Interesting Mafia! GAME OVER ~ MAFIA WINS ~

[Victor Sullivan]

I think spiesr explained my sentiments to a 't'. We were kind of screwed from the get go with the claim set-up, and having 4 mafia is rather large for such a set-up.

-Sully

[MoB Deadly]

Yeah Zimmah and victor swapping roles was a very good strat, at that point in my head I was thinking crap, these masons are overpowered. And he did set you up very well making you think he tracked you. But both of their suspicion of Andy messed things up a little.

[MoB Deadly]

Okay the reason I made 3 cops was that. If a cop was forced to claim D1.. The other cop would need to counter claim. So I made another one so that
1) If one naive dies, that clues into the setup
2) The real cop isnt automatically dead by the mafia. Without a tracker or watcher I needed to make it tougher for the mafia which cop to kill
3) I had another reason but forgot.

[strike wolf]

Setup:
Cop
Naive Cop
Naive Cop

Doctor
Naive Doctor

Vigilante (2 shots)
Naive Vigilante

Mason Leader (Can recruit Naives, no death on trying to recruit mafia)
Mason


Godfather (immune to detecion)
Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon
Roleblocker


Notes:
This game certainly did not play out as I expected. I expected a counter claim first day, from almost every scenario except a mason or mafia claim. If Cop claim, I thought chaos would ensue, and I expected a mislynch or 2. If Doc claim, definitely expected a mislynch and possibly vigi kill. If vigi claim, I expected the 2-shot part make it reputable and maybe go for a no lynch, but the mafia would not know who to kill.

Vigi did not shoot once, which was kind of unexpected. I really thought strike was going to shoot dazza at some point.

The Masons got a tough break this game and didnt get a single successful recruit. Their role PM stated they could recruit "powerless townies", it did not say VTs. They had pretty good odds, statistically, to get someone naive randomly, then I think it would of all "clicked", but it never happened . A mix of good recruits and failed recruits could in essence almost turn them into another cop, since they know they are either power role or mafia. I expected them to get one of the naive cops, I thought they would announce I think I am naive, and the masons try to recruit them, but it just didnt work out.

BG was right again, you've got a good nose for the mafia, I dunno how you do it so well. However, you were right for the wrong reasons (except for the fake claim). You were indeed naive (I thought that would cross your mind but it didn't), and the GF was not bulletproof in this game so don't always assume it is

----
Mafia were not given any fake claims.

Dazza played the town really well with his fake claim.
I was really surprised with spiesr's claim, I really liked it but it was a little ridiculous.

Gilligan submarined pretty well
---


This game was okay but not great in my opinion. If I could redo it I would make a mafia goon into another town role. The mafia won too easily despite 2 really early claims. The town were too confused to guess the setup. I believe if they had all day today to debate, I think they could have figured most of it out. especially with IB and Gilligans fake claims. I think I was nervous about the Masons would get too strong had their recruits been successful. Maybe keep the same amount of mafia, but hint better to the masons they should be looking for powerless townies but not necessarily VTs



What did you guys think about the whole thing?

show: Role PMs

show: Night 1 Actions

show: Night 2 Actions

show: Night 3 Actions

show: Night 4 Actions

4 mafia... with potential of massive counterclaims leading to town lynches.

You don't know how close I was to killing Dazza at three different points. He only got through night 1 because I thought the cop would investigate him.

[zimmah]

Shit settup is shit.

1. edocsil - Town Doctor - Killed Night 1
2. thehippo8 - Town Naive Doctor - Lynched Day 2
3. Leehar - Town Naive Cop - Killed Night 2
4. spiesr - Mafia Goon - Lynched Day 3
5. AndyDufresne - Town Cop - Killed Night 3
6. soundman - Town Naive Cop - Lynched Day 4
7. BGtheBrain - Town Naive Vigilante - Killed Night 4

8. Victor Sullivan - Town Mason Leader - Endgamed.
9. zimmah - Town Mason - Endgamed.
10. Strike Wolf - Town Vigilante - Endgamed.

3 cops in a 13 man game is fucking retarded. Especially 2 naive cops. Then naive docs as well? f*ck, town was never going to win here.

i kind of agree, there were a lot of mislynches because we couldn't tell how much persons there was of every role. i felt like everyone was claiming doc or cop and every time we lynched someone due to a counterclaim we seemed to pick the wrong one.

also, i didn't know we could just recruit naives. if i knew that, we could have tried recruiting some naive claims, but since i thought naives would fail anyway i assumed it wouldn't give us any information at all.

the setup was way too confusing for town and was designed to make several mislynches.

i mean the main reason we failed is because of the triple cop and double doc. since both other cops (naive and normal) were dead, it was kind of weird to hear yet another cop claim. it would probably be better for him to claim VT and then sully would recruit him (succesfully) but we didn't know that at that point. and noone would ever expect 3 cops to be in the game. especially because every other role had 2, so the '2 of each' was quite obvious.

the plan to have 3 cops massively backfired.

