[Abandoned] Central Asia 2020

[iancanton]

nice to see this one back in the main foundry workshop!

As far as bonuses are concerned:

Middle East can probably be increased to at least 4 and Russia can probably be increased by 1 or 2.

ME is very easily defendable (two boundaries). Increasing the bonus could create an unfair advantage for someone who could quickly consolidate it.

Russia already gives the highest bonus among active starting regions. We could increase it to 7 though...

the map is supposed to be about oil mastery, but the balance of oil wealth seems to have changed by too much to be credible, especially since saudi arabia has only 1 region while similarly-sized iran and turkey have 6 each. give more weight to the middle east by adding more regions and refineries. i suggest jeddah (saudi arabia's second city), dammam (saudi arabia's oil capital), doha (the capital of qatar, possibly the most influential small country in the world), dubai (the biggest port in the middle east) and kuwait (having the third largest oil reserves in the middle east, the reason that it was conquered by iraq and therefore a very strange omission). of course, the bonus will need to increase.

Kazakhstan needs to be decreased by at least 3. The spreadsheet indicates it should be a +9.
Central Asia needs to be reduced to a +5.

The entire goal of the game is not to have players just consolidate a region and play defensively, but invade Central Asia and take control of tankers / refineries there as well as prevent others from consolidating either Kasakhstan or Central Asia. The way to achieve this is to mark up the bonuses for both . But, if everyone insists, they could go down to 10/5.

while central asia has a huge bonus for only 4 regions, kazakhstan has a similar central location but so many regions that it is virtually impossible to hold and therefore most sensible players will avoid attempting this bonus, which is surely not the intention. in an optimistic future, it's possible to see kazakhstan with almost as much wealth and influence as, say, iran or saudi arabia currently have, but certainly not more. a sensible number of regions is therefore 4 or 5, given that it has no natural defensive barriers, but a bonus that is high enough to encourage players to develop this area.

ngari and nagqu can logically disappear and be merged with lhasa, since they are only small, unimportant towns with no significant industry, no oil reserves and no particular reason to feature on this map. similarly, herat and kandahar can disappear and be merged with kabul. incidentally, why have u stopped kabul from having a border with aksu?

this is an ambitious map that is accurate in some of the small details. however, i wonder whether u're trying to do too much with the map, by including local conflicts such as the caucasus, arunachal and kashmir. if u made tblisi and yerevan unplayable, then u'd have more sorely-needed space for the legend. +3 extra for kashmir is also a bit excessive on an oil conflict map for a single region of little strategic importance that has no oil.

what can the US 5th fleet actually bombard? it's confusing to have a bombard line that includes some of the caspian sea tankers, at the same time as the legend says that the bombard range is the indian ocean and kashmir.

The uprisings and terrorists will be part of the freely distributed territories at the start, which will now number 63.

why not start the uprisings as n1 neutrals, as implied by the latest version, to avoid players from suffering too much if allocated many uprisings at the start? if all of the above are done, then i think the starting locations will total 52 or 53, which are golden numbers.

ian.

[Beko the Great]

I love the concept! This is a kind of map that is missing on conquer club!

The artwork needs work but seems to be going in the right direction.

Two notes though:
Consider making Kashmir part of both india and pakistan,
Add some impassables: Himalayas, volga river, caucasus, indo river, etc. To make territ bonus with lesser borders and easier to defend. This would make bonus like Central Asia and Kasakstan more tempting

Cheers!

[Raskholnikov]

Thanks so much for your detailed comments:

nice to see this one back in the main foundry workshop!

As far as bonuses are concerned:

Middle East can probably be increased to at least 4 and Russia can probably be increased by 1 or 2.

ME is very easily defendable (two boundaries). Increasing the bonus could create an unfair advantage for someone who could quickly consolidate it.

