D-Day: Omaha Beach! [Quenched]

[xsnlrocks21x]

I really like this map, I'm a little confused by the parachute thing, but I just need to play it and get the hang of is. Can't wait to play!

ps-about what mibi & some other ppl were talking about before: i had no idea starting the map elimination game would cause so much controversy!:oops: I've played it in some groups on facebook and thought it was fun, so I started it on the forum here. I had no idea people would take it so seriously!

Anyway, I really like all the maps that mibi & coleman make, so keep up the good work

[Coleman]

So... All discussion in here has been non map related forever. mibi and I have argued our positions on suggested changes, and implemented some. I dare to say this map is ready.

[hulmey]

Mibi said he was going to look into giving german continents bonuses!!!

Or if not take away their names as it would be clutter for nothing.

Also i though every1 was in agreement that the legend still need working on?

[Coleman]

Mibi said he was going to look into giving german continents bonuses!!!

Or if not take away their names as it would be clutter for nothing.

Also i though every1 was in agreement that the legend still need working on?

Oh, I wasn't aware of that, okay then.

[mibi]

Mibi said he was going to look into giving german continents bonuses!!!

Or if not take away their names as it would be clutter for nothing.

Also i though every1 was in agreement that the legend still need working on?

Oh, I wasn't aware of that, okay then.

Neither was I.

The continents don't have bonuses because they are not needed. Even if they did have a bonus it would have to be small, and then people would gripe about a 10 territory continent with a small bonus.

They are names to facilitate moving around the map.

[hulmey]

If theres no bonus, then you dont neeed the names....Whats the point?? explain the point of having names abit more clearer than "having to gripe around the map".

I think the geramn continents deserve a small bonus. Allied positioning is far too strong and again peole with good placement in the allied areas have a clear advantage. Surely you can see that ?

[mibi]

If theres no bonus, then you dont neeed the names....Whats the point?? explain the point of having names abit more clearer than "having to gripe around the map".

I think the geramn continents deserve a small bonus. Allied positioning is far too strong and again peole with good placement in the allied areas have a clear advantage. Surely you can see that ?

The german areas have names to I can only use numbers 1-10 and to divide up the map a bit for communication purposes. This way I can name the xml '916th German Grenadiers 5" instead of "german territory 25".

And yes I can see if you have good placement in the alied area you have a clear advantage. But this is the case with every map, if you have a good placement in NA you have a clear advantage. I don't think the advantage is out of the ordinary tho. If it turns out that the alied ships are really attractive bonuses, then more people will fight over them, like they do in the great hall and throne in the siege.

also the whole allied territory will take longer to take, its 14 territories to get the bonus, which you must defend in 6 areas. consequently the german bonus only require you to hold 6 each, so they can be attained much quicker. and i don't think anyone is just going to let a player hold all the ships too easily, its like holding all of africa or asia in world 2.1, it makes you a huge target.

[KEYOGI]

I'm with hulmey on this one. Just because you're trying to direct gameplay doesn't mean the map shouldn't follow some basic risk style gameplay standards. I'd like to see a bonus for the German continents, even if it's a small one.

[DiM]

the bonuses seem really odd to me.

1. bunkers. holding a bunker gives a +2 and holding all 3 gives an extra +4. isn't that too much?

each bunker should give max +1 and holding all 3 should give an extra 2-3.

in the current system you basicaly get 10 troops for 6 terits.

and if you also take 2 trenches is even easier to hold. 4 borders 10 bonus not to mention a great tactical value because you can attack one way in many directions.

also considering the fact that you have 72 terits the chances for someone to start with all 6 terits of the bunkers is really big especialy in a 3 players game.

2. ships each ship group gives a +4. i don't have a problem with the actual 4 but i do have a problem with the center ship being worth the same as the side ones. it has more borders and more terits and yet the bonus is the same. why?

3. artillery +2 for each and an extra +3 for holding both. again there's the problem with being a big bonus for few terits and few borders.

a player has quite a big chance of getting those 6 terits from the first deployment. and starting with a +7 is kinda sily.

also taking trench 8 gives you a +7 for only 3 borders.

