[Abandoned] Massacre à Paris

[cairnswk]

OK, there was lots of previous discussion some months back about gameplay and the visisbility of component and borders...etc

Can we make a move on finalising gameplay please?

[sempaispellcheck]

Attached is my first draft of the XML for V12.

Unfortunately, Gilligan (our resident XML expert) has informed me that there is no such thing as conditional bonuses autodeploy (EDIT), so the doubled autodeploy is not going to happen.

Also, since you haven't yet responded to my PMs (it hasn't been that long, but I'm not the world's most patient person), I'll post my notes and questions here to be sure you see them.

Notes:
Henry de Navarre should be Henri de Navarre.
The word is "Maisons," not "Masions" - it's right in the legend, but not on the map itself.
Bottom right corner - there should be a space between the comma and the "f" in "fences."
There should be an accent on the first lowercase "e" in "Entrée."
Legend at right - there should be space between "with" and "any" in "with any Huguenot." - though this will probably be deleted anyway, since it is impossible to code with current XML.
Legend should say H16 borders H26, not H18.
Dueler C35 still has an asterisk - please remove that, since it no longer means anything.

Question:
What (if any) regions do you want to start neutral (besides the buildings and the royals)? How many neutrals should they start with? Do you want any of them to be killers?

sempai

[Gilligan]

Well you can do conditional bonuses, just not auto deploys.

[cairnswk]

Attached is my first draft of the XML for V12.

Unfortunately, Gilligan (our resident XML expert) has informed me that there is no such thing as conditional bonuses autodeploy (EDIT), so the doubled autodeploy is not going to happen.

Well you can do conditional bonuses, just not auto deploys.

OK, we'll do conditional bonus....
each dueler is still +1 autodeploy.

but the new bonus is:
Henri de Navarre with Huguenot group
or Charles IX with Catholique group
from each bonus region
doubles the bonus

Notes:
Henry de Navarre should be Henri de Navarre.
The word is "Maisons," not "Masions" - it's right in the legend, but not on the map itself.
Bottom right corner - there should be a space between the comma and the "f" in "fences."
There should be an accent on the first lowercase "e" in "Entrée."
Legend at right - there should be space between "with" and "any" in "with any Huguenot." - though this will probably be deleted anyway, since it is impossible to code with current XML.
Legend should say H16 borders H26, not H18.
Dueler C35 still has an asterisk - please remove that, since it no longer means anything.

Fixed.

Question:
What (if any) regions do you want to start neutral (besides the buildings and the royals)? How many neutrals should they start with? Do you want any of them to be killers?sempai

Neutrals are thus marked on the map - even temporarily - so please beware they may change
I hadn't planned any to be killers, nor have i heard anyone argu for that.

Version 13.

[sempaispellcheck]

the new bonus is:
Henri de Navarre with Huguenot group
or Charles IX with Catholique group
from each bonus region
doubles the bonus

Not sure I understand this.
You would only receive the bonus if you hold all Huguenots and all Catholiques in a given region, yes?
So simply holding Henri and all Huguenots in a region wouldn't give you anything if you didn't hold all the Catholiques in that region (0 doubled is still 0).
OR do you want Henri and all Huguenots in a region to give the bonus even if all Catholiques in the region aren't held?

Neutrals are thus marked on the map - even temporarily - so please beware they may change

OK. I've coded the neutrals into the attached XML - but they can easily be changed if/when needed.

sempai

[cairnswk]

the new bonus is:
Henri de Navarre with Huguenot group
or Charles IX with Catholique group
from each bonus region
doubles the bonus

Not sure I understand this.
You would only receive the bonus if you hold all Huguenots and all Catholiques in a given region, yes?
So simply holding Henri and all Huguenots in a region wouldn't give you anything if you didn't hold all the Catholiques in that region (0 doubled is still 0).
OR do you want Henri and all Huguenots in a region to give the bonus even if all Catholiques in the region aren't held?
sempai

Your first is incorrect, but your second is correct.
The optional word is OR in the statement.
So Henri de Navarre with the Huguenot group in any bonus region doubles the bonus...you do not have to hold the Catholiques also since the Catholiques are not aligned religiously with Henri de Navarre.
The opposite applies to Charles IX.
If you hold Henri de Navarre and Charles IX and all of a region, then the bonus quadruples.

This provides a good conditional strategy. You have to hold the guards, the buildings, or the royal personage and fort them very well to stop your opponent from gaining those extra bonuses.

