had no problem taking the move hours later.

Simply the problem came at the end of his time and we fix it taking the turn.

In addition, was the first turn of the game, after your first turn. We are behind because your team start the game, and nothing big to win for us, simply take the turn and not miss it.

What I want to say is that this situation is not so difficult to happen in CC. It does not usually happen, but it does happen sometimes.

I do not know, but I do not think most CC players in a team game, play 17-18 hours before their timeout turn if they see the possibility of playing later. And surely many times, for different reasons, they could not have reached the turn and even lost the turn.
One can play another game that is a easy move to no delay. It does not necessarily have to be because he thinks he's going to have problems 18 hours later.

[FreeFalling123]

Josko, I respond about brucewar without reading comments from my clan specifically telling me not to comment because we have no reasons to create tensions... however, when I start looking at this situation it pisses me off as he has thrown games and lowered his score and now it thieves points from my team... this is a side issue to the game, but I felt obliged to POLITELY inquiry why you would put a player on your team who has left the site... obviously clan warfare is differing from regular warfare and bruce has intentions to come back and play, but this situation is rare and extreme... I am reminded of GLGs days willing to do anything to increase his score another 3 points... obviously this was not your intentions! I realize there is a language barrier and the word "warning" came off strongly to you, but I was not punishing you, I was reminding you of a game ruling and hoping for understanding.

Nibotha took big risk leaving his turn at 2.5 hour and he also messaged me assuming I could cover him (no problem from nibs, but can be really bad to miss that turn when I end up just playing a move I had typed in chat 20 hours prior)... I had no idea this would happen.. same as jds internet going out and leaving a turn which again I happened to be on to catch... We could very easily miss the turn, so what you are stating to be illegal in the rules, we have to state back similarly the rules satisfies legality at the 2 hour mark for emergency cover... or can you show me where we cannot cover at the 2 hour mark during mishaps? I just happen to be on and so i take the turn... I also haven't been playing well lately.. even in another game my move idea for a partner happened to have him attack his own partner and he disregard my comments... my move for jd on hive wasn't great either... you guys have dominated your every turn, so sitting doesn't help us anyway

[josko.ri]

Nibotha took big risk leaving his turn at 2.5 hour and he also messaged me assuming I could cover him (no problem from nibs, but can be really bad to miss that turn when I end up just playing a move I had typed in chat 20 hours prior)... I had no idea this would happen.. same as jds internet going out and leaving a turn which again I happened to be on to catch... We could very easily miss the turn, so what you are stating to be illegal in the rules, we have to state back similarly the rules satisfies legality at the 2 hour mark for emergency cover... or can you show me where we cannot cover at the 2 hour mark during mishaps?

So nibotha even had the time to MESSAGE you to cover for him, besides playing 16 other turns 2.5 hours before you sat. That means you were perfectly aware that nibotha was earlier there able to play his turn yet you went ahead and sit for him.

Of course I can show you where was ruled that siting for the player who was earlier available to play his turn during the 24 hour mark is breaking rules, wih underlined part of the rule which was broken by your sitting for nibotha, and more recently, for jaybrake in Usa 21 game (jaybrake was also playing other turns earlier during the same day while you sat for him later):

viewtopic.php?f=239&t=148339&start=50#p3298714

Due to the latest evidence provided by josko.ri, it has been proven that Chariot of Fire has took turns for some players, including for some moderators, that were not yet in danger of missing their turn(s) or that the owner had a chance to take the turn by himself:

9157574
9043142
8687933
8441498
8631053

All those other games that happened last 2010 shall be noted to only support any recent activities for the case, and for this report, they can not be ignored. Therefore, Chariot of Fire has been warned. Pedronicus has been noted for letting his games be played by an account sitter, even though he was fully capable of playing his turns by himself.

The other case, with longer explanation of rules:

viewtopic.php?f=239&t=145859&start=250#p3229429

For this case, at some point, josko.ri could/should have simply told the other players to stop relying on him to take turns for them. Account sitting is for a definite period of time and NOT for an indefinite period. You can't assign an account sitter to account sit for you for as long as his blood is running into his veins. Then you can now sleep soundly whenever or do other stuff because you know he is going to save you from missing a turn. If you are capable of taking your turn, then take it. Do not make someone be responsible for your own account or lean too much for his advise.

EDIT: I just saw Lindax posted just while I was writing my post, so I will leave my post here as it further explains rules by king achilles, for everyone not being aware of that rule. I will not discuss more about the issue here but will use proper channels to address the issue.

[BIG_John]

Josko I am sorry that I had a damn ice storm and lost fcking power and could not take my damn turn!! Stop your damn crying and play damn game!!! SMH I see why people quit playing on here with all the damn crybabies! Grow up and play the damn game!

[PaulatPeace]

As S&M MOW for this league I would like to clarify one thing.

I try to get each member of our clan involved as much as possible. Some are on extended vacations, some want to play very little. People leave the site every day, and we want to try and keep them active as much/long as possible.

I sent literally 10 messages to these players asking them if they are interested in a game this war and if they would be available to take all their turns. Bruce replied back that he has time for one so I put him in. I also asked wild-tiger, OSU jacket, Rodian, and several others, but they were not interested in games right now.

I appreciate what you have said xroads and am inclined to believe you. Thank you for the explanation.

I also agree this thread is not the place to file reports of abuse or infractions, or any type of mudslinging. Since this issue has already been brought up, and is one that in general is an important one and of interest to all clans, I feel is it a place to discuss those issues. If it is important to discuss this somewhere else, I will happily start a new thread for that purpose...but it is a much larger issue than simply one accusation to be handled by the TO.......it is an issue concerning all of us, and therefore appropriate to be discussed here.
Additionally, comments which have been made here in this thread deserve a reply, and since the comments were made here, the appropriate place to respectfully address those comments is here.