Russia already gives the highest bonus among active starting regions. We could increase it to 7 though...

the map is supposed to be about oil mastery, but the balance of oil wealth seems to have changed by too much to be credible, especially since saudi arabia has only 1 region while similarly-sized iran and turkey have 6 each. give more weight to the middle east by adding more regions and refineries. i suggest jeddah (saudi arabia's second city), dammam (saudi arabia's oil capital), doha (the capital of qatar, possibly the most influential small country in the world), dubai (the biggest port in the middle east) and kuwait (having the third largest oil reserves in the middle east, the reason that it was conquered by iraq and therefore a very strange omission). of course, the bonus will need to increase.

Kazakhstan needs to be decreased by at least 3. The spreadsheet indicates it should be a +9.
Central Asia needs to be reduced to a +5.

The entire goal of the game is not to have players just consolidate a region and play defensively, but invade Central Asia and take control of tankers / refineries there as well as prevent others from consolidating either Kasakhstan or Central Asia. The way to achieve this is to mark up the bonuses for both . But, if everyone insists, they could go down to 10/5.

while central asia has a huge bonus for only 4 regions, kazakhstan has a similar central location but so many regions that it is virtually impossible to hold and therefore most sensible players will avoid attempting this bonus, which is surely not the intention. in an optimistic future, it's possible to see kazakhstan with almost as much wealth and influence as, say, iran or saudi arabia currently have, but certainly not more. a sensible number of regions is therefore 4 or 5, given that it has no natural defensive barriers, but a bonus that is high enough to encourage players to develop this area.

The game is not about oil reserves as such, but about the ability to move and refine the oil. The number of tankers and refineries are pretty close to representing reality. The original map we used for this actually displays them. This explains why we have quite a few refineries in Central Asia, but only a few in the Middle East. As to Kazakhstan, the high bonus number is designed exactly to ensure that no player will easily be allowed to consolidate that bonus, and thus to attract players to move into Central Asia and play "The Game".

ngari and nagqu can logically disappear and be merged with lhasa, since they are only small, unimportant towns with no significant industry, no oil reserves and no particular reason to feature on this map. similarly, herat and kandahar can disappear and be merged with kabul. incidentally, why have u stopped kabul from having a border with aksu?

The balance of the game is having 3 regions with 6 territories and 3 with 10. Kabul is a capital so we wanted not to have it directly as a border territory.

this is an ambitious map that is accurate in some of the small details. however, i wonder whether u're trying to do too much with the map, by including local conflicts such as the caucasus, arunachal and kashmir. if u made tblisi and yerevan unplayable, then u'd have more sorely-needed space for the legend. +3 extra for kashmir is also a bit excessive on an oil conflict map for a single region of little strategic importance that has no oil.

Since this will be a large map, we have enough space for the legend as is. I agree we could reduce Kashmir to +2; this simply reflects that India, China and Pakistan have fought wars over it and it is a key strategic area in Central Asia.

what can the US 5th fleet actually bombard? it's confusing to have a bombard line that includes some of the caspian sea tankers, at the same time as the legend says that the bombard range is the indian ocean and kashmir.

We will try to clarify this.

The uprisings and terrorists will be part of the freely distributed territories at the start, which will now number 63.

why not start the uprisings as n1 neutrals, as implied by the latest version, to avoid players from suffering too much if allocated many uprisings at the start? if all of the above are done, then i think the starting locations will total 52 or 53, which are golden numbers.

Thanks for all the good tips; we will take them into account as we develop the next version of the map.

ian.

[Raskholnikov]

I love the concept! This is a kind of map that is missing on conquer club!

Thanks for the comments and for the enthusiasm!

The artwork needs work but seems to be going in the right direction.

If you have any specific thoughts please do share them.

Two notes though:
Consider making Kashmir part of both india and pakistan,

That's why it starts as a neutral and gives bonus points to either of them if they can consolidate their region and hold Kashmir with it.

Add some impassables: Himalayas, volga river, caucasus, indo river, etc. To make territ bonus with lesser borders and easier to defend. This would make bonus like Central Asia and Kasakstan more tempting

We have Nepal and Bhutan as impassables, as well as Mongolia. Adding mountains and rivers barriers would be somewhat anachronistic for the 21st century modes of transportation and would make the map too heavy.