[cairnswk]

After all the work done previously...i'm afraid this map will fail...if no-one bothers with it from here in.

[koontz1973]

After all the work done previously...i'm afraid this map will fail...if no-one bothers with it from here in.

cairns, give me till Tuesday please. Will have a read of the thread since the last look I had and give you any notes I see.

[koontz1973]

cairns, honestly, I cannot see much wrong with this - but:

Movement between duellers is pretty well explained in the legend and I like the idea of having a map with no lines on it. But the symbols are overtly complicated IMO when you attack over borders. When you need to start adding examples in the legend, it might be time to try and have a think about a different way. When you consider that you have explained how the attacks work, why the need for the symbols at all? By adding the symbols and text, on the one hand you seem to be trying to stop any confusion, but by adding them, I feel you have added to it (I hope you understand this ). By removing the symbols and examples, you have more room to expand on the picture example making that even more clear. A simple line of text saying it goes over borders as well should suffice. What is your opinion on this?

Les Bonus.

+1 auto deploy dueller

Do all duellers get an auto deploy?

If I hold Henri or Charles, I double my bonus?

So if I hold Henri and all of the green men in Port Neufue, what is my bonus? Or does the doubling or the bonus only happens when I hold the bonus (both green and yellow duellers)?

[cairnswk]

cairns, honestly, I cannot see much wrong with this - but:

Movement between duellers is pretty well explained in the legend and I like the idea of having a map with no lines on it. But the symbols are overtly complicated IMO when you attack over borders. When you need to start adding examples in the legend, it might be time to try and have a think about a different way. When you consider that you have explained how the attacks work, why the need for the symbols at all? By adding the symbols and text, on the one hand you seem to be trying to stop any confusion, but by adding them, I feel you have added to it (I hope you understand this ). By removing the symbols and examples, you have more room to expand on the picture example making that even more clear. A simple line of text saying it goes over borders as well should suffice. What is your opinion on this?

Yes koontz i agree re no lines, that would be horrendous, but this is what the players who input into this map couldn't quite understand, and the borders of who was able to attack whom was most in dispute.
Thus the symbols were added to stop the confusion for those inputting.
I knew what i was about, but they didn't, so it stays as it is i am afraid.

Les Bonus.
+1 auto deploy dueller
Do all duellers get an auto deploy?

Yes

If I hold Henri or Charles, I double my bonus?

by them selves, no.

So if I hold Henri and all of the green men in Port Neufue, what is my bonus?

4

Or does the doubling or the bonus only happens when I hold the bonus (both green and yellow duellers)?

well no,
henri is protestant - green
charles is cathloic - yellow
so you can't have them siding with the opposite team, can you.

You should read the previous 8 pages to see how this map came to this

[koontz1973]

You should read the previous 8 pages to see how this map came to this

I know their was something I should of done .

So Port Neufue is worth a total of 4 in auto deploys, 2 as a normal bonus or 8 if I hold 2 other regions (Charles and Henri). That is a lot to hand out?

[cairnswk]

You should read the previous 8 pages to see how this map came to this

I know their was something I should of done .

So Port Neufue is worth a total of 4 in auto deploys, 2 as a normal bonus or 8 if I hold 2 other regions (Charles and Henri). That is a lot to hand out?

their > there

at present...
if you hold all of port neufue there are 4 autodeplays plus 2 for the region.
if you also hold either Charles or Henri then it's 4 autodeploys, plus 4 for the region.
if yuo hold both Charles and Henri then it's 4 autodeploys, plus 8 for the region.
yes it is a lot , but if you had the king on your side in those days, wasn't it like having extra strength?

[sempaispellcheck]

Thank you both. I understand it perfectly now.

One question, though, cairns:
If you hold Charles and all Catholics in a region, but NOT all Huguenots in the region, do you want that to give a bonus as well?

sempai

[cairnswk]

Thank you both. I understand it perfectly now.

One question, though, cairns:
If you hold Charles and all Catholics in a region, but NOT all Huguenots in the region, do you want that to give a bonus as well?

sempai

no. if you hold Charles and catholics in a region, you get the bonus, that's what the legend says.
why would you give a bonus for NOT holding all the Huguenots?

[koontz1973]

OK, now that we agree on the bonuses being a lot, is there a way to negate some of it maybe? Here are some ideas for you to have a think about. Each one should be seen as a single idea as they may not work together.

[1]Double the bonus once only for either Henri or Charles.

[2]With the auto deploys being a large part of the bonuses, how about reducing the region bonuses by 50%? This would work better if you ignore [1]. So the first doubling will give you a normal bonus for the region and the second would give you double.