4. the beaches the bonus for the beaches is ok but by comparing it to the other bonuses it is damn low.


5. plane and parachute holding a plane and his parachute gives a - 1. why? is there any gameplay reason? cause i really don't see it.

[mibi]

I'm with hulmey on this one. Just because you're trying to direct gameplay doesn't mean the map shouldn't follow some basic risk style gameplay standards. I'd like to see a bonus for the German continents, even if it's a small one.

"basic risk style gameplay standards" lol, seriously keyogi, might as well delete the xml update thread. adding a useless, unbalancing bonus, just to keep the game play 'traditional' is lame. there is already a lot of game play coming down the pipe that can in no way be called 'standard'.

while we are at it maybe we should give antarctic a bonus in world 2.1, you know, so its more... standard.

[mibi]

the bonuses seem really odd to me.

1. bunkers. holding a bunker gives a +2 and holding all 3 gives an extra +4. isn't that too much?

each bunker should give max +1 and holding all 3 should give an extra 2-3.

in the current system you basicaly get 10 troops for 6 terits.

and if you also take 2 trenches is even easier to hold. 4 borders 10 bonus not to mention a great tactical value because you can attack one way in many directions.

also considering the fact that you have 72 terits the chances for someone to start with all 6 terits of the bunkers is really big especialy in a 3 players game.

2. ships each ship group gives a +4. i don't have a problem with the actual 4 but i do have a problem with the center ship being worth the same as the side ones. it has more borders and more terits and yet the bonus is the same. why?

3. artillery +2 for each and an extra +3 for holding both. again there's the problem with being a big bonus for few terits and few borders.

a player has quite a big chance of getting those 6 terits from the first deployment. and starting with a +7 is kinda sily.

also taking trench 8 gives you a +7 for only 3 borders.

4. the beaches the bonus for the beaches is ok but by comparing it to the other bonuses it is damn low.


5. plane and parachute holding a plane and his parachute gives a - 1. why? is there any gameplay reason? cause i really don't see it.

I believe all the bonuses have been explain previously in this thread. I dont think the probability of starting with all 6 is very high, someone with better math skills can figure it out. also you would have to hold all six until it was your turn. all i can say is that this map has been play tested several times by coleman with no major issues regarding the bonuses.

[KEYOGI]

I think you misunderstood me mibi. I'm very much looking forward to the new XML changes, but my point is I come to Conquer Club to play a variation of Risk. I'm all for ideas that mix it up when it comes to strategy, I'm just not convinced enforcing directed gameplay is the way to go. That's just my humble opinion.

[Coleman]

I think you misunderstood me mibi. I'm very much looking forward to the new XML changes, but my point is I come to Conquer Club to play a variation of Risk. I'm all for ideas that mix it up when it comes to strategy, I'm just not convinced enforcing directed gameplay is the way to go. That's just my humble opinion.

From play testing the map I wouldn't have it any other way then it is now. The German area's game play is brilliant and I'd hate to see it tarnished with bonuses for a bunch of dead land. I need more convincing then "that's the way it is for every other map".

[DiM]

the bonuses seem really odd to me.

1. bunkers. holding a bunker gives a +2 and holding all 3 gives an extra +4. isn't that too much?

each bunker should give max +1 and holding all 3 should give an extra 2-3.

in the current system you basicaly get 10 troops for 6 terits.

and if you also take 2 trenches is even easier to hold. 4 borders 10 bonus not to mention a great tactical value because you can attack one way in many directions.

also considering the fact that you have 72 terits the chances for someone to start with all 6 terits of the bunkers is really big especialy in a 3 players game.

2. ships each ship group gives a +4. i don't have a problem with the actual 4 but i do have a problem with the center ship being worth the same as the side ones. it has more borders and more terits and yet the bonus is the same. why?

3. artillery +2 for each and an extra +3 for holding both. again there's the problem with being a big bonus for few terits and few borders.

a player has quite a big chance of getting those 6 terits from the first deployment. and starting with a +7 is kinda sily.

also taking trench 8 gives you a +7 for only 3 borders.