Cheers!

Thanks for all your time and suggestions.

[Oneyed]

just now I "found" this map and I must say I like it. it has great potention.
I did not read all 14 pages, so some my notices could be mentioned time ago.

when I look at map I have feeling that it is after nuclear catastrophe. what is good, but graphics needs to polish.

map is from 2020, so why there is shown only power of usa? I think china, india will be great powers not only in asia, but in the world.
it is confused where can fleets bombard. maybe you could try another colour of borders which indicate where can they bombard...

are metropolis needed? even most of them are capitals?

if this would be struggle for oil it is more logic (for me) to have any bonus for holding tankers + rafineries instead + capital.

looking forward on this.

Oneyed

[koontz1973]

Hi guys, sweet looking map and very different.

Oil mastery text at the top. Could do with a little clean up so it is not so wordy. I would change it to:
Winning Conditions
-Hold all 8 Terrorist groups
-Hold any 5 capitals with any 3 metropolises.

The only other thing I would consider is raising the fleet neutral to a 4 or 5. Whilst similar to the sea neutral, they have the power to knock out most bonuses and would be used mainly for that. No need to make it too easy.

Apart form that, I have nothing really to add right now. All looks pretty straight forward.

[Raskholnikov]

just now I "found" this map and I must say I like it. it has great potention.
I did not read all 14 pages, so some my notices could be mentioned time ago.

Many thanks for your comments.

when I look at map I have feeling that it is after nuclear catastrophe. what is good, but graphics needs to polish.

Actually it's the computer-generated style one would see in a Situation Room screen...

map is from 2020, so why there is shown only power of usa? I think china, india will be great powers not only in asia, but in the world.

I agree. That's why China and India have their own regions. The USA is off-map, so in order to portray its ability to project power in this region, we brought in the two Fleets.

it is confused where can fleets bombard. maybe you could try another colour of borders which indicate where can they bombard...

We will try to work on this.

are metropolis needed? even most of them are capitals?

Yes. They represent centers of economic power and help players get a bonus even if they don;t have a full region, which in this game will not be easy to do.

if this would be struggle for oil it is more logic (for me) to have any bonus for holding tankers + rafineries instead + capital.

Holding a capital in order for bonuses to be received avoids an uneven playing field at the start when some players would receive more troops than others because of initial bonuses. It also shows the power of am center of administration in order to coordinate oil transport and supply.
looking forward on this.

Thanks for your questions. I hope I was able to address them.

Oneyed

[Raskholnikov]

Hi guys, sweet looking map and very different.

Thanks for contributing to this map and for the supporting comments.

Oil mastery text at the top. Could do with a little clean up so it is not so wordy. I would change it to:
Winning Conditions
-Hold all 8 Terrorist groups
-Hold any 5 capitals with any 3 metropolises.

Yes, thanks, we are working on the legend to simplify it.

The only other thing I would consider is raising the fleet neutral to a 4 or 5. Whilst similar to the sea neutral, they have the power to knock out most bonuses and would be used mainly for that. No need to make it too easy.

Yes, we were thinking about this. We will make a change in the next map version.

Apart form that, I have nothing really to add right now. All looks pretty straight forward.

Glad to hear it. Please come back after we post the next version and let us know what you think.

[koontz1973]

it is confused where can fleets bombard. maybe you could try another colour of borders which indicate where can they bombard...

We will try to work on this.

I see no reason why it causes confusion. It is pretty straight forward . The tankers and terrorist are plainly marked on the map with very clear symbols and the blue lines are also straight forward. Leave as it is or you will run the risk of causing confusion where there is none.

[Oneyed]

it is confused where can fleets bombard. maybe you could try another colour of borders which indicate where can they bombard...

We will try to work on this.

I see no reason why it causes confusion. It is pretty straight forward . The tankers and terrorist are plainly marked on the map with very clear symbols and the blue lines are also straight forward. Leave as it is or you will run the risk of causing confusion where there is none.

well I mean this. it is not borders problem, but it could be solved: 5th fleet fit indian ocean and cashmir. but there are two tankers in its range in caspian see, which fits to 6th fleet.

