[GP] [Rules] Eliminate Deferred Troops

[darth emperor]

Is there still a loophole where you start a manual freestyle 1 vs 1 game on City Mogul and miss the deployment round in order to go first in the second round ?

That's considered abuse if done frequently. I remember a case where the person was warned/noted/something or other stating that it was against the rules.

Correct.

And even if still is there, this shouldn't mean that you have to delete the deferred troops, you should arrenge the problem of that map.

I would admit that the advantages of missing a turn are small but they are there more often than not in team games, for example quads where the front line are 4 players against 2 the other 2 players playing a supporting roll, the team with 4 on the front line have to guess where to place troops if the other 2 have missed a turn they can then deploy a large stack on any given border if they had played there turn you would be able to counter fairly, it is difficult to discribe the situation without being in a live game.

Yes, I understand that situation, but again they have to wait to the next turn to use them, so the opponent team has a full turn to counter-attack that, its easy, deploy there, make reinforces there, and even if you don't make any reinforcment there, by just deploying 1 full round you have counter-assault that, its as simple as team comunication, any decent team can arrenge that

But for me the main reason for changing the missed turn rule so that troops are not carried forward to the next go is the the motivation not to miss your go, it would encourage more regular play, and reduce the missed turn stats, and i do not believe it would be detrimental to the casual nature of the conquer club community, at the very least having the missed turn rule as part of game settings so people would be free to choose whether they wanted to play a a game with the enhanced missed rule changes. i see no reason why this could not be tried for a given period to see if it proved popular.

No, not at all... people (who knows how to play) don't miss the turn in order to get deffered troops, that's not the motivation. I'll assume you didn't read my previous post, because then you'll see that the motivations are different, and taking out the defered troops won't make any difference.

And it seems good to make as many options as possible, but this is not always truth and less in this case
-In many games, people don't miss turn, so making this option is useless for these games.
-More options, means more to code and more chances that there are bugs, and take more time in solve an error. Therefore when they make an option they should do of something that can be more useful.

So either you leave the deffered armies as its, or take them our, or another option, but don't make an option when creating a game for this. (In my opinion, better to leave it as it is now.

[eddie2]

Is there still a loophole where you start a manual freestyle 1 vs 1 game on City Mogul and miss the deployment round in order to go first in the second round ?

That's considered abuse if done frequently. I remember a case where the person was warned/noted/something or other stating that it was against the rules.

Correct.

yep what is also correct is that in nuclear spoils players who purposely don't end turn should also be warned noted

[Robert The Red]

Robert The Red wrote:I would admit that the advantages of missing a turn are small but they are there more often than not in team games, for example quads where the front line are 4 players against 2 the other 2 players playing a supporting roll, the team with 4 on the front line have to guess where to place troops if the other 2 have missed a turn they can then deploy a large stack on any given border if they had played there turn you would be able to counter fairly, it is difficult to discribe the situation without being in a live game.

Yes, I understand that situation, but again they have to wait to the next turn to use them, so the opponent team has a full turn to counter-attack that, its easy, deploy there, make reinforces there, and even if you don't make any reinforcment there, by just deploying 1 full round you have counter-assault that, its as simple as team comunication, any decent team can arrenge that.

I disagree and like many others have seen it used as an advantage.

[Robert The Red]

Robert The Red wrote:But for me the main reason for changing the missed turn rule so that troops are not carried forward to the next go is the the motivation not to miss your go, it would encourage more regular play, and reduce the missed turn stats, and i do not believe it would be detrimental to the casual nature of the conquer club community, at the very least having the missed turn rule as part of game settings so people would be free to choose whether they wanted to play a a game with the enhanced missed rule changes. i see no reason why this could not be tried for a given period to see if it proved popular.

No, not at all... people (who knows how to play) don't miss the turn in order to get deffered troops, that's not the motivation. I'll assume you didn't read my previous post, because then you'll see that the motivations are different, and taking out the defered troops won't make any difference.

First of all not everyone on here is how you put it

(who knows how to play)

. and i i am not saying they are motivated to miss there turn to get defered troops but that will be motivated to take there turn if the troops are not defered.

as for the computer coding to add it as a game option in the settings, that i am not qualified to give an opinion, but i sure some reading this will. though having seen and used chatglove and bob, i am sure the coding for a missed turn rule option would be no more complicated to do.

