Philadelphia [Quenched]

[carlpgoodrich]

I am fine with the toll as it is. I have a personal affection to gameplay with negative bonuses because they are so interesting and are so rarely used. I also think the comedic aspect of losing troops just for being in NJ is funny . But you might be right, the toll does work well in this map and unless someone else brings it up again I shall rest my case.

[Z-Rambo]

An idea to help with the South Philly start out bonus....How about taking the southern part of Penn's Landing and turning it into Society Hill and trim part of the Naval Yard and turn it into the Sports Complex? It gives a couple more territories and lowers the percentages. Also, in SW Philly take part of the Airport and create Pennrose and/or Hog Island.

[RedBaron0]

I could add 2 territories, which would give South Philly 5 territories and a total of 44, I don't want to get to 45 total that are distributed which is bad for 1v1 games which would give 15 territories to each player, which gives an unfair advantage to the starting player.

[RedBaron0]

Click image to enlarge.

45 territories - 44 + 1 killer neutral
Added 2 territories to South Philly, Gray's Ferry and the Sport's Complex.
I did keep Society Hill in mind, and replaced Washington Square. Society Hill is definitely more Center City than South Philly anyways.
Added Underdog bonus explanation.
Moved my signature down into the corner next to the date. Mostly to possibly use that space for something graphical later on.
Bonus values adjusted accordingly, South Philly up to 4, the bonus stats are almost exactly the same as Northern Liberties.

I'm open to your suggestions!

I've been toying with the idea of added 2 more territories (47 total - 46 + 1 killer neutral) and starting the bridges as neutrals. Figure say 2, maybe 3 neutral armies, just to give a little more starting security to bonuses at the start of the game from someone who lands on any of the bridges with the initial drop. I think 1 in SW Philly between the airport and Elmwood that shouldn't affect the bonus value, and another territory built from part of Strawberry Mansion, and that would bump Northern Liberties up to a bonus of 5.

[isaiah40]

I've been toying with the idea of added 2 more territories (47 total - 46 + 1 killer neutral) and starting the bridges as neutrals. Figure say 2, maybe 3 neutral armies, just to give a little more starting security to bonuses at the start of the game from someone who lands on any of the bridges with the initial drop. I think 1 in SW Philly between the airport and Elmwood that shouldn't affect the bonus value, and another territory built from part of Strawberry Mansion, and that would bump Northern Liberties up to a bonus of 5.

I say do it as long as there is room which I'm sure there is plenty of. I would like to see 3 neutrals on those bridge IMHO. Other than that this is really looking good!

[MarshalNey]

I've been toying with the idea of added 2 more territories (47 total - 46 + 1 killer neutral) and starting the bridges as neutrals. Figure say 2, maybe 3 neutral armies, just to give a little more starting security to bonuses at the start of the game from someone who lands on any of the bridges with the initial drop. I think 1 in SW Philly between the airport and Elmwood that shouldn't affect the bonus value, and another territory built from part of Strawberry Mansion, and that would bump Northern Liberties up to a bonus of 5.

I say do it as long as there is room which I'm sure there is plenty of. I would like to see 3 neutrals on those bridge IMHO. Other than that this is really looking good!

I also concur with this. In fact, looking at everything else, the neutrals on the bridges is my only going concern for the gameplay.

Bonus values for the regions - good!
Very low chances of getting bonuses on the drop - mostly yes (except for the bridges, which are still okay)
Region connections/impassibles - good. The 'chunks' of territory separated by bottleneck regions makes for fine Classic gameplay. The NJ toll, looking at the legend alone, leads me to believe that the Bridges are easy to attack into, but hard to attack out of (must take a killer neutral 4 before attacking out). Is this correct?
Underdog bonus - brilliant. Love it, and although the bonus for 1 region looks a bit exploitable, it is of course a two-edged sword. It opens up a whole new realm of strategy, especially in team games as you say.

This might be ready for a sticky very soon.

Marshal Ney

[RedBaron0]

I also concur with this. In fact, looking at everything else, the neutrals on the bridges is my only going concern for the gameplay.

