C.C. Finals THOTA vs. KoRT [27-33] Kort WINS ! [FINAL]

[the.killing.44]

You've been just fine Bruce, as have a good amount of KORT. But there are a few in your clan that are particularly loud and obnoxious. i.e. Game 8055675 and Game 8055670 (suggest you follow TIME's recent decision in dealing with him before KORT is shunned by the entire clan community). Unfortunately most of us judge the demeanor of a clan by their loudest members. KORT's worst is just particularly detestable.

as my games are in example, I suppose the main your point was about me.
just to know, if exclude ratings gotten from TOFU members (for which I really dont care, as I dont care for the ones that lost any respect in my eyes), my the lowest gotten rating in any of columns was 3 stars, in more than one year of playing and more than 200 players who rated me. also, my average ratings in all columns is 5.

I think it shows enough how the other players see me, and how fair I am and likely to play with or versus someone. I dont know how many players you may find on the site which never got less than 3 stars in any column of rating system from more than 200 players who rated him/her and hold 5 star rating during one year (until TOFU comes to opposite side).

I hope you realize ratings truly mean jack shit, and the perception of the vast majority of established forum-goers goes pretty far.

[josko.ri]

I hope you realize ratings truly mean jack shit, and the perception of the vast majority of established forum-goers goes pretty far.

of course that to players with 4.6 ratings like you it means jack shit.
IMO ratings are indicator how many others respect you like person and like player.

[trapyoung]

I hope you realize ratings truly mean jack shit, and the perception of the vast majority of established forum-goers goes pretty far.

of course that to players with 4.6 ratings like you it means jack shit.
IMO ratings are indicator how many others respect you like person and like player.

Another fine example of How to Win Friends and Influence People. "Chapter 3: Always randomly attack strangers."

[cutebastard71]

You've been just fine Bruce, as have a good amount of KORT. But there are a few in your clan that are particularly loud and obnoxious. i.e. Game 8055675 and Game 8055670 (suggest you follow TIME's recent decision in dealing with him before KORT is shunned by the entire clan community). Unfortunately most of us judge the demeanor of a clan by their loudest members. KORT's worst is just particularly detestable.

as my games are in example, I suppose the main your point was about me.
just to know, if exclude ratings gotten from TOFU members (for which I really dont care, as I dont care for the ones that lost any respect in my eyes), my the lowest gotten rating in any of columns was 3 stars, in more than one year of playing and more than 200 players who rated me. also, my average ratings in all columns is 5.

I think it shows enough how the other players see me, and how fair I am and likely to play with or versus someone. I dont know how many players you may find on the site which never got less than 3 stars in any column of rating system from more than 200 players who rated him/her and hold 5 star rating during one year (until TOFU comes to opposite side).

I hope you realize ratings truly mean jack shit, and the perception of the vast majority of established forum-goers goes pretty far.

Why is one more relevant than the other ? Simply because some players visit forum and post a lot makes their opinion ... what ? And where is that "far" actually located ? In lalaland of nicknames used for playing games on an internet site ?
FYI, both are completely irrelevant IMO.

On a completely different subject. Without discussing whether or not josko.ri is obnoxious and loud (in a single game I played against him he was perfectly fine) I find it amusing that people point out to the games in which he (in)correctly discusses the games/strategy/etc as examples of him being obnoxious and/or loud and completely ignoring the fact that players who are not at all in the game waltz in with personal remarks (out of blue) which could be easily interpreted as a pathetic attempt of an insult. However that is perfectly fine, right ? Because I am guessing it is an acceptable sense of humor that those "established forum-goers" nurture and appreciate.

Respect for the sake of feeling good is useless (but that is again personal opinion and as such very biased). However if you can make money with it props (i.e. proper respect) to you

[niMic]

I'll drink to that.

[nikola_milicki]

I hope you realize ratings truly mean jack shit, and the perception of the vast majority of established forum-goers goes pretty far.

of course that to players with 4.6 ratings like you it means jack shit.
IMO ratings are indicator how many others respect you like person and like player.