Oneyed

[Oneyed]

if this would be struggle for oil it is more logic (for me) to have any bonus for holding tankers + rafineries instead + capital.

Holding a capital in order for bonuses to be received avoids an uneven playing field at the start when some players would receive more troops than others because of initial bonuses. It also shows the power of am center of administration in order to coordinate oil transport and supply.

combination of capital+rafinery+tanker sounds better to me. rafinery gives you raw stock, tankers get it to customer and capital coordinate this?

Oneyed

[koontz1973]

it is confused where can fleets bombard. maybe you could try another colour of borders which indicate where can they bombard...

We will try to work on this.

I see no reason why it causes confusion. It is pretty straight forward . The tankers and terrorist are plainly marked on the map with very clear symbols and the blue lines are also straight forward. Leave as it is or you will run the risk of causing confusion where there is none.

well I mean this. it is not borders problem, but it could be solved: 5th fleet fit indian ocean and cashmir. but there are two tankers in its range in caspian see, which fits to 6th fleet.

Oneyed

Yes, large map has two tankers but the small map only has one. That needs to be solved, but the 5th hitting the tankers in the Caspian sea is not a problem.

[pamoa]

just remember that the map you called small is the version 5 (630px x 600px)
and the map you called large is the next version (v06) also small but with the allowed oversize (800px x 800px)

[koontz1973]

pamoa, work on the large one then only for now please. Best to leave the small one out of the thread for now.

[ender516]

There was a passing mention of the possibility of players getting different number of troops at the start because of different bonuses. To avoid that on the very first turn, perhaps each bonus could have an extra territory that starts as a neutral 1 but which is positioned within a key or central territory so a player has to take it to win the bonus, but so it involves no real effort to continue to hold it. Think of a capitol building within a capital city. No one can hold a bonus on the drop, so there is no real first turn advantage, but there are no long term effects on gameplay either. [I have limited internet so I cannot review this topic in detail easily, so forgive me if this is already in place.]

[pamoa]

pamoa, work on the large one then only for now please. Best to leave the small one out of the thread for now.

again
just remember that the map YOU called small is the VERSION 5 (630px x 600px)
and the map YOU called large is the next version (v06) ALSO SMALL but with the allowed oversize (800px x 800px)
so you only see small versions of the map
and it is obvious we will work on the oversize version
as we asked for it

[Raskholnikov]

Stay tuned for the new version. We will incorporate most of the Forum suggestions regarding game-play, as well as having some exciting new additions that take advantage of the supersize format as well as of the 12-player format. Pamoa is working hard on this during his limited spare time, so please bear with us until we finalise it! Thanks to everyone who contributed with thoughts, ideas, advice.

[Armandolas]

hello. I can u replace map image from OP?
Photobucket says there is no pic
thanks

[Raskholnikov]

Hi, We will update soon with the latest version. Bear with us, please We're working on it Btw I love your Napoleonic Tournament. I organised one very similar to that a couple of years ago

[pamoa]

here we are
back on tracks
brand new version

below version 07 SMALL

Click image to enlarge.

NUMBER OF REGIONS

68 freely distributed starting regions
29 neutral regions
97 territories in total

_6 Eastern Europe zone
10 Russia zone
10 Kazakhstan zone
_6 Turkey zone
_3 Caucasus zone
_4 Central Asia zone
10 China zone
_6 Africa zone
10 Middle East zone
_6 Iran zone
_6 Afpak zone
10 India zone

_2 contested regions
_1 al-mahdi region
_1 nsa region
_2 fleets
_4 seas
97 territories in total

LEGENDS TEXTS

> STRUGGLE FOR OIL
When Demand Outstrips Supply
- by Raskholnikov, pamoa, ender516
To WIN, control oil flow for one round
- hold either the Mahdi and all 10 Terrorists
- or 1 Capital and all 11 Metropolises