Bonus values for the regions - good!
Very low chances of getting bonuses on the drop - mostly yes (except for the bridges, which are still okay)
Region connections/impassibles - good. The 'chunks' of territory separated by bottleneck regions makes for fine Classic gameplay. The NJ toll, looking at the legend alone, leads me to believe that the Bridges are easy to attack into, but hard to attack out of (must take a killer neutral 4 before attacking out). Is this correct?
Underdog bonus - brilliant. Love it, and although the bonus for 1 region looks a bit exploitable, it is of course a two-edged sword. It opens up a whole new realm of strategy, especially in team games as you say.

This might be ready for a sticky very soon.

Marshal Ney

Update coming shortly that should address any issue you've got Marshal.

The previous self-suggestion I've put in and should eliminate any of the Bridge bonus drop issues, as they'll all start with 3 neutral.
The tolls work just as you say. Attack the bridge from any of the connecting territories, (Tacony, Port Richmond, Independence Hall, or Penn's Landing) and from those bridges you can attack the tolls. (Killer neutral 4) From the toll you can attack any of the other 3 bridges. (excludes the one you just attacked from) I've reworded the instructions there to be clearer. I might have to remove the "Exit Only" part of the sign to prevent confusion, that's there to have a nicer graphical appeal just like a highway road sign.

Click image to enlarge.

Gimme a few and I'll begetting this up here.

[RedBaron0]

Click image to enlarge.

2 territories added - Cobb's Creek and Boathouse Row.
Changed the airport to Hog's Island
Northern Liberties up to 5 bonus
SW Philly still 2, could be a debatable 3 bonus
Bridges start as neutral 3's territories split between players at 42.
47 total territories - 4 starting neutrals, 1 killer neutral
Bridge-toll explanation rewritten to be clearer

Hopefully that's all the concerns for gameplay, but I know how this works, I know I'm not done till the stamp comes down!

The starting neutrals of the bridges gives early game protection for bonuses, but the bridges still must be guarded at some point to hold bonuses, and also to prevent backdoor runs from players attempting kills.
The underdog bonus will certainly add new strategic thoughts; especially in team games, but those thoughts shouldn't override the necessity to win the game and unnecessarily cause build game scenarios. Max value of the underdog bonus currently gives a player with 1 remaining territory 7 armies to work with.(3 standard + 4 bonus) Teams may try to use this to their advantage to gain extra armies, but in the process weaken their own teammate. I can see an issue that opposing teams may not as aggressively go after 1 player for fear of the underdog bonus coming into play. Instead, I see teams looking to build bonuses, the bridge bonus especially since they start neutral, as well to gain control of bridges to have reign over the map to make kills when ready. The quads game might be the most concerning since all players will start with 5 territories, just 2 territories from the start of the underdog bonus at 3 territories. But that bonus is just 1 army, and may not be worth the early weakening of players on the same team, and still benefits the opposite team in my opinion. Should make for an interesting Beta test.

Don't screw it up.... bad dice, misdeploys, or misadvances will likely cost you a game you should have won even more so than normal with the unique underdog bonus!

[Victor Sullivan]

I agree with isaiah, this is looking very good! I'd argue that South Philly should be +3, though. 3 borders and 5 territories sounds exactly like Africa from Classic, and Africa is in the middle of everything

Another thing: I worry that Fox Chase will be a major chokepoint. Considering that it and the T-P bridge (and that would be covered partially by the New Jersey toll, too) are all you'd have to cover to hold a +5 bonus with Frankford and Great Northeast worries me a lot. Solutions can include reducing Northeast's bonus to +2 and opening up Frankford more, such as a connection between Juniata and Wissinoming.

-Sully

[isaiah40]

I agree with isaiah, this is looking very good! I'd argue that South Philly should be +3, though. 3 borders and 5 territories sounds exactly like Africa from Classic, and Africa is in the middle of everything

I wouldn't say exactly since you have to defend (if I remember correctly) against 5 territories. Here you only have 2 to defend against, so I think the +2 is good, though +3 would be bad either.

Another thing: I worry that Fox Chase will be a major chokepoint. Considering that it and the T-P bridge (and that would be covered partially by the New Jersey toll, too) are all you'd have to cover to hold a +5 bonus with Frankford and Great Northeast worries me a lot. Solutions can include reducing Northeast's bonus to +2 and opening up Frankford more, such as a connection between Juniata and Wissinoming.