Ratings are almost worthless for so many reasons, I wont waste my time on trying to write all of them here but I will ask u this: what exactly and how much have all those ppl, who played like 1 or 2 games with or against u, learned about u as a person or as a player, in such a short time and in games where all the chat u exchanged was gl and gg? I will help u answer that - jack shit. But on the other hand, ppl who played more games with or against ya, a clan challenge even, where theres so much more communication....

If everybody was obliged to leave ratings for every opponent/partner in every single game they played after following the game very closely and if everybody was completely fair and honest by doing so, then ratings would have some meaning.

And of course that to a player who has built himself an 'arrogant asshole' reputation, opinions (ratings) of ppl who never even talked to him mean ridiculously too much.

[the.killing.44]

You've been just fine Bruce, as have a good amount of KORT. But there are a few in your clan that are particularly loud and obnoxious. i.e. Game 8055675 and Game 8055670 (suggest you follow TIME's recent decision in dealing with him before KORT is shunned by the entire clan community). Unfortunately most of us judge the demeanor of a clan by their loudest members. KORT's worst is just particularly detestable.

as my games are in example, I suppose the main your point was about me.
just to know, if exclude ratings gotten from TOFU members (for which I really dont care, as I dont care for the ones that lost any respect in my eyes), my the lowest gotten rating in any of columns was 3 stars, in more than one year of playing and more than 200 players who rated me. also, my average ratings in all columns is 5.

I think it shows enough how the other players see me, and how fair I am and likely to play with or versus someone. I dont know how many players you may find on the site which never got less than 3 stars in any column of rating system from more than 200 players who rated him/her and hold 5 star rating during one year (until TOFU comes to opposite side).

I hope you realize ratings truly mean jack shit, and the perception of the vast majority of established forum-goers goes pretty far.

Why is one more relevant than the other ? Simply because some players visit forum and post a lot makes their opinion ... what ? And where is that "far" actually located ? In lalaland of nicknames used for playing games on an internet site ?
FYI, both are completely irrelevant IMO.

On a completely different subject. Without discussing whether or not josko.ri is obnoxious and loud (in a single game I played against him he was perfectly fine) I find it amusing that people point out to the games in which he (in)correctly discusses the games/strategy/etc as examples of him being obnoxious and/or loud and completely ignoring the fact that players who are not at all in the game waltz in with personal remarks (out of blue) which could be easily interpreted as a pathetic attempt of an insult. However that is perfectly fine, right ? Because I am guessing it is an acceptable sense of humor that those "established forum-goers" nurture and appreciate.

Respect for the sake of feeling good is useless (but that is again personal opinion and as such very biased). However if you can make money with it props (i.e. proper respect) to you

Can I just ask, do you remember a fredericofraga without looking your games together up?

[josko.ri]

of course, another one with low rating (4.7) comes and say the rating are almost worthless. why it do not wonder me?

I will ask u this: what exactly and how much have all those ppl, who played like 1 or 2 games with or against u, learned about u as a person or as a player, in such a short time and in games where all the chat u exchanged was gl and gg?

maybe you or the.killing.44, who both played 0 games vs me, learned more about me than these players?

it exists 5 players outside of KoRT who played 150+ games like my opponents and rated me with 5 stars. are 150 games enough to get feedback about some player?
also, I may bet on the site are at least 50 players who played at least 5 games vs or with me before TOFU clan war. isnt it weird that nobody of them ever mention my obnoxious characteristics in these 5+ games and give me rating less than 3 stars in any column?

and also what is worse? Game 8055675 speaking about things related to game (what was happened in that game several rounds before, documented by numbers and %), or mentioning someone's mother in negative context? comic boy even do not know if my mother is alive and speak such a things about her so maybe someone may manage with him instead of with me.

sorry all about offtopic, but I think I have right to clear my name with arguments (about ratings received), after Lubawski and several others tarnished it.

respect, cutebastard71, finally someone with completely argumented post

[Chariot of Fire]

If you seldom play public games then you're very unlikely to get a bad rating off someone. Therefore anyone who has a rating of 4.6-4.8 yet who plays in the public domain far more often than a 4.9 or 5.0 rated player is definitely no less fair, no less able and no less civil.