[strike wolf]

A few things.

Luck plays a big factor. We were ecstatic when our first night kill was Edocil and he turned out to be town dr. That just set Hippo up for the lynch due to his claim.

We thought we struck gold when we realized we blocked (or so we thought) Brain. I can see only imagine what Wolf Strike was thinking and how he figured it out.

The turning point of the game, at least in my eyes, was not following through on Dazza. I really beleived we were sunk and the noose was slowly tightening.

Sully and Zimmah were on one side and Wolf and Brain on the other. I really beleived the mass claim would do us in.
Not fully understanding who could be mason recruited didnt hurt as well.

When Soundman claimed cop and Zimmah jumped on him I was like YES!!! Thank you Zimmah,

Finally what really did in the Town was people claiming to early. We were able to pick you off because you kept telling us who you were.

GG everyone.

Claiming is semi-necessary and with this game a lot of potential for fake counter claims. I never expected an extra naive cop and Zimmah seemed so adamant that they could only recruit Vanilla Townies that any thoughts that they could have recruited naives was pushed to the back ground. What did I figure out exactly?

[zimmah]

A few things.

Luck plays a big factor. We were ecstatic when our first night kill was Edocil and he turned out to be town dr. That just set Hippo up for the lynch due to his claim.

We thought we struck gold when we realized we blocked (or so we thought) Brain. I can see only imagine what Wolf Strike was thinking and how he figured it out.

The turning point of the game, at least in my eyes, was not following through on Dazza. I really beleived we were sunk and the noose was slowly tightening.

Sully and Zimmah were on one side and Wolf and Brain on the other. I really beleived the mass claim would do us in.
Not fully understanding who could be mason recruited didnt hurt as well.

When Soundman claimed cop and Zimmah jumped on him I was like YES!!! Thank you Zimmah,

Finally what really did in the Town was people claiming to early. We were able to pick you off because you kept telling us who you were.

GG everyone.

Claiming is semi-necessary and with this game a lot of potential for fake counter claims. I never expected an extra naive cop and Zimmah seemed so adamant that they could only recruit Vanilla Townies that any thoughts that they could have recruited naives was pushed to the back ground. What did I figure out exactly?

i must have misunderstood the role pm. but i was getting really frustrated that there were so many double roles in the game because i didn't know we could recruit the naives and it seemed like everyone had a role (naive or real) and that was making me quite sad.

[MoB Deadly]

Yeah I think I relied too much on the vigis in the setup. I expected both of them to shoot. One to realize he was naive and declare it, and get recruited instantly by masons.

[MoB Deadly]

Yeah Zimmah, I was careful to write powerless townies and not VTs, but that wasn't enough. I didn't want to specifically say you can recruit naives and potentially have the mystery of it blown away, but its clear I should have been somewhere in between both extremes. And made the game larger to compensate for mislynches.

[MoB Deadly]

IB is right though, if this game made it to day 5, it was over for the mafia. Masons tried to recruit IB who claimed vanilla and would have been lynched instantly. "Too many cops" theory would have caught up to dazza by then, and Gilli already claimed vanilla as well, so all the masons had to do was attempt to recruit him as well.

[strike wolf]

The 3rd cop threw everything off too. With two known cops, two masons, two vigs (as I knew it), and two docs. Each with a naive type role and Zimmah claiming to only be able to recruit Vanillas (Meaning at least 1 mafia probably 2), I really thought that it was 2 of every role with 3 mafia. If I had even thought we were at end game I would have killed Dazza sooner but I didn't think we were at that point.

Thought processes:

Night 1: Thought the Cop would attempt an investigation on Dazza. Didn't kill.
Night 2: The hippo lynch threw me off and I decided not to kill.
Night 3: I laid back to test if BG's kill would fail two nights in a row.
Night 4: Thrown off by the Soundman lynch. Didn't think we were at KILO (Kill or Lose)

THe problem with Vigs is it's also easy to miskill.

[MoB Deadly]

Yeah I figured thats why you didnt kill on N4. You didnt think you would wake up to a game over.

[MoB Deadly]

And Mafia won my first modded game as well, Power Mafia, even with an arson lynch D1. Maybe I need to take whatever setup I think is perfect, and boost it by 1-2 more townsfolk.