Postby josko.ri on Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:14 am

PaulatPeace wrote:
I have also stated in chat recently that I am sure S&M has good reasons for sitting for their players as we do.

Don't make a case for someone which does not exist. S&M did not sit any turn in games with you so far.
You also mentioned Bruceswar playing for us, yet Bruceswar normally played his own turn in Hive so you are making some paranoid imaginary cases for something which does not exist.

PaulatPeace wrote:
TOP did not send a PM to the TO or report to anyone....because we prefer to believe S&M is an honorable clan.

Paul

I also did not report you straight away, when I had noticed that your sittings for a player who were earlier online happened for the first time.
At first, I had friendly warned FreeFalling and macken that what they did in hive and World 21 is against the clan sitting rules.
However, AFTER my friendly warning it happened even worse abuse of clan sitting rules, when Usa 21 turn was sat for nibotha who was just 2.30 hours earlier normally playing other 16 turns.
That was the reason that I decided to go with official report, because my initial friendly warnings to your clan obviously did not work.
I want to stop your clan in unfairly taking strategical advantages by sitter playing turns instead of the original player, who is in every case several times more experienced on given map than original player.

Josko,

I am sorry you took exception to my posts. I was simply attempting to say we felt S&M was an honorable clan!

Many of our players have exceptional experience and stats on a lot of maps. There is no need for our clan "unfairly taking strategical advantages by sitter playing turns instead". I have PMd you personally regarding this matter, but you have still chosen to continue to post comments here. I will reiterate what I said to you in my PM: "Again, brother, we do not take other players turns unless time is running low or if they have messaged us indicating they have a problem and will not be able to take their own turn. One of our players recently had internet go down for several days. Another one left on a trip without wifi connection before his games had completed. Another one's mother died and he has not returned to CC yet. You are familiar with these scenarios. I'm sure they are not unique to our clan."

I was personally aware of the situations involving BIG_John and nibotha and others. They all contacted me as well as others in our Leadership Team indicating they either had no internet, were headed to work where they would not have a connection or other legitimate reasons why they would not be able to take their turns. TOP does not take turns for our members unless there are extenuating circumstances. We strongly encourage every member to take their own turns whenever possible. If we take a turn for someone who is under 2 hrs, we have broken no rule! If we take a turn for someone who cannot take their own turn, we have broken no rule! You are certainly aware of everyday experiences where a player may take turns earlier during the day, but then their internet goes out or an emergency occurs which makes it impossible to take a later turn. We have members in our clan who have children who have have situations needing their immediate attention. We have members who do not have internet at work and their jobs run over and they cannot make it back. There are many instances where a situation can arise which dictates a sitter take the turn for someone who cannot take it themselves. TOP has these communications documented and saved in many cases where a request has been made for an emergency sitting.

We welcome a review of our sitting practice and have complete faith in King Achilles ability to verify the truth.

Sincerely,

Paul

[shoop76]

Why can't this be discussed here? Is it better to do it secretly?

[Keefie]

Why can't this be discussed here? Is it better to do it secretly?

This complaint is now being reviewed by Admin, until the results of that review are known then it should not be discussed in here (just as Admin lock C&A complaints when under review).

We are reluctant to lock the CL8 main thread (but will if absolutely necessary) and hope everyone is able to respect this request.

Thanks
K

[Donelladan]

A report has been filed with me, concerning account sitting abuse. This will be looked into with the help of admin (king achilles), who have the tools to do so.

This thread is not the place to file reports of abuse or infractions, nor is it a place to discuss those issues. The proper way is to contact the TO, which is me, Lindax.

Please leave this up to us and stop the discussion (and mudslinging) here.

Lx

And where would be the place to discuss CL8 matter and mudslinging ? I think clan war threads used to be the place for such accusations and heated debate.
For the CL8, this seems to be the equivalent of the clan war thread, and therefore the appropriate place to accuse another clan of having no honour, integrity and such things.
I think clans players are interested in this discussion, also it make for some animation in the clan forum.
Everyone has been quite respectful of each other so far, therefore it seems there is no reason to ask us to stfu.
And I totally understand that whatever we says here will not influence the decision you'll take, it doesn't matter, the discussion can still happen, regardless of what you'll decision will be, just for the pleasure of discussing the matter between us.

My request is therefore, let us talk ! It doesn't hurt.
Clan forum shouldn't be completely clean and quiet.
When you follow sports, the supporters not only watch the game but also spend lot of times arguing about the game and referee's decision. That's part of the fun !


Now, on the topic itself, how this is treated is definitely of interest for everyone, and a more general discussion on the sitting could be made.
I am not talking of the S&M/TOP case here, I am speaking of the issue of how the sitting rules have to be interpreted. Those rules have been created after some serious clan sitting abuse was made. In order to avoid sitting abuse it has been decided that emergency sitting was allowed if the clock was below 2 hours. josko point of view on this matter and the interpretation of this rule by every clan may merit an open discussion as this is something that concern everyone.
What TOP is describing ( people wait for discussion but then go below 2 hours and someone else sit them and play their turn) is something that happened to LHDD as well, and I am quite sure to other clans too. Should CD take the decision that this kind of things have to be really exceptional and that it should be avoided at all cost ? This is something that concern everyone and is way above the S&M/TOP matter.
If we are not allowed to discuss it here, then please, create a new topic about Sitting in emergeny, and move all posts from the 1st post of josko in this new topic.