It also stands to reason that when you hand out 5 stars to everyone like an Italian general (for that is what clearly stands out when looking at how josko rates his opponents) then that is what you tend to get back in return. If we were to take ratings seriously then according to josko everyone should be a field marshall by now (or running for president). All of a sudden your little bubble burst when you received a handful of lower ratings for fair play and attitude and what was your response? To give the same back as you received. So your ratings are ruled by your heart and not your head.

Game 6720344 kind of says it all really.

If I have the same rating as you (4.9) and I'm an arrogant bastard, it just goes to show you can be too

[Lubawski]

sorry all about offtopic, but I think I have right to clear my name with arguments (about ratings received), after Lubawski and several others tarnished it.

To be fair, in games where I played against you, I thought you were a typical opponent. Respectful and polite as far as I can remember (I haven't gone back to look at those). In our war against you I didn't know you from anyone else. You didn't stick out as "an arrogant asshole" (which is what my now wife initially thought of me--she still does, but it's somehow endearing now).

Where I saw a change in you was in the TOFU challenge. I think it's fair to say that because you were attacked, you responded. I really don't know which came first or why. I don't think anyone was on the "right" side in that challenge, so I won't hold that against you. I do believe you've started the fight back up a few times there (this is not one of them). But again, I can understand that because you were attacked, and it can be hard to let that go.

What does strike me as a negative is your comments in this challenge (not the thread, but those two games I pointed out). In those games, you were not attacked prior to being unnecessarily rude. To belittle THOTA's gameplay in a game they won seems preposterous. Perhaps you are still very defensive because of the the TOFU challenge. I can understand that. But to project it on to your next opponent is something that you need to try to avoid.

I won't say this will be my last post in here (because I know myself better than that). But I hope it is my last post about this topic.

[elfish_lad]

To be fair...

I don't know you from a hole in the ground. Which is true for the vast majority of players here on CC. Except family. And hell, we know each other to the point of avoiding each other online as much as possible. Typical family I would guess. Nonetheless, even though this is neither your (EMPIRE) nor my (TOFU) thread I think yours was a damn fine post. I'm not even going to comment on the topic you replied to, other than to say "cheers... damn fine post."

There can be no doubt that I personally hope that THOTA (much despised by me heretofore on general principle rather than any personal experience) will win this War. There is a lot of personal feeling in that of course. But on a broader "CC experience scale" I do sincerely hope that the poster in question, to which you have responded, will learn to ease off in and out of games. But that is not for me to dictate I guess. To my clan mates? Much to the contrary of some folks popular belief, we are each free to express ourselves as we see fit without sanction, direction or compulsion. My kind of clan.

Cheers to both combatants as you approach round two.

Go THOTA.

E.

[lord voldemort]

Guys ratings mean everything....its the most accurate measure of ones ability and how a person is viewed by their peers

[Dako]

Guys ratings mean everything....its the most accurate measure of ones ability and how a person is viewed by their peers

Yes, it is as charming as unicorns are :D.

[Bruceswar]

Hey, good luck to both clans, this should be a great fight. Since THOTA have never lost a straight up clan war I can't pick against them here. I'd guess 35-25 for a final score.

Quoting this sooo dan can see he made a prediction..

[reptile]

looks intense so far, gl to both clans

[josko.ri]

If you seldom play public games then you're very unlikely to get a bad rating off someone. Therefore anyone who has a rating of 4.6-4.8 yet who plays in the public domain far more often than a 4.9 or 5.0 rated player is definitely no less fair, no less able and no less civil.

well, my 5 rating was from time when I played mostly public and tournament games, while 4.9 is from time when I played clan games. so dont see how this point is good.