4. the beaches the bonus for the beaches is ok but by comparing it to the other bonuses it is damn low.


5. plane and parachute holding a plane and his parachute gives a - 1. why? is there any gameplay reason? cause i really don't see it.

I believe all the bonuses have been explain previously in this thread. I dont think the probability of starting with all 6 is very high, someone with better math skills can figure it out. also you would have to hold all six until it was your turn. all i can say is that this map has been play tested several times by coleman with no major issues regarding the bonuses.

considering the fact that probably this map will get thousands of games i would definitely rely on "several" test done by coleman. while i don't doubt his playtesting abilities, i do doubt he played thousands of games in various conditions.

for example i'm sure he never tried in 3 players.

72 terits in 3 players = 24 terits / player. i'm not good at math but since i've seen people starting with south am or australia on classic map several times i'm sure i'll see people starting with all bunkers or all artilery several times.

also if you say coleman playtested it. could we see let's say 5 play tests? just to get an idea how things go?

[DiM]

From play testing the map I wouldn't have it any other way then it is now. The German area's game play is brilliant and I'd hate to see it tarnished with bonuses for a bunch of dead land. I need more convincing then "that's the way it is for every other map".

you need convincing? read my post. the german area is completely screwed because of the artillery and the bunkers. some really huge bonuses there.

also i understand that you and mibi are the creators here and it is normal to defend your map but since several foundry members request a change why do you refuse it?

i don't like it keyogi doesn't hulmey the same. and you guys keeps saying it is ok and ask for valid reasons to change it. well i gave valid reasons and in return i expect a detailed response.

[Coleman]

In all honesty I only play tested it 3 times. All were no cards. 1 was 6 people, 2 were 4. It's hard getting people all in one place in the summer.

If it would satisfy you in regards to your other post I could do some old fashioned math to figure out the odds of starting with those particular 6 territories out of 72 in a 3 player game. 10 is a lot for a first turn for sure. On top of that fact you'd have 24 territories for 16 on your first deployment.

The only chance the other players would have it to work as a team until things are even again.

It may be helpful in this case to see the odds of starting with powerful bonuses if you know someone has those 6 particular spots.

You know, it's also possible for someone to start with the entire beach or ship line in a 3 player game. Probable? No. But it is possible. I bet in classic someone could start with all of Asia and the first turn, maybe classic is unplayable too.

[DiM]

In all honesty I only play tested it 3 times. All were no cards. 1 was 6 people, 2 were 4. It's hard getting people all in one place in the summer.

in thse 3 games did anybody start with a bonus? + or minus.

also 3 games is not a number large enough to ensure quality statistical results. on my AoM map i've played over 50 games and still i'm not 100% sure i've covered all the possibilities.


PS: luckily my wife and most of my friends are risk fans so it's easy to get them to play.

[DiM]

You know, it's also possible for someone to start with the entire beach or ship line in a 3 player game. Probable? No. But it is possible. I bet in classic someone could start with all of Asia and the first turn, maybe classic is unplayable too.

yes it is possible to start with the entire beach line but that's less probable because the beachline has more terits. and yes in a 3 player game someone could start with asia but again the probability would be much smaller then starting with australia. and classic is not unplayable because asia gives a fair bonus of 7 for 12 terits and 4 borders while here the artilery gives the same bonus but for just 6 terits and same borders.

[Coleman]

In all honesty I only play tested it 3 times. All were no cards. 1 was 6 people, 2 were 4. It's hard getting people all in one place in the summer.

in thse 3 games did anybody start with a bonus? + or minus.

In the six player game someone started with a bunker and someone else started with a -1. Neither won. The guy with the -1 to start came in second.

In the four player game someone started with a bunker and an artillery. Someone else started with one territory away from the same (just a bunker).

The one with just a bunker won.

I can't find the third game, and I don't remember who started with what, just that I didn't win.

Regardless, I think in every map there is luck involved with starting positions and dice rolls. That's risk, that never changes. I don't see the problem with this map being less then conventional.