[3]You could introduce a captain of the guard or two into each region for the auto deploys (should be easy to add and would not take up any extra room). Hand these out as starting positions so your neutrals are not effected too much. I am not sure (I will ask ian) if a map of all auto deploy would be OK.

[cairnswk]

...
[2]With the auto deploys being a large part of the bonuses, how about reducing the region bonuses by 50%? This would work better if you ignore [1]. So the first doubling will give you a normal bonus for the region and the second would give you double.
...

i think this option is acceptable for the small regions
but not sure about the larger regions...perhaps some adjustment needed for the larger.

[koontz1973]

...
[2]With the auto deploys being a large part of the bonuses, how about reducing the region bonuses by 50%? This would work better if you ignore [1]. So the first doubling will give you a normal bonus for the region and the second would give you double.
...

i think this option is acceptable for the small regions
but not sure about the larger regions...perhaps some adjustment needed for the larger.

I will run the numbers tonight then to see what the calculator spits out at me. Then see what might be good numbers.

[cairnswk]

...
[2]With the auto deploys being a large part of the bonuses, how about reducing the region bonuses by 50%? This would work better if you ignore [1]. So the first doubling will give you a normal bonus for the region and the second would give you double.
...

i think this option is acceptable for the small regions
but not sure about the larger regions...perhaps some adjustment needed for the larger.

I will run the numbers tonight then to see what the calculator spits out at me. Then see what might be good numbers.

koontz, do we need an adjusted calculator for new 12 player games?

[koontz1973]

koontz, do we need an adjusted calculator for new 12 player games?

A difference between the 8 and 12 layer games should be so small it is not worth it. As it is a smaller jump than the current 2-8 player games it is already programmed for. But another good question that others may of overlooked. I will raise it with the higher ups.

[cairnswk]

koontz, do we need an adjusted calculator for new 12 player games?

A difference between the 8 and 12 layer games should be so small it is not worth it. As it is a smaller jump than the current 2-8 player games it is already programmed for. But another good question that others may of overlooked. I will raise it with the higher ups.

Thanks koontz

[koontz1973]

cairns, two things today for you to have a look at. Lets deal with the bonus numbers first though.

Going from top to bottom on your list. These numbers are what the bonus calculator is spitting out at me and what I feel they should be when you take into account the doubling for holding either or both Charles and Henri. As we discussed yesterday, the first number wil be the bonus for holding the region, the second number is when you hold either Henri or Charles and the third one when you hold both Henri and Charles.
Port Neufue
2.83
1,2,4
Parvis de Sud
6
2,4,8
Parvis de Nord
4.75
2,4,8
la Ville
2.75
1,2,4
Port des Tuileries
6.42
3,6,12
Carrousel A
8.58
4,8,16
Carrousel B
8.92
4,8,16
Carrousel C
7.67
4,8,16 (lower number than above but rounded up for this one).
Carrousel D
4.67
2,4,8
Maisons du Sud
6
3,6,12
Maisons du Nord
6.08
3,6,12
port Ecole st, Germain
4.67
2,4,8
Cour du Louvre
6.17
3,6,12

None of the above numbers have I taken into account of placement on the map yet but these numbers are pretty standard numbers.

Secondly, with respect to the auto deploys, I mentioned to you that I would ask ian about this:

[3]You could introduce a captain of the guard or two into each region for the auto deploys (should be easy to add and would not take up any extra room). Hand these out as starting positions so your neutrals are not effected too much. I am not sure (I will ask ian) if a map of all auto deploy would be OK.

I got my reply this morning from him. I am not going to quote him word for word, but like me, he is not thrilled with this idea for the main reason that first turn players get a huge advantage in small regions.
Here are some of his ideas to try and accommodate the auto deploys into the map.
No auto deploys in corners.
Auto deploy troops only start with 2 troops so first turn they get to three like the rest.
Corner bonuses would need to be removed or only a minority of duellers have auto deploys. So what I think you end up getting to with ian, is back to my original idea of a captain of the guard. Each area (apart from Port Neufue and la Ville) getting one or two auto deploys in.

Thoughts?

[cairnswk]

Code: Select all

[quote="koontz1973"]cairns, two things today for you to have a look at. Lets deal with the bonus numbers first though.