Robert the red

[darth emperor]

Robert The Red wrote:I would admit that the advantages of missing a turn are small but they are there more often than not in team games, for example quads where the front line are 4 players against 2 the other 2 players playing a supporting roll, the team with 4 on the front line have to guess where to place troops if the other 2 have missed a turn they can then deploy a large stack on any given border if they had played there turn you would be able to counter fairly, it is difficult to discribe the situation without being in a live game.

Yes, I understand that situation, but again they have to wait to the next turn to use them, so the opponent team has a full turn to counter-attack that, its easy, deploy there, make reinforces there, and even if you don't make any reinforcment there, by just deploying 1 full round you have counter-assault that, its as simple as team comunication, any decent team can arrenge that.

I disagree and like many others have seen it used as an advantage.

Really, I would want to see that... anytime (when I get free slots) let's make a 4v4 and use this strategy of missing turn. I assure you, that you won't get any advantage and even you'll get disadvantage

Robert The Red wrote:But for me the main reason for changing the missed turn rule so that troops are not carried forward to the next go is the the motivation not to miss your go, it would encourage more regular play, and reduce the missed turn stats, and i do not believe it would be detrimental to the casual nature of the conquer club community, at the very least having the missed turn rule as part of game settings so people would be free to choose whether they wanted to play a a game with the enhanced missed rule changes. i see no reason why this could not be tried for a given period to see if it proved popular.

No, not at all... people (who knows how to play) don't miss the turn in order to get deffered troops, that's not the motivation. I'll assume you didn't read my previous post, because then you'll see that the motivations are different, and taking out the defered troops won't make any difference.

First of all not everyone on here is how you put it

(who knows how to play)

. and i i am not saying they are motivated to miss there turn to get defered troops but that will be motivated to take there turn if the troops are not defered.

When I say who knows to play, I don't mean he has to be a master, but he has to be average, even if someone misses his turn, an average opponent will be able to get an advantage from there. And I'm telling you, that in most cases where you can get an advantage by missing turn they won't care if they get deffered turns (as explained with examples in my first post)

as for the computer coding to add it as a game option in the settings, that i am not qualified to give an opinion, but i sure some reading this will. though having seen and used chatglove and bob, i am sure the coding for a missed turn rule option would be no more complicated to do.

BOB and chatglove are user-coded, what you are asking for an option is something that the users can't do, but only the admin. So you can't compare them.

[scotthansen1]

I think it is wrong that someone who misses a turn should get the reinforcements on their following turn, I believe that some use this tacticaly and i think that it would motivate people not to miss their turns.

Robert The Red

I totally agree Im tired of waiting to play just so they get double the troops and break open or even out a close game. This seems to be the new stategy now , im in a game right now where the player has missed 8 times, ( 8 days ) thats just stupid and now he shows up with a ton of troops and its game over

[Woodruff]

I think it is wrong that someone who misses a turn should get the reinforcements on their following turn, I believe that some use this tacticaly and i think that it would motivate people not to miss their turns.

Robert The Red

I totally agree Im tired of waiting to play just so they get double the troops and break open or even out a close game. This seems to be the new stategy now , im in a game right now where the player has missed 8 times, ( 8 days ) thats just stupid and now he shows up with a ton of troops and its game over

If he's missed that many turns and you haven't taken advantage of his having missed that many turns, the fault is yours, not theirs. When someone misses a turn, it's only an advantage to them if you ALLOW it to be an advantage to them. Don't allow it. Make them pay for missing.

[agentcom]

darth emperor has won this thread with his precisely correct statements.

Completely agree. I didn't read his entire post, but I can tell that he's on the right track. I've made the same points many times, though not in as much detail.

[Robert The Red]

darth emperor has won this thread with his precisely correct statements.

Completely agree. I didn't read his entire post, but I can tell that he's on the right track. I've made the same points many times, though not in as much detail.

Darth Vader is not right. particulary re the motivation to play. I am not saying People are more motivated to miss there turn for double the spoils on the next turn, even though in ocaisional circumstances it can have an advantage and like others, i have seen that.

what I am saying to be clear is : if people knew they were not going to get their spoils defered, they would make a bit more effort to take their turn. It would do nothing to alter the casual nature of the game. It could only have a positive effect. It would not take much coding and would be a simple thing to try.