I agree with Sully here. Personally I would lean towards adding in another connection between Bridesburg and Port Richmond. Though that may mean Northern Liberties value may have to change. But I think it can stay where it is.

[RedBaron0]

I think the solution that takes care of both things guys would be to take a territory out of the GNE and put it into Frankford and adding a connection between Frankford and Northern Liberties. This way the reverse is now true, GNE become a 2 bonus and Frankford a 3 bonus, and harder to defend the whole of NE Philly for a +5 bonus. I'll toss the numbers into the calculator and make sure it isn't too much of a stretch.... I get the feeling Frankford might end up as a +4 bonus then, in which case I might just move a second territory from GNE to Frankford and have GNE be a 4 territory +2 bonus.

That being said, I worry that the map is becoming a "start on the outside and work your way in" map where the "best" bonuses to hold are SW Philly, GNE, and Germantown, and difficult ones are in the center. Still may not be a major issue though, tell me what you guys think!

[MarshalNey]

SW Philly should stay at +2 I think- making it a +3 when compared with Germantown doesn't look right.

I think the solution that takes care of both things guys would be to take a territory out of the GNE and put it into Frankford and adding a connection between Frankford and Northern Liberties. This way the reverse is now true, GNE become a 2 bonus and Frankford a 3 bonus, and harder to defend the whole of NE Philly for a +5 bonus. I'll toss the numbers into the calculator and make sure it isn't too much of a stretch.... I get the feeling Frankford might end up as a +4 bonus then, in which case I might just move a second territory from GNE to Frankford and have GNE be a 4 territory +2 bonus.

Sully and Isaiah brought up a good points, and I think that adding a border region to Frankford is the best solution. If you add a connection between Wissinoming and Juniata, it shouldn't significantly impact Northern Liberties defenses.

Taking a region from the Great NE and moving it to Frankford also helps, but switching 2 regions I think would make the Great NE too much of an early-game buster for whomever steals it. At 4 regions, the Great NE is much easier to take in the 1st or 2nd round (say one gets 2 or 3 of the regions on the drop) and then hold for the rest of the game. It would become the focus of the map, much like Australia in Classic.

That being said, I worry that the map is becoming a "start on the outside and work your way in" map where the "best" bonuses to hold are SW Philly, GNE, and Germantown, and difficult ones are in the center. Still may not be a major issue though, tell me what you guys think!

Well, see above about the Great NE Other than that, I think that none of the bonuses are unrealistic to take or defend- except for Center City- so that different drops will offer different possibilities each game.

If you want to open the map up a bit more, you could reduce the Bridge neutrals to 2 and/or reduce the Tolls to killer neutral 2 or 3. I don't think that would make the Bridge bonus too easy to take- you'd still have to kill off 6 troops for a +2, and 'strand' an occupying troop for each.

In any case, this map looks close to wrapping up the gameplay. Sticky time.

Marshal Ney

[thegreekdog]

Sorry for the nitpicking, but it's "Palmyra" not "Palmayra."

Thanks.

TGD (excited Philadelphia resident!)

[RedBaron0]

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

I gotta roll for work, quick go over the changes:

Fixed Palmyra
Moved a territory from GNE to Frankford (Mayfair)
Frankford and South Philly at 3
Bridges to remain at 3 neutral
and tolls at a 4 killer nuetral
Moved the Ben Franklin Bridge up to connect to Spring Garden, more accurate connection and makes Center City a little easier to hold

Since South Philly and Frankford are virtually identical (5 territories, defend 3) I figured to make them the same, and with the neutral cover on the bridges I felt a bonus of 3 was more reasonable.

Gotta run, discuss!

[Victor Sullivan]

Looks, scrumptious! I think all the neutrals could be knocked down by 1. 2 a piece for the bridges, 3 for the toll.

[RedBaron0]

I could see that, right now it's 10 total neutral armies to get from 1 bridge to the next, and the 4 will show back up after a round has played out. 7 total is still good cover for early rounds, and isn't as much of a game changer later when going for kills. I'm liking the idea, anyone else prefer the neutral values as is? Otherwise I'll likely change the values to Vic's suggestion of 2 on the Bridges, and 3 for the toll.