[thehippo8]

To be fair to the townies, I think my inex-erience on day one didn't help. I was too chatty and not conciliatary enough. I learned big this game!!

[soundman]

Soundman kind of screwed the town over when he claimed for no reason and did a really bad job of explaining the situation. Accordingly, his is posthumously awarded "Hero of the Mafia."

Did you even read the thread?? Gilligan and I were the only ones not to have claimed and we were asked to claim. Thus I did and figured I'd be believe because what mafia would claim a duplicate role? Unfortunately the town thought I had skimmed/forgotten that there was a naive cop already dead and had thus messed up my fake claim.

[spiesr]

IB is right though, if this game made it to day 5, it was over for the mafia. Masons tried to recruit IB who claimed vanilla and would have been lynched instantly. "Too many cops" theory would have caught up to dazza by then, and Gilli already claimed vanilla as well, so all the masons had to do was attempt to recruit him as well.

True, the mafia was on the verge of losing him Dazza had been lynched. I personally attribute this more to screw ups on the mafia's part themselves than anything else. Gilligian scumarinered his way through the game and then he and IronButterfly boxed themselves into a corner when they decided to claim vanilla townies at the end. That claim worked to get them through the day, but it left them screwed if the game continued. As for Dazza, his predicament was largely my fault. If I hadn't started the case against him on Day 1 he wouldn't have been stuck with the increasingly unbelievable Deputy claim. The claim was a good attempt on Day 1 when we didn't know anything about the setup, can't blame him for that, but as time went on and more of the setup was revealed it became obvious that that claim really just didn't fit in. So yeah, I screwed up there. If I hadn't brought the case in the first place Day would have still likely ended in the same no lynch. I don't really know what I was thinking there, I guess I hoped that me having created a case against him on Day 1 would buy 1 of us some town cred if the other died at any point. (Didn't exactly work out.)
If Gilligan and IronButterfly had been on the ball, and I hadn't made poor tactical moves on Day 1 then this game the town wouldn't have had chance with the setup. Basically the setup, and some luck with the town not figuring out key details, gave the game to a mafia faction that probably didn't deserve the win.

Finally what really did in the Town was people claiming to early. We were able to pick you off because you kept telling us who you were.

I have to disagree with this sentiment. In a good deal of games that I played in recently that ended in town victories the endgame more or less played out as follows. The vast majority of surviving townies have claimed by this point. The last couple of Mafia are unclaimed with maybe one or townies not yet claimed. The town uses the network of claims to determine the the mafia are the odd ones out. The mafia are lynched over the next couple of days with little difficulty. The townspeople claiming early and the scum staying unclaimed are what wins the game for town. The scum are averse to claiming as maintaining fake claims over a long period in a non/low vanilla game becomes difficult. If a mafia can maintain such a claim it becomes a huge asset to the scum. However, with the risk such a course of action presents few mafia dare attempt it unless forced to claim.

Anyhow Mob, overall I can say that if the masons had succeeded in recruiting a Naive player then things would have played out very differently. Also, the third cop was a bad idea. The setup otherwise presented an illusion of a pattern, and then that role comes and screws it up. I think it could have been improved somewhat balance wise if that role had been converted to a naive version of some weak power role and another player been added to serve as it's partner. One aspect of the setup that played against the mafia (or should have at least) was that the setup makes it rather difficult to make fake-claims. If the scum makes their fakeclaim before the pattern is discovered then it may be believed for a while, but once the pattern is discovered it likely won't hold up long. Fake-claiming after the pattern is discovered also presents difficulties, as at that point a mass claim is inevitable, so anyone without a partner we quickly be a target. The scum can try to circumvent this by claiming in pairs. That causes 2 scum members to basically have to ride on a single fake-claim. Town can then respond by confirming one member of each pair, by lynch of the presumed naive one or otherwise.

[Leehar]

I think everyone who jumped on soundman was at fault. He was the more believable target compared to the back-up cop, and It's a pity I wasn't around to try and head it off and died so early. Tho honestly I wasn't even sure about Naive's so I probably would never have realized it and just confused everyone if I stuck around!

[AndyDufresne]

If only I didn't die when I did...I had a good read on who was scummy! I was well into piecing together what was "interesting" about this game, and then died.


--Andy

[zimmah]

If only I didn't die when I did...I had a good read on who was scummy! I was well into piecing together what was "interesting" about this game, and then died.


--Andy

that didn't help too. i agree.

even tho i thought you was scummy instead of the other person (i got you and the scum mixed up) but i would have figured out your true alignment soon enough anyway if you didn't get nightkilled.