Robert The Red

[agentcom]

And I think people here are saying that there already is a good enough punishment for the missed turn. The balance has been properly struck. If you kicked players out of any game once they missed a single turn, you would likewise increase the incentive for taking turns. However, most players would probably not like this rule, especially those fremiums just starting out that the site hopes will someday buy premium. So, if you want to make this a question about how much disincentive should be provided for missed turns, then simply reinterpret our answers as "we're pretty much at the desired level."

[nameless nemesis]

if missing your turn is considered legitimate stragedy maybe there could be a SKIP GO button so that people dont have to wait 24hrs this would especially be a benefit to new freemium players

[TheForgivenOne]

Robert The Red wrote:I would admit that the advantages of missing a turn are small but they are there more often than not in team games, for example quads where the front line are 4 players against 2 the other 2 players playing a supporting roll, the team with 4 on the front line have to guess where to place troops if the other 2 have missed a turn they can then deploy a large stack on any given border if they had played there turn you would be able to counter fairly, it is difficult to discribe the situation without being in a live game.

Yes, I understand that situation, but again they have to wait to the next turn to use them, so the opponent team has a full turn to counter-attack that, its easy, deploy there, make reinforces there, and even if you don't make any reinforcment there, by just deploying 1 full round you have counter-assault that, its as simple as team comunication, any decent team can arrenge that.

I disagree and like many others have seen it used as an advantage.

I have been in MANY games where users have missed a turn, and basically lost all chances to get back into a game.

You don't have a chance to defend your bonus, regain a bonus, break a bonus, etc. Heck, a few times I've been away from internet for longer then I thought, and missed a turn in 30 separate games. In each of those games, I lost a lot of ground. To me, missing a turn, is EXACTLY the same as starting your turn, deploying your troops, then ending without reinforcement.

A few situations may, MAY give you an advantage, but a majority of the time, all it does is hurt you. Trust me.

[hmsps]

I think because of some players limited knowledge due to lack of games etc, they have no clue how damaging a missed turn can be, example Speed Game 11364981, fairly even game, yellow misses a turn, gets his 5 deffered and hey presto game over. So please don't post your bull to say it doesnt matter as it does, if you want it to be a casual game make the turns weekly or monthly then a turn doesnt matter. I know it wont be implemented as it doesnt bring any money to the cash cow but lets just implement the important stuff like changing colours. No wonder lots of people think this site is going to the dogs!!

[agentcom]

I think because of some players limited knowledge due to lack of games etc, they have no clue how damaging a missed turn can be, example Speed Game 11364981, fairly even game, yellow misses a turn, gets his 5 deffered and hey presto game over. So please don't post your bull to say it doesnt matter as it does, if you want it to be a casual game make the turns weekly or monthly then a turn doesnt matter. I know it wont be implemented as it doesnt bring any money to the cash cow but lets just implement the important stuff like changing colours. No wonder lots of people think this site is going to the dogs!!

lol

cuz you would've been so much better off it yellow had received his 5 troops the turn before ... rrriiiiigggghhhhtt.

For those of you that are wondering. At the point of yellow's missed turn:

red (hmsps) - 9 regions
green - 8 regions

vs.

blue - 10 regions
yellow - 13 regions and Oceania well protected.

So, yellow would have actually received 6 troops instead of 5 had he taken his turn, green wouldn't have been able to make a run at South America and the result would have been the same.

This is a great example of why the deferred troops system works. You can miss a turn and it doesn't change the outcome of the game too much, but it does give you a slight disadvantage. Some of the people on this site seem to think that a missed turn should equal an automatic loss, even in a case like this where the missing team has gained a significant lead.

This is one of the worst examples I've ever seen of someone trying to say that a game's outcomes was changed by deferred troops. Changed from what it would have been like if yellow didn't get troops at all? OK, yeah. But changed from what it would have been if yellow took his turn? Absolutely not.

[ogro]

Concise description:

Round missed, troops missed.
In my opinion, player that missed his turn, should miss the troops corresponding to that round.
It is not fair that someone come back to the game after miss one or several of his turns and play with a bunch of new troops, that weren’t in risk last round.

Specifics/Details:

• Just not to save troops for later

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:

• Game will be more equitable.
  There will be one more reason for not to miss rounds.

[chapcrap]

This won't happen. Still.

[agentcom]

MOVED to rejected and MERGED with a lengthy post on the matter.

Unfortunately our MERGING technology sorts all posts by timestamp. Therefore, there are actually a couple conversations going on at this point. Please refer to the title of a given post to see which is which. This is what happens when the mods in the suggestions forum don't catch parallel conversations happening at the same time. Our apologies.