[MarshalNey]

I could see that, right now it's 10 total neutral armies to get from 1 bridge to the next, and the 4 will show back up after a round has played out. 7 total is still good cover for early rounds, and isn't as much of a game changer later when going for kills. I'm liking the idea, anyone else prefer the neutral values as is? Otherwise I'll likely change the values to Vic's suggestion of 2 on the Bridges, and 3 for the toll.

Oh, so now it's Vic's suggestion? Hmph. Anway, I think it would be a good change to bump them all down by 1.

Any other gameplay issues? RB, are you feeling more comfortable about the map? I see no further issues on my end.

[RedBaron0]

I could see that, right now it's 10 total neutral armies to get from 1 bridge to the next, and the 4 will show back up after a round has played out. 7 total is still good cover for early rounds, and isn't as much of a game changer later when going for kills. I'm liking the idea, anyone else prefer the neutral values as is? Otherwise I'll likely change the values to Vic's suggestion of 2 on the Bridges, and 3 for the toll.

Oh, so now it's Vic's suggestion? Hmph. Anway, I think it would be a good change to bump them all down by 1.

Any other gameplay issues? RB, are you feeling more comfortable about the map? I see no further issues on my end.

His was just the most recent of the suggestions, trying to involve more community, ya know?

I'm good here, however, I fully encourage more input and suggestions!!!

Updated image with corrected neutral values: [edit] ugh, I forgot to fix the sign, I sees it, I'll get.

Click image to enlarge.

[isaiah40]

I'm fine with whatever way you want to go. It's not a deal breaker with me.

[MarshalNey]

Sent the puppy out in the last Surveyor's Bulletin; if they don't notice anything in the next few days, it's off to Graphics with ya'.

Marshal Ney

[shakeycat]

I see it's been mentioned over and over - but the bridges feel really pointless since they don't go anywhere. The bonus isn't worth fighting neutrals for.

If you aren't going to put New Jersey in (and I wish you would, and just call the map "Philidelphia and New Jersey"), then switch the inset with the title/bonus info. The big street sign can stay. It just flows better if the inset is right next to its original territory.

[RedBaron0]

The bridges do go somewhere, New Jersey. The spot for New Jersey is just on the sign. That can be debated as well, the killer neutral can be off the sign and marked as "New Jersey" although to be fair to New Jersey as a whole, I'd probably name it "South Jersey." The sign would likely remain in some for to explain the killer neutral for the South Jersey territory. The bridges are basically a eastern shortcut. The bonus for the bridges give a little extra incentive to attack and defend them.

Moving the inset shouldn't be a problem, more of a graphical thing, but does make sense. It could also open up some room to put the underdog bonus explanation closer to the legend, which makes more sense anyways.

[Victor Sullivan]

Oh, so now it's Vic's suggestion? Hmph.

On a non-emoticon note, I think we're ready to stroll on into Graphics (or strut, if you're feeling confident enough).

[shakeycat]

RedBaron - I didn't see that! I thought everything on the sign was meant as an example. I guess it'd be different with the in-game style numbers. As good as the sign looks, the highway shields may make more sense at the end of the bridges, then we'll know which one corresponds to where. Or if you double up on them, maybe put in a slightly transparent version at the end of the bridge indicating which one on the sign it points to.

[RedBaron0]

I did think the font I was using for the neutral numbers was the right one, it's Tahoma, correct? I think I might have it bolded though... I can put those highway shields by the correct bridges.(I76: Walt Whitman; I676: Ben Franklin; US30:Betsy Ross; PA73: Tacony-Palmyra) Still that's more of a graphical thing.

There still might been some miscommunication to how the bridges/toll is meant to work. Each bridges location, marked with an army circle with a blue ring, assaults to the army circle on the green New Jersey Toll sign, as marked with an army circle with a red ring. This is the killer neutral. That spot in turn assaults ANY and all bridge locations.

On an update note, I've rearranged the title and inset as asked, it's feeling a bit cramped, but might work if I can get some more space. But it may just work exactly the way it was before better. Again more of a graphical debate, all gameplay aspects are the same. Any one else have any issues with gameplay?