It also stands to reason that when you hand out 5 stars to everyone like an Italian general (for that is what clearly stands out when looking at how josko rates his opponents) then that is what you tend to get back in return. If we were to take ratings seriously then according to josko everyone should be a field marshall by now (or running for president). All of a sudden your little bubble burst when you received a handful of lower ratings for fair play and attitude and what was your response? To give the same back as you received. So your ratings are ruled by your heart and not your head.

hmm, if you see number of players I rated and number of players who rated me, you will see that I rated much less people than the ones who rated me. the reason is that I didnt want to give bad ratings to someone who I meet in 1-2 games because that person may develop in his gameplay/attitude etc and bad ratings would stay forever if we dont meet again. so, if I wanted to give someone bad ratings, I chose not rate him/her until we play at least 5-10 games so my opinion could be better documented. from the other side, if someone deserved good rating with 1-2 games played vs me, I left it ASAP as it was very pleasure to play vs him/her so why not gift him/her with good rating, it may be changed if in later games he/she shows diferent.

Game 6720344 kind of says it all really.

Game 6606144 was BEFORE game you quoted. common sense says what is worse, the things I wrote in italy chat, or the things he wrote in arms race chat. also, when you mentioned him, he received 1 star rating by me(the only ever), but I am not rated by him, nor bad nor good. so your story that I give the same ratings which i receive falls down.

If I have the same rating as you (4.9) and I'm an arrogant bastard, it just goes to show you can be too

4.9 and 5.0 is big difference, you may count number of players with 4.9 and the ones with 5.0 so you will see what I mean. the fact I still dont have 5.0 after war vs TOFU says enough about TOFU not about me, because 200+ players before TOFU rated me with 5.0 average.
you had 4.9 before KoRT clan war, so also somebody else (who rated you less)thinks you have not the best fairplay/gameplay/attitude.

[sonicsteve]

quote waffle quote

I rate this rant as 1.8 out of 5.0

Or as my teachers might have put it, "It's your time you're wasting, josko - not ours"

[angola]

Give 'em hell KORT.

Oh, and ratings are no way to judge good players, but a good way to judge bad players. If that makes sense.

[comic boy]

Guys ratings mean everything....its the most accurate measure of ones ability and how a person is viewed by their peers

No the ratings are a guideline only , those who dont know me might find them valuable but my peers certainly wouldnt take any notice of them.

[Rodion]

sorry all about offtopic, but I think I have right to clear my name with arguments (about ratings received), after Lubawski and several others tarnished it.

To be fair, in games where I played against you, I thought you were a typical opponent. Respectful and polite as far as I can remember (I haven't gone back to look at those). In our war against you I didn't know you from anyone else. You didn't stick out as "an arrogant asshole" (which is what my now wife initially thought of me--she still does, but it's somehow endearing now).

Where I saw a change in you was in the TOFU challenge. I think it's fair to say that because you were attacked, you responded. I really don't know which came first or why. I don't think anyone was on the "right" side in that challenge, so I won't hold that against you. I do believe you've started the fight back up a few times there (this is not one of them). But again, I can understand that because you were attacked, and it can be hard to let that go.

What does strike me as a negative is your comments in this challenge (not the thread, but those two games I pointed out). In those games, you were not attacked prior to being unnecessarily rude. To belittle THOTA's gameplay in a game they won seems preposterous. Perhaps you are still very defensive because of the the TOFU challenge. I can understand that. But to project it on to your next opponent is something that you need to try to avoid.

I won't say this will be my last post in here (because I know myself better than that). But I hope it is my last post about this topic.

That was a pretty good overall post. I'd only like to comment on the Ireland game discussion. It should really be more about the form (Josko writing something people didn't want to read) than the merit (whether or not a mistake was made by THOTA), but I'll start from the merit.

First of all, no, I didn't see it snap by snap. Actually, the one time I saw it before it was over was when Bruce posted it as a win a little ahead of time ( ). That considered, it seems hard to judge the merit of that discussion. By reading Commander's response (on Ireland game chat), I believe he acknowledged the mistake (at least considering the Offaly "stack" of 5 - the bonus part is hard to interpret, as he pretty much said going for the bonus was bad but doing anything else was bad too: when you only have bad options, picking a bad one isn't really a mistake). Again, I'm not putting words in Commander's mouth, this is just how I interpreted his response.