[ogro]

I think we are talking about two different topics here.
First, there is the fact of the real need of people to be allowed to miss turn for several legal reasons.
In my opinion there is no problem here.

The second point is that those who miss a turn, come back with a bunch of new troops that were not in risk, as were the troops of the others. That is not fair.

If miss a turn, come back to the game, but not with defferred troops.

[agentcom]

I'm glad we've had more discussion on this point, as many users haven't seen all the reasoning behind how the rules stand now. If you'd like to do more reading on the subject, see viewtopic.php?f=471&t=136056. That's where this thread will be in a couple days, but since there's some developed discussion here, I'll let it run for a tad longer.

[agentcom]

Additionally, I have STICKIED a couple of the more common rejected suggestions for ease of both moderators and users.

[Robert The Red]

I think we are talking about two different topics here.
First, there is the fact of the real need of people to be allowed to miss turn for several legal reasons.
In my opinion there is no problem here.

The second point is that those who miss a turn, come back with a bunch of new troops that were not in risk, as were the troops of the others. That is not fair.

If miss a turn, come back to the game, but not with defferred troops.

Agreed, it is true we are all likely to miss a turn a some point for whatever reason, but if we knew the troops would not be defered we would make a lot more effort to take our turn. it can only have a positive effect on the game, and i dont believe it would remove the casual nature of the game, plus it would stop everone moaning about it on this forum. wether anyone gains an advantage or not by missing a turn is a mute point. what we need with the rule change is that players will be encouraged to take their turns and help keep the continuity of the play.

[darth emperor]

First of all, thanks to agentcom to give us the post where it was discussed the missing turn, after reading it all (well not all, since the start of the current) to see if there was a good reason to remove defferred troops, I found that NONE of them were valid, and that 95% of the reasons of why they are invalid, are explained in the post that I made two pages ago.

Second, I wasn't planning to post in this thread anymore, because I don't find any point to it, as the admin himself said that it wasn't going to change, because the OP only read what he wants, and because most of people who wrote here are against defferred troops.

But based on the lasts posts, and things written in the main topic, I want to add 3 little things that are not touched here, or are touched briefly. So after this post, in this 3 pages you'll have a good summary, of 31 full pages. All that has been discussed in the main topic is summarized here, so you won't find anything new there, that is not already here. So let's go to the 3 main points.

First point ->People are saying that missing turn is getting and advantage. So I'll be glad to play anyone 100 games, with thecondition that everytime you lose 2 of 3 turns. I'm sure that out of 100 you'll win only 5, and I still think that 5 is a big number. (Btw Robert the Red, I'm still waiting for your reply of a team game where you and your partner will miss turns)

Second point ->

The second point is that those who miss a turn, come back with a bunch of new troops that were not in risk, as were the troops of the others. That is not fair.

This was quite mentioned in the main thread (well, practically Queen Herpes was practically the one who mentioned, but she post it too many times)
And ogro, this statement is incorrent in two ways:
1- This are not new troops, this are old, because it was supposed to be in the last round. I get your point that they are new in the board, but understand that this aren't new because you already knew of them.
Well this point is a tecnicallity, so it doesn't matter much, the important point is the next one
2- This is completly wrong, not only they are on risk, but this troops are the ones with the biggest risk. Because if your deploy gets down you'll loose this troops. Example: In classic map, you have 12 regions and Oceania bonus, that means that at the start of your turn, you would 3+2+1=6 troops. Let's say that you decide to miss a turn to "protect" this 6 troops. Now someone, breaks you Oceania, that means that instead of 12 troops that you would have had (6 in two turns) you'll only get half. You lost 6 troops, and they didn't get a chance to defend themselves with the dices, therefore the troops that weren't at risk is not yours but of your opponent, who could get his objective easily.

Third and last point ->

Agreed, it is true we are all likely to miss a turn a some point for whatever reason, but if we knew the troops would not be defered we would make a lot more effort to take our turn. it can only have a positive effect on the game, and i dont believe it would remove the casual nature of the game, plus it would stop everone moaning about it on this forum. wether anyone gains an advantage or not by missing a turn is a mute point. what we need with the rule change is that players will be encouraged to take their turns and help keep the continuity of the play.