Going from top to bottom on your list. These numbers are what the [b][color=#008040]bonus calculator[/color][/b] is spitting out at me and what I feel they should be when you take into account the doubling for holding either or both Charles and Henri. As we discussed yesterday, the first number wil be the bonus for holding the region, the second number is when you hold either Henri or Charles and the third one when you hold both Henri and Charles.
Port Neufue
[b][color=#008040]2.83[/color][/b]
1,2,4
Parvis de Sud
[b][color=#008040]6[/color][/b]
2,4,8
Parvis de Nord
[b][color=#008040]4.75[/color][/b]
2,4,8
la Ville
[b][color=#008040]2.75[/color][/b]
1,2,4
Port des Tuileries
[b][color=#008040]6.42[/color][/b]
3,6,12
Carrousel A
[b][color=#008040]8.58[/color][/b]
4,8,16
Carrousel B
[b][color=#008040]8.92[/color][/b]
4,8,16
Carrousel C
[b][color=#008040]7.67[/color][/b]
4,8,16 (lower number than above but rounded up for this one).
Carrousel D
[b][color=#008040]4.67[/color][/b]
2,4,8
Maisons du Sud
[b][color=#008040]6[/color][/b]
3,6,12
Maisons du Nord
[b][color=#008040]6.08[/color][/b]
3,6,12
port Ecole st, Germain
[b][color=#008040]4.67[/color][/b]
2,4,8
Cour du Louvre
[b][color=#008040]6.17[/color][/b]
3,6,12

None of the above numbers have I taken into account of placement on the map yet but these numbers are pretty standard numbers.
...[/quote]

koontz, can you post for me an image of your bonus calculator please, so i can see where those green numbers come from?
my calculator does not get the same numbers.

[cairnswk]

...
Secondly, with respect to the auto deploys, I mentioned to you that I would ask ian about this:

[3]You could introduce a captain of the guard or two into each region for the auto deploys (should be easy to add and would not take up any extra room). Hand these out as starting positions so your neutrals are not effected too much. I am not sure (I will ask ian) if a map of all auto deploy would be OK.

I got my reply this morning from him. I am not going to quote him word for word, but like me, he is not thrilled with this idea for the main reason that first turn players get a huge advantage in small regions.
Here are some of his ideas to try and accommodate the auto deploys into the map.
No auto deploys in corners.
Auto deploy troops only start with 2 troops so first turn they get to three like the rest.
Corner bonuses would need to be removed or only a minority of duellers have auto deploys. So what I think you end up getting to with ian, is back to my original idea of a captain of the guard. Each area (apart from Port Neufue and la Ville) getting one or two auto deploys in.

Thoughts?

koontz, thanks for the enquiry with ian and his thoughts.
i am still not in favour of adding anymore figures to the map for clutter reasons - re captains of the guard.
Nor am i in favour of having starting territories. I beleive the concept of the game should populate as many regions as possible with players.

Towards the autodeploy solution...
there are 126 regions.
10 are already coded as neutrals being buildings, royals and small regions.
this leaves 116 as the golden number.
the next favourable golden number is 104 (116-12=104)
so i would propose the following n12 :
1. each of the two small regions, - la ville and port neufue receive 1 more neutral (2) including the guard in port neufue
2. this leaves 7 other guards which can be coded highly (n6) leaving 3 more of choice (possibly in the high count regions)

Auto deploy troops only start with 2 troops so first turn they get to three like the rest.

I like this idea

Since the drop from here will be random, in 1v1 it might still possibly be favourable for 1st player to have advantage.
To decrease those odds between dice and the drop, would it be possible to code each region with autodeploy alternating between 1 and 2.
So, to explain...
in one region, the catholics get +2 and the huguenots get +1
in another region the opposite happens, the catholics get +1 and the huguenots get +2
the randomisation from drop combines with alternating autodeploy therfore to decrease the odds of any player in any situation having too much advantage.
the two small regions could be coded to +1 in port neufue and +2 in la ville.

koontz, the other thing i have thought of doing is to increase the building access by 4 (one on each section) (since these are neutral regions this only increases the nnumber of regions to 120 which is not a problem)...
so that the access to the royals in each section can be made conditional on holding both building access terts,
this will make it harder to obtain the royals for that double bonus.

Also i am considering changing from just Henri and Charles to the 4 royals as the extra double bonus, this will give more opportunity in larger games, and harder access in smaller games esp. 1v1 (if they don't ignore this completely and wipe each their opponents out i.e. like assassin)

Thoughts?

[cairnswk]

Version 14..some gamplay update considerations from above...please take no notice of the bonus region numbers as these are not finalised.

Click image to enlarge.