Now, the form. I'm pretty much certain that what triggered Josko's response was this:

'2010-12-12 10:54:32 - khazalid: it's a pretty dice based map tbh".

I'm not going to ommit khazalid explained 13 seconds later that he was not taking a shot at Josko's performance. While I have on good authority that khazalid didn't try to take a shot at Josko, it is understandable that some people may be rubbed the wrong way by such a comment.

Now, the reason I'm writing this is because, while I would have taken a different path regarding the situation, I can understand Josko's feelings, which has pretty much been felt by everyone here to an extent during our CC experience. I am sure everyone here has played against an opponent that didn't quite play to perfection but still made a comment about luck on game chat. Yeah, it's revolting. When that happens to me, I usually wear a fake smile (which can't really be seen through the computer screen, but you can always try to imagine) and reply something like "indeed, luck has been on my side this game/today/lately". Some people call that elegant, but it doesn't make it any less fake. Well, in some parts of the globe people prefer the inconvenient but sincere approach. Picking the latter instead of the former doesn't make Josko a monster. Actually, ethically, that makes him the hero.

[angola]

Guys ratings mean everything....its the most accurate measure of ones ability and how a person is viewed by their peers

No the ratings are a guideline only , those who dont know me might find them valuable but my peers certainly wouldnt take any notice of them.

Agreed.

I never, ever leave ratings. Unless they are in my clan and I feel obligated or if someone is a fucking idiot, then I shred them.

I rarely leave high ratings for folks anymore, unless I really enjoyed playing with them or played against them a lot in a tournament.

Ratings are useless beyond belief.

[comic boy]

If you seldom play public games then you're very unlikely to get a bad rating off someone. Therefore anyone who has a rating of 4.6-4.8 yet who plays in the public domain far more often than a 4.9 or 5.0 rated player is definitely no less fair, no less able and no less civil.

well, my 5 rating was from time when I played mostly public and tournament games, while 4.9 is from time when I played clan games. so dont see how this point is good.

It also stands to reason that when you hand out 5 stars to everyone like an Italian general (for that is what clearly stands out when looking at how josko rates his opponents) then that is what you tend to get back in return. If we were to take ratings seriously then according to josko everyone should be a field marshall by now (or running for president). All of a sudden your little bubble burst when you received a handful of lower ratings for fair play and attitude and what was your response? To give the same back as you received. So your ratings are ruled by your heart and not your head.

hmm, if you see number of players I rated and number of players who rated me, you will see that I rated much less people than the ones who rated me. the reason is that I didnt want to give bad ratings to someone who I meet in 1-2 games because that person may develop in his gameplay/attitude etc and bad ratings would stay forever if we dont meet again. so, if I wanted to give someone bad ratings, I chose not rate him/her until we play at least 5-10 games so my opinion could be better documented. from the other side, if someone deserved good rating with 1-2 games played vs me, I left it ASAP as it was very pleasure to play vs him/her so why not gift him/her with good rating, it may be changed if in later games he/she shows diferent.

Game 6720344 kind of says it all really.

Game 6606144 was BEFORE game you quoted. common sense says what is worse, the things I wrote in italy chat, or the things he wrote in arms race chat. also, when you mentioned him, he received 1 star rating by me(the only ever), but I am not rated by him, nor bad nor good. so your story that I give the same ratings which i receive falls down.

If I have the same rating as you (4.9) and I'm an arrogant bastard, it just goes to show you can be too

4.9 and 5.0 is big difference, you may count number of players with 4.9 and the ones with 5.0 so you will see what I mean. the fact I still dont have 5.0 after war vs TOFU says enough about TOFU not about me, because 200+ players before TOFU rated me with 5.0 average.
you had 4.9 before KoRT clan war, so also somebody else (who rated you less)thinks you have not the best fairplay/gameplay/attitude.