Well, I won't mention that your premise of getting rid of defferred troops is that were used for gaining advantage (but, of course by saying that I won't mention, I mentioned )
Well, it's only 30 page the main thread, I won't call that "everyone moaning". But is true that everyone is moaning in this forum, but about the dice.
People ussually (people who has a little of experience in this page) has babysitters, people change mobile numbers with people of the same country in case of emergency, there are also people who has 2-3 permanent babysitters, in different time zones of the world, so they can check if there's only few hours they can take turns, the attedance in average is 98%. Practically are the new users, news users are the ones to miss turns, the most experienced ones ussually don't miss turn, because they already put effort.
But let's get back on topic, as I was saying the third point is:
How do you know that? How can you be sure, that it will only have positive outcome apart from "I believe"? Maybe people will say "I missed a turn, so there's no way I can recover my position..." (as deffered troops helps you to try to recover your previous position. Because as many said, if you miss a turn is a very big punishment that can cost you the game, and if you don't have deffered troops that is even bigger). "Well, as I can't recover I'll just miss my turns till I get out of the game". So you'll be waiting for an opponent who decides to miss 3 turns, or even worst "as I already don't have any chance because of missing a turn without deffered troops, I'll suicide and make the game worst to everyone".... so here taking out the deffered troops, you are discouraing to people who miss their turn to come back at the game. And that's not positive.

Also, let's take a final example of why missing turns is a hard punishment to the one who misses the turn
Game 11351494. This game, was red's victory, who would have win in one turn. But what happen? red missed a turn by mistake. And green took advantage of that missed turn. In point of fact, if red hadn't had the deffered troops, it would have been green's victory. So yes, a game that was practically winned, was going to be lost if red didn't had deffered troops, would have been lost (also, if red took her turn she would have had 20 troops, but she only got 9 deffered troops). But now, green and red are practically fighiting each other and we don't know who will win. But it was a red sure victory, that without deffered troops would have become a green sure victory (just missing one turn). So I think that red got a very hard punishment for losing one turn.

And with this post, we take a full sumarize of 30 pages, and it's a post longer than expected, sorry about that. If you have read all thank you very much, and even if you tried also thanks (except the OP, who won't try it ). Jokes asides, I hope this will help to conclude this subject (which I'm sure it won't), or atleast that they try to get new points, and no again and again with the same ones that are already explained very well by dozens of users (also won't happen, but one can dream )

[Teflon Kris]

Is there still a loophole where you start a manual freestyle 1 vs 1 game on City Mogul and miss the deployment round in order to go first in the second round ?

General freestyle loophole:

Miss a turn, then go first and get deferred troops as well - very rude - will the loophole ever be closed?

It could just be set that the player missing is counted as the last person to have a turn and therefore locked out (they did have it but missed)?


In general, could deferred troops be limited - e.g. only the basic 3, or maybe just 2 (no bonuses etc)?

[Robert The Red]

People ussually (people who has a little of experience in this page) has babysitters, people change mobile numbers with people of the same country in case of emergency, there are also people who has 2-3 permanent babysitters, in different time zones of the world, so they can check if there's only few hours they can take turns, the attedance in average is 98%. Practically are the new users, news users are the ones to miss turns, the most experienced ones ussually don't miss turn, because they already put effort.

Newbies to this club do not i believe have a host of sitters they can call on and if what you say in your quote above is true, that experienced players dont miss turns then i struggle to understand why you are so against the removal of defered troops. Any encouragement we can give newbies or for that matter experienced players to make more effort to take their turns has to to be positive. and if i was in a winning position in a game i certainly would not miss the turn at the very least i would have someone sit my turn. There is no need for defered troops on missed turns, defered troops do nothing to enhance the game. At very least i would suggest a trial with the rule change or add it as a game option under setting and lets see how popular it is.

[agentcom]

First of all, thanks to agentcom to give us the post where it was discussed the missing turn, after reading it all (well not all, since the start of the current) to see if there was a good reason to remove defferred troops, I found that NONE of them were valid, and that 95% of the reasons of why they are invalid, are explained in the post that I made two pages ago.

Second, I wasn't planning to post in this thread anymore, because I don't find any point to it, as the admin himself said that it wasn't going to change, because the OP only read what he wants, and because most of people who wrote here are against defferred troops.

But based on the lasts posts, and things written in the main topic, I want to add 3 little things that are not touched here, or are touched briefly. So after this post, in this 3 pages you'll have a good summary, of 31 full pages. All that has been discussed in the main topic is summarized here, so you won't find anything new there, that is not already here. So let's go to the 3 main points.