[Coleman]

You know, it's also possible for someone to start with the entire beach or ship line in a 3 player game. Probable? No. But it is possible. I bet in classic someone could start with all of Asia and the first turn, maybe classic is unplayable too.

yes it is possible to start with the entire beach line but that's less probable because the beachline has more terits. and yes in a 3 player game someone could start with asia but again the probability would be much smaller then starting with australia. and classic is not unplayable because asia gives a fair bonus of 7 for 12 terits and 4 borders while here the artilery gives the same bonus but for just 6 terits and same borders.

I think this is offset by the nature of the rest of the map and the temptation to attack out of the front of the artillery instead of in the conventional way via the trenches and the other adjacent territories.

The trenches also help make it harder to keep the 'simple' bonuses in much the same way the ones with more territories are harder to hold just from having more territories.

The difficulty of expanding into a worthless area or to the very hard to take beaches being your only two options from artillery also helps offset the higher bonus for a low territory count.

Of course, if we made the German countryside worth something then we could lower the artillery bonuses, but this isn't what mibi wants to do, and it isn't what I want to see him do. I'd rather we just take a stand with how things are now, and if the map is unacceptable then it will never see play. I promise not to throw a fit about it.

[mibi]

from the GD thread.

probability that all 6 are owned by a single person in the start of the game:

3 players= 0.137%
4 players= 0.0244%
5 players= 0.0064%
6 players= 0.00214%

as you can see, those are ridiculously small percents.
You wont have to worry about someone getting all 6 in the start of the game.

Any other questions?

[hulmey]

also the whole allied territory will take longer to take, its 14 territories to get the bonus, which you must defend in 6 areas. consequently the german bonus only require you to hold 6 each, so they can be attained much quicker. and i don't think anyone is just going to let a player hold all the ships too easily, its like holding all of africa or asia in world 2.1, it makes you a huge target.

How could you compare a 25 country continent with a 6 country continent.

Again if you get good placement you will get huge bonuses, which will make you unstoppable and im afraid. Take classic for example whoever gets australia 95% of the time. wins? He has one border, players tend no to attack it and it has also has a outward natural progression.

And as for saying Coleman's played and tested it. SO. He is biased towards his map. AS would i be.

[mibi]

also the whole allied territory will take longer to take, its 14 territories to get the bonus, which you must defend in 6 areas. consequently the german bonus only require you to hold 6 each, so they can be attained much quicker. and i don't think anyone is just going to let a player hold all the ships too easily, its like holding all of africa or asia in world 2.1, it makes you a huge target.

How could you compare a 25 country continent with a 6 country continent.

Again if you get good placement you will get huge bonuses, which will make you unstoppable and im afraid. Take classic for example whoever gets australia 95% of the time. wins? He has one border, players tend no to attack it and it has also has a outward natural progression.

And as for saying Coleman's played and tested it. SO. He is biased towards his map. AS would i be.

Hulmey I was comparing the 14 territory super continent of all ships to africa, not the bunkers. thats what the 'allied territory' is. unless ofcourse you consider the allies to be the germans. also the bunkers and batteries are harder to hold than australia because you have to defend 4 and 3 borders respectively. as wcaclimbing has said, the chance of starting with a huge bonus is incredibly small.

feel free to find a random sample of players and play test it yourself a few hundred times. im sure you will find this map has gotten a lot more playtesting that most maps that get on this site.

either way i am leaving the country today and wont be back for a few months. cheerio.

[hulmey]

hey aren't you going to finish this map first

[DiM]

from the GD thread.

probability that all 6 are owned by a single person in the start of the game:

3 players= 0.137%
4 players= 0.0244%
5 players= 0.0064%
6 players= 0.00214%

as you can see, those are ridiculously small percents.
You wont have to worry about someone getting all 6 in the start of the game.

Any other questions?

what GD thread are those calculated for this map?

and 0.13 is not that low. in 10000 games you'll have 13-14 games that are totally screwed. and that's if they start with those terits. but there's also the possibility of starting with just 4 or 5 and other terits in the area and getting all the bunkers in turn 1. so 13-14 games in 10000 and probably somewhere close to 50-200 games for starting with 4-5 bunker terits and easily getting the rest.