> SEA CONTROL
Black Sea, Caspian Sea, Mediteranean Sea
Indian Ocean (including Persian Gulf
and Red Sea) :
- each connects to all bordering Tankers
- all revert to 3 neutral following round

> N.S.A.
National Security Agency, the United States
signals intelligence or cyber-army :
- can be requested by any Capital
- can cyber-bombard any Metropolis
- reverts to 6 neutral following round

> AL-MAHDI
The Prophesized Redeemer of Islam or
The Occulted Twelfth Imam :
- can be revealed by any Uprising
- can conquer Cairo or any Terrorist
- gives +2 for each Terrorist controlled

> SPECIAL ATTACKS
Capitals
one-way attack US Fleets or NSA
Metropolises
attack each other
US Fleets revert to 4 neutral
bombard in their range
any Terrorist, Tanker or Refinery
NSA revert to 6 neutral
bombard any Metropolis
Terrorists
attack each other
bombard Refineries in a range of two
Uprisings
one-way conquer Al-Mahdi
Al-Mahdi
one-way conquers Cairo or Terrorists

> BONUSES
Regions + 3 regardless of number held
Capitals + 1
Metropolises + 1 auto-deploy
Uprisings - 1 each turn
Terrorists if held with Al-Mahdi
+ 2 each
Refineries if held with a Capital
+ 4 for first eight then +2 for every four
Tankers if held with a Capital
+ 3 for first six then + 2 for every three
Kashmir + 2 if held with
New Delhi, Islamabad or Beijing
Arunchal + 1 if held with
New Delhi or Beijing

> ZONES' BONUSES
Eastern Europe 5
Russia 7
Kazakhstan 10
Turkey 3
Cuaucasus 3
Central Asia 5
China 5
Africa 2
Middle East 3
Iran 4
AFPAK 4
India 4

[Raskholnikov]

Hi all,

After a lot of hard work, pamoa has just posted a major update of the map.

Below you will find an overview of the changes introduced by this latest version.

New features and changes:

Since we now the possibility of 12 starters, we decided to take advantage of the the oversize map and have 10 full zones (ie with capitals and metropolises).

1. Therefore, Kazakhstan was upgraded with a capital at Astana, and thus is now our 5th 10-region zone.

2. We also added a 6th 6-region Zone, Africa, with a capital at Khartoum and a metropolis at Cairo.

3. To compensate for the loss of Egypt and further to Forum suggestions, we createed the Doha region in the Middle East zone.

4. Also further to Forum suggestions, we changed the name of the Middle East zone metropolis from Abu Dhabi to Dubai.

5. We correspondingly upgraded the number of special regions, as follows:

a) from 8 to 10 Terrorists;
b) from 8 to 10 Uprisings;
c) 24 tankers - with bonus structure : +4 for first eight, then +2 for every 4
d) 27 refineries - with bonus structure: +3 for first six, then +2 for every 3

6. In order to avoid the famous "initial drop bonus" issue, we have agreed to the rule requiring a player to first conquer a Capital before receiving any bonus from Tankers or Refineries.

7. We have added a "Mediterranean Sea" region, as it was the only unplayable water area, and with the introduction of Africa there are now enough tankers to connect it to.

8. We also added a tenth region in India, so that we now have five 10-region zones and five 6-region zones.

9. We also modified the winning conditions, in order to equalise the difficulty level between them:

a) The first winning condition is to hold for one round Al-Mahdi (n8) and 10 terrorists, each of which give a +2 if held with the Mahdi. The US 5th and 6th Fleets can bombard the Terrorist regions. The Fleets are n4, can be accessed from any Capital and turn back to n4 at the end of each round.

b) The second winning condition is now to hold all Metropolises and one capital (n4). Each Metropolis is a self-deploying +1. To equalise difficulty levels for winning conditions, we have:

c) added an extra Metropolis, in Central Asia, to raise their number to 11, thus complementing the difference between Al-Mahdi (n8) and the Capital (n4) required for the second victory condition.

d) added the US National Security Agency function to compensate for the US 5th and 6th Fleets. The NSA (n6) can be conquered by any Capital and can "cyber-bombard" any Metropolis, thus simulating electronic warfare which is increasingly important in destabilizing the economies of opponents (represented by the Metropolises).

e) Also in order to equalise the difficulty level between the two winning conditions, Metropolises can now all attack each other, just like Terrorists can.