First point ->People are saying that missing turn is getting and advantage. So I'll be glad to play anyone 100 games, with thecondition that everytime you lose 2 of 3 turns. I'm sure that out of 100 you'll win only 5, and I still think that 5 is a big number. (Btw Robert the Red, I'm still waiting for your reply of a team game where you and your partner will miss turns)

Second point ->

The second point is that those who miss a turn, come back with a bunch of new troops that were not in risk, as were the troops of the others. That is not fair.

This was quite mentioned in the main thread (well, practically Queen Herpes was practically the one who mentioned, but she post it too many times)
And ogro, this statement is incorrent in two ways:
1- This are not new troops, this are old, because it was supposed to be in the last round. I get your point that they are new in the board, but understand that this aren't new because you already knew of them.
Well this point is a tecnicallity, so it doesn't matter much, the important point is the next one
2- This is completly wrong, not only they are on risk, but this troops are the ones with the biggest risk. Because if your deploy gets down you'll loose this troops. Example: In classic map, you have 12 regions and Oceania bonus, that means that at the start of your turn, you would 3+2+1=6 troops. Let's say that you decide to miss a turn to "protect" this 6 troops. Now someone, breaks you Oceania, that means that instead of 12 troops that you would have had (6 in two turns) you'll only get half. You lost 6 troops, and they didn't get a chance to defend themselves with the dices, therefore the troops that weren't at risk is not yours but of your opponent, who could get his objective easily.

Third and last point ->

Agreed, it is true we are all likely to miss a turn a some point for whatever reason, but if we knew the troops would not be defered we would make a lot more effort to take our turn. it can only have a positive effect on the game, and i dont believe it would remove the casual nature of the game, plus it would stop everone moaning about it on this forum. wether anyone gains an advantage or not by missing a turn is a mute point. what we need with the rule change is that players will be encouraged to take their turns and help keep the continuity of the play.

Well, I won't mention that your premise of getting rid of defferred troops is that were used for gaining advantage (but, of course by saying that I won't mention, I mentioned )
Well, it's only 30 page the main thread, I won't call that "everyone moaning". But is true that everyone is moaning in this forum, but about the dice.
People ussually (people who has a little of experience in this page) has babysitters, people change mobile numbers with people of the same country in case of emergency, there are also people who has 2-3 permanent babysitters, in different time zones of the world, so they can check if there's only few hours they can take turns, the attedance in average is 98%. Practically are the new users, news users are the ones to miss turns, the most experienced ones ussually don't miss turn, because they already put effort.
But let's get back on topic, as I was saying the third point is:
How do you know that? How can you be sure, that it will only have positive outcome apart from "I believe"? Maybe people will say "I missed a turn, so there's no way I can recover my position..." (as deffered troops helps you to try to recover your previous position. Because as many said, if you miss a turn is a very big punishment that can cost you the game, and if you don't have deffered troops that is even bigger). "Well, as I can't recover I'll just miss my turns till I get out of the game". So you'll be waiting for an opponent who decides to miss 3 turns, or even worst "as I already don't have any chance because of missing a turn without deffered troops, I'll suicide and make the game worst to everyone".... so here taking out the deffered troops, you are discouraing to people who miss their turn to come back at the game. And that's not positive.

Also, let's take a final example of why missing turns is a hard punishment to the one who misses the turn
Game 11351494. This game, was red's victory, who would have win in one turn. But what happen? red missed a turn by mistake. And green took advantage of that missed turn. In point of fact, if red hadn't had the deffered troops, it would have been green's victory. So yes, a game that was practically winned, was going to be lost if red didn't had deffered troops, would have been lost (also, if red took her turn she would have had 20 troops, but she only got 9 deffered troops). But now, green and red are practically fighiting each other and we don't know who will win. But it was a red sure victory, that without deffered troops would have become a green sure victory (just missing one turn). So I think that red got a very hard punishment for losing one turn.

And with this post, we take a full sumarize of 30 pages, and it's a post longer than expected, sorry about that. If you have read all thank you very much, and even if you tried also thanks (except the OP, who won't try it ). Jokes asides, I hope this will help to conclude this subject (which I'm sure it won't), or atleast that they try to get new points, and no again and again with the same ones that are already explained very well by dozens of users (also won't happen, but one can dream )

Darth, I believe this is a good summary of the 30 pages of the debate so far. I have now added 3 more by MERGING this topic with the one I linked to before.