Private games have private messages

[mrswdk]

Concise description:

• Private games that are fully private, including chat

Specifics/Details:

• Game chat in private games should be hidden from anyone not involved in that game

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:

• We have private forums so that people can interact in private, without having to be part of the whole open forum thing. Private game chat would provide the same privacy to players who want it.
• Private game chat options would enable clans/friends to train and discuss tactics more easily, being able to discuss in game chat without being spied on

[concrete]

You will probably get all kinds of negative comments on this, but I like it. Clan members can play against each other 1 vs 1 or teams and discuss strategy between players or teams without fear of their comments being read by others.
Also, no one who wears their feelings on their sleeves will be offended by reading chat not meant for them or anyone else.
I fully support this.

[DoomYoshi]

Alternate suggestion: make all chat global, including [Team] and [Personal] and Private chat rooms and PMs and private usergroups and your innermost fears, guilts and thoughts.

[DoomYoshi]

For the record, private game chat does show up on the Live Action page, as should all the other stuff.

[owenshooter]

your suggestion is not necessary, because the solution to your problem exists. simply don't use racist language on the site period. this suggestion is in response to your recent ban for comments in a public game. which, i might add, was after multiple warnings for your having used racist language around the site:

Subject: mrswdk/ EXCESSIVE RACISM [ka]

so, i don't think the option is really necessary and the coding time isn't worth the cost effort, when so many other things need to be fixed/addressed around here. if you want a place to carry on with the sort of language that you believe is not offensive, but society and the site deem it as such, send a PM or real world email or create an off site usergroup, where your racist behaviour/posts won't be an issue.

as far as wasting time coding the site so you can say racist things in game chat, i don't see that happening. good luck with this!!-Bj

p.s.-love how you left out the back story to your suggestion. racism is disgusting. it has no place on this site.

[Metsfanmax]

I would support this if private games were not for CC points. But as long as you're playing a game that counts on the CC points system, I think all aspects of the game should be open to examination by the public.

[nietzsche]

Owen, you're crossing the line from being simply Owen, "he can't help it", to be really really annoying.

[mrswdk]

I would support this if private games were not for CC points. But as long as you're playing a game that counts on the CC points system, I think all aspects of the game should be open to examination by the public.

By that logic we shouldn't allow fog games, because fog prevents 'the public' from being able to see exactly what's going on in a game.

What reason could there be for random people needing to be able to see what is said in a game chat?

[Metsfanmax]

I would support this if private games were not for CC points. But as long as you're playing a game that counts on the CC points system, I think all aspects of the game should be open to examination by the public.

By that logic we shouldn't allow fog games, because fog prevents 'the public' from being able to see exactly what's going on in a game.

We do un-fog the game after it is over, allowing everyone to see all the moves that were made. Furthermore, the fog is a site function, not a player action, so it's not in the same realm as what I am talking about. I am talking about people behaving in unethical ways when they play.

What reason could there be for random people needing to be able to see what is said in a game chat?

Well, apparently people violate site rules in Game Chat, so that's one reason why.

Plus if you're going to start asking questions like that, then one can ask why you need game chat for this purpose at all? Start a PM with all the people in the game if you just want to talk shit, then no one will see it.

[mrswdk]

What reason could there be for random people needing to be able to see what is said in a game chat?

Well, apparently people violate site rules in Game Chat, so that's one reason why.

If someone was saying things that upset their opponent and their opponent wanted to report them, mods would still be able to see what was being said. And if the person doing the reporting was really desperate for everyone else to have their two cents, they would be free to copy-paste the transcript into a public report. PMs are completely private and yet people have no issue reporting those. I fail to see why private game chats would be any different.

I (and possibly others) would appreciate being able to speak to my opponents without having to worry about third parties stalking my games looking for opportunities to get me in trouble, concrete had suggested others would appreciate the freedom to discuss tactics while playing games with each other without the possibility of rival players seeing. You are just sticking your head round the door to be negative for the sake of being negative (most likely because the fewer suggestions that go through, the less work you have to do as a Features/Beta team member).

[owenshooter]

I would support this if private games were not for CC points. But as long as you're playing a game that counts on the CC points system, I think all aspects of the game should be open to examination by the public.

By that logic we shouldn't allow fog games, because fog prevents 'the public' from being able to see exactly what's going on in a game.