These changes truly gives a unique identity and game role to metropolises and completely distinguishes them from capitals, whilst also creating a totally different, yet equivalent (in terms of difficulty) winning condition to the Al-Mahdi / Terrorists option.

f) In order to have 11 Metropolises, we added an 11th one in the Central Asian region of Taskhent. This also upgrades the importance of the Central Asian zone and drawls players to the center of the map, even if Central Asia is not a full zone with a capital.

10. Further to Forum suggestions, we have revised the bonus structure of the Zones, as follows:

a) Russia is now +7;
b) Kazakhstan is now +10;
c) Middle East is +3;
d) Central Asia is +5;
e) the new Africa Zone is +2.
f) Kashmir's bonus is lowered to +2; and
g) Arunchal's bonus is lowered to +1.

11. We have clearly indicated each US Fleet's bombing range on their map arc, so there will be no confusion. They bombard tankers, terrorists and refineries. All regions having any of these symbols within fleet's arc can be bombarded; if part of a region is within the arc, but the actual tanker/terrorist/refinery symbol is not, then that territory is not bombardable by the Fleet. This is made clear in the legend, which states that what is bombardable are th tankers/terrorists/refineries, not the regions as such. In any case, visually this is very clear, as a board commentator noticed.

12. Again as per Forum suggestions, we have reduced the attrition of Uprisings from -2 to -1, to lessen their impact on their holders.

In conclusion, we now have:

a) five 10-region zones;
b) five 5-region zones;
c) one 7-region central area;
d) four sea regions (n3);
e) two US Fleets (n4);
f) one NSA (n6);
g) one Al-Mahdi (n8); and
h) two unattached regions (Kashmir and Arumchal),

for a total of 97 regions. With this, we now fully conform to the Super-size maps' condition to use every pixel of the map -which we now certainly do!

That's about it. We look forward to everyone's comments and constructive criticism!

Raskh

[pamoa]

6. In order to avoid the famous "initial drop bonus" issue, we have agreed to the rule requiring a player to first conquer a Capital before receiving any bonus from Tankers or Refineries

we also modified the bonus per number of regions held which is now invariable at 3
in order to incite players to go for bonus and not just collecting an amount of whatever regions

[koontz1973]

Guys, I will be going over this later today with another map or two, but right of the bat, the tanker at Teheran, it is on the blue line, so is it in range of the 6th fleet or not? Yes or no, the tanker needs to be moved to make it clear. Apart from that, it looks like you got most things.

[Raskholnikov]

Thanks. No, it's not. We will move it to make this clear.

[koontz1973]

Things that need adjustment.

Indian Ocean - can it attack the tanker at Khartoum? If yes, it would be nice to make the passageway at the bottom of the map (sanaa) a bit bigger to clear this up.
N.S.A part of the legend.
It wording can cause confusion. By saying requested I assume you mean attack and by cyber bombard, you mean bombard. So why not just say attack and bombard?
So something like this:
can be requested (attacked) by any capital
can bombard any metropolis
By adding the one word (attacked) and removing cyber, you clear up any potential for confusion over what it does and still allows you to keep the flavour of the idea you have got here.
The same can be said for the Al-Mahdi part as well. Where you say revealed, add attacked in brackets afterwards.
Metropolises, I reckon you could lower the neutral to a 3.

Idea.
You have these huge blue lines on the map for the fleet attacks. You have no crossover attacks so why not colour the tankers differently and say that. By removing the lines, you will clear the map up and also allow players to not have to think so much. Great for those speed games. Under each fleet name and number you could add bombards all tanker icon of a colour.
As I said, this will allow you to lose those two blue lines, keep the idea and allow for a quick reference for players. The only extra thing to do for the legend is to add the second coloured tanker under the one you have now.