What reason could there be for random people needing to be able to see what is said in a game chat?

actually, that is pretty much apples and oranges. very poor comparison. keep grasping at straws, the site is just not going to let you use the N word or any variation of it, as you so desperately desire. please continue running around the forums, spamming it up with all of these threads, you are on your way to a very long vacation. good luck, this suggestion is already dead in the water...-Bj

p.s.-anyone that wants to know what this is really about, the site won't support racism: Subject: mr.wdk/ EXCESSIVE RACISM [ka]

p.p.s.-however, if you want to eliminate fog based on your insane logic, i'm all for that. fog is a huge portion for the demise of this site.

[DirtyDishSoap]

If it's a private game, it should be exactly that. Private. No one needs to read the chat or chime in and bug (harass) or just stalk players unless it's for multi-hunting purposes. Why hasn't this been a thing up until now is beyond me.

[owenshooter]

If it's a private game, it should be exactly that. Private. No one needs to read the chat or chime in and bug (harass) or just stalk players unless it's for multi-hunting purposes. Why hasn't this been a thing up until now is beyond me.

you do understand this is so the person that started this thread can use racist language without repercussions, correct?

Subject: mr.wdk/ EXCESSIVE RACISM [ka]

just making sure that you realize you are supporting this users bigotry ideology, by supporting his idea... making the chat private will never happen, too much cheating could go on under the cloak of the hidden chat. even the PRIVATE CLAN FORUMS are able to be viewed and posted in by mods/admins. this will never happen. the user is just trolling the forum in an effort to somehow prove himself and his insistence to use racist language, as correct. i hope you don't back racism on the site. have a great day...-Jésus noir

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

Alternate suggestion: make all chat global, including [Team] and [Personal] and Private chat rooms and PMs and private usergroups and your innermost fears, guilts and thoughts.

This

Though I should quote the ninth amendment also

[Metsfanmax]

To all: please keep thread discussion on topic and discuss the suggestion on its merits, not the behavior of any particular person in this thread. There isn't much moderation I do in here, but one thing I will enforce is keeping discussions on topic.

To mrswdk: the bottom line is that if you want a completely private forum for conversation with others, there are plenty of other mechanisms than CC game chat for doing so. If there were no other problems with the idea, it would still be true that this is developer time better spent on things that really matter and don't have workarounds. It really has nothing to do with my personal interests, the only thing I do for CC is post on the forums and occasionally moderate it. I haven't actively played a role in feature development in years.

With that being said, you haven't really answered my objection, which is that chat relevant to the game should be available to the public so that one can tell if someone is violating the rules. Even if someone in the game can still "report" a comment, presumably this isn't likely to happen because you're playing private games with people you are friends with. That doesn't mean you aren't violating the rules just because your friends chose not to report you for it.

[DirtyDishSoap]

If it's a private game, it should be exactly that. Private. No one needs to read the chat or chime in and bug (harass) or just stalk players unless it's for multi-hunting purposes. Why hasn't this been a thing up until now is beyond me.

you do understand this is so the person that started this thread can use racist language without repercussions, correct?

Subject: mr.wdk/ EXCESSIVE RACISM [ka]

just making sure that you realize you are supporting this users bigotry ideology, by supporting his idea... making the chat private will never happen, too much cheating could go on under the cloak of the hidden chat. even the PRIVATE CLAN FORUMS are able to be viewed and posted in by mods/admins. this will never happen. the user is just trolling the forum in an effort to somehow prove himself and his insistence to use racist language, as correct. i hope you don't back racism on the site. have a great day...

I support peoples right to say what they want privately. It's none of my business what is being said in a private game between friends nor should it be any of your business. I'm coming from a different world than yourself where your little security bubble would bust in seconds. Both online and rl. To me, no big deal, words are words, sticks and stones. Labeling this as bigotry over the use of one word that's common to hear is beyond stupid. Or how it's "exclusive" for one ethnic group, but racist to be said by someone else. Never made sense to me, and it never will. Far worst shit had been said to me or what I've done and I just stroke my knob because I really don't care lol. Closing statement, I back it being private for the sake of it being private.

So how exactly would they cheat if it's private? I'm a little curious on how you think after pms, text msg, email and IM, private chat logs that are not open to the public would promote cheating? Little loss on that. And of course site mods/admins would have access to that. Stupid to think they wouldn't.

[owenshooter]

I support peoples right to say what they want privately.

good, glad we agree. and seeing as how game chat is not private, and will not be private, this discussion can end. as usual, the black jesus is right, thank you for acknowledging this... the black jesus has spoken...-Bj

[Donelladan]

With that being said, you haven't really answered my objection, which is that chat relevant to the game should be available to the public so that one can tell if someone is violating the rules. Even if someone in the game can still "report" a comment, presumably this isn't likely to happen because you're playing private games with people you are friends with. That doesn't mean you aren't violating the rules just because your friends chose not to report you for it.

Are you thinking of multiplayers games and secret diplomacy ?
I believe the OP is considering everyone in the game should be able to see the chat. Let's say I am making a 8 players games with my clanmates, and we want the chat to be private ( not being able to be visible by anyone except mod/admin) how is it a problem for anyone ? Since all people in the game are seeing the chat, how could we do something violating the game rules ?

If you are thinking about issue like racist comment, what about team game ? When we play team game, all the game chat of my team is visible by no one except my team, therefore in a team game I can make as much racist comment as I'd like to.
I am not able to see what would be the problem with this suggestion.
Ofc, maybe developer have other things to do - but it's not for us to say

[Metsfanmax]

With that being said, you haven't really answered my objection, which is that chat relevant to the game should be available to the public so that one can tell if someone is violating the rules. Even if someone in the game can still "report" a comment, presumably this isn't likely to happen because you're playing private games with people you are friends with. That doesn't mean you aren't violating the rules just because your friends chose not to report you for it.

Are you thinking of multiplayers games and secret diplomacy ?
I believe the OP is considering everyone in the game should be able to see the chat. Let's say I am making a 8 players games with my clanmates, and we want the chat to be private ( not being able to be visible by anyone except mod/admin) how is it a problem for anyone ? Since all people in the game are seeing the chat, how could we do something violating the game rules ?

As one example, you might collaborate to intentionally lose the game in favor of one of the players and thereby harm the CC points system. As another, you might engage in diplomatic arrangements within your game, since the rules say you must do so in game chat, but if outside players cannot see the chat, then they cannot as easily figure out whether there is a pattern of secret diplomacy going on. (This is not really solved by the C&A staff being able to see Game Chat because many -- most? -- such cases are reported by players, not by the staff.)

It is also worth keeping in mind that not all private games are among people who know each other well or are friends; see, for example, the rank restricted games in Callouts. Those games are effectively public for our purposes, but would presumably be affected by this change.

Ofc, maybe developer have other things to do - but it's not for us to say

Yes it is. Basically the only purpose the Suggestions forum has ever had was to sort out what things the community decided was worth spending time on, and what things were not.

[Donelladan]

As one example, you might collaborate to intentionally lose the game in favor of one of the players and thereby harm the CC points system. As another, you might engage in diplomatic arrangements within your game, since the rules say you must do so in game chat, but if outside players cannot see the chat, then they cannot as easily figure out whether there is a pattern of secret diplomacy going on. (This is not really solved by the C&A staff being able to see Game Chat because many -- most? -- such cases are reported by players, not by the staff.)

I dont get the secret diplomacy part here again. We are 8 players in a game chat. Only us can see the game chat. If the secret diplomacy happen in the game chat, it's not secret for the other players in the game, so it's not SD.
Now, if you mean among those 8 players, 2 are engaging in SD, and then people outside the game can't see it.
Well if someone among the 8 players is reporting, he can copy past the game chat in his report, and it can be checked by the mod if need be.
Furthermore, when there is SD, it's usually not visible in the game chat, but it's visible through the log and the way they act. ( I mean, if they are doing SD and reveal it in the game chat they are quite stupid - and the other people would notice it anyway and go to C&A)

Concerning the throwing a game and harm the CC points system. Well it can be done via pm already. I doubt allowing private game chat would really change something here. If two people want to cheat, they can do so already pretty easily.

It is also worth keeping in mind that not all private games are among people who know each other well or are friends; see, for example, the rank restricted games in Callouts. Those games are effectively public for our purposes, but would presumably be affected by this change.

[/quote]

You're right on this, private game chat should therefore be an option if it was implemented.

Yes it is. Basically the only purpose the Suggestions forum has ever had was to sort out what things the community decided was worth spending time on, and what things were not.

Ok, didn't know.

[DirtyDishSoap]

I support peoples right to say what they want privately.

good, glad we dont agree. and seeing as how game chat is not private, and will not be private, this discussion can end. as usual, the black idiot is wrong, thank you for acknowledging this... the black idiot has spoken...-Blowjob

Fixed.

Thanks for attempting to be a fail sophist and disregarding the whole argument. Truly CC's best and brightest have stayed on this site to continue contributing in the most intelligent way possible.

Let me know when you feel like growing up to be an adult and not a twit.

[mrswdk]

you might collaborate to intentionally lose the game in favor of one of the players and thereby harm the CC points system.

If the collaboration is between some but not all players involved in the game, the player(s) not involved would still be able to see what was being said and report the game to mods.

The only way private chats could hamper the detection of game throwing is if every single person involved in particular games is trying to throw them. Even if such game throwing occurs now in games with publicly visible chat, detecting those players/games would still rely on someone already having gotten a 'funny feeling' from somewhere else in order to have felt the need to go and check up on those players' games. Maybe I'm playing a game against players x, y and z and feel like they're teaming up, so I check their game history together. Then, if upon looking up those player(s) games I see a pattern of the same people playing with the same person winning then, just as now, I could chuck a report in C&A and mods would be able to investigate, just as they do now. Mods would be able to see any discussion taking place in game chat, if any of it is relevant, and make a fully-informed decision before ruling.

Thousands of people play games every day on this site and you're talking about game throwing in games consisting entirely of people who all know each, who explicitly acknowledge their game-throwing intentions in game chat, which has happened in, what, 0.0000001% of games ever? Are there any examples at all of people getting suspicious, looking up other people's games, and then submitting a valid report that relied on evidence they had found in game chat logs?

[Metsfanmax]

Thousands of people play games every day on this site and you're talking about game throwing in games consisting entirely of people who all know each, who explicitly acknowledge their game-throwing intentions in game chat, which has happened in, what, 0.0000001% of games ever? Are there any examples at all of people getting suspicious, looking up other people's games, and then submitting a valid report that relied on evidence they had found in game chat logs?

I have seen C&A cases like that, sure. But whether it happens often or at all is for me besides the point. The whole point of game chat is that we're going to provide an official avenue for players to converse about the game while they are playing it, so that should be considered part of the official game record and available to the public for inspection. This is entirely a matter of principle to me, I am just providing some example cases where it could matter for site violations because for some people this argument on principle will not resonate. If you're just using Game Chat to shoot the breeze with your friends, obviously there's nothing particularly wrong with that, but you do so at the cost of what you say becoming part of the game record. If you want a venue for conversation with your friends that is irrelevant to the game and in which you can say things which would not be tolerated by official site rules, use Google chat or PM them or something.

[owenshooter]

I support peoples right to say what they want privately.

good, glad we dont agree. and seeing as how game chat is not private, and will not be private, this discussion can end. as usual, the black idiot is wrong, thank you for acknowledging this... the black idiot has spoken...-Blowjob

Fixed.

Thanks for attempting to be a fail sophist and disregarding the whole argument. Truly CC's best and brightest have stayed on this site to continue contributing in the most intelligent way possible.

Let me know when you feel like growing up to be an adult and not a twit.

no, you fixed nothing. you stated that you support peoples right to say what they want in private. game chat is not private, thus you do not support this suggestion. again, this is one user spiraling out of control after being busted for racist comments within game chat after MULTIPLE WARNINGS across the site for the same thing. i could care less what he wants, he still has no idea that what he did was wrong or racist. he is now trying to frame an entirely different issue. as in, "my chat SHOULD BE PRIVATE, as i ASSUMED IT WAS PRIVATE in a public game. so my ban was wrong and CC OWES ME AN APOLOGY." sorry, he said racist shit and nothing can change that one deplorable fact. and it wasn't one time. it was multiple times in one week. this user thought racism was funny and appropriate humor, the site told him to sit in the corner. now he is out of the corner and throwing tantrums all over the forums. good luck with this, nothing will come of it. the black jesus, as always, is once again wholly correct...-Bj

[DirtyDishSoap]

Thousands of people play games every day on this site and you're talking about game throwing in games consisting entirely of people who all know each, who explicitly acknowledge their game-throwing intentions in game chat, which has happened in, what, 0.0000001% of games ever? Are there any examples at all of people getting suspicious, looking up other people's games, and then submitting a valid report that relied on evidence they had found in game chat logs?

I have seen C&A cases like that, sure. But whether it happens often or at all is for me besides the point. The whole point of game chat is that we're going to provide an official avenue for players to converse about the game while they are playing it, so that should be considered part of the official game record and available to the public for inspection. This is entirely a matter of principle to me, I am just providing some example cases where it could matter for site violations because for some people this argument on principle will not resonate. If you're just using Game Chat to shoot the breeze with your friends, obviously there's nothing particularly wrong with that, but you do so at the cost of what you say becoming part of the game record. If you want a venue for conversation with your friends that is irrelevant to the game and in which you can say things which would not be tolerated by official site rules, use Google chat or PM them or something.

It's very rare that someone just announces in chat "Dehur! We're cheating!"

You and I both know that the game log shows patterns and it's easy to discern who is intent throwing and who has a secret alliance and such. The chat thing should be the last thing on the list. I'd like to add that players do most of the reporting but rarely is it third party, it's usually in game between said players. or just a guy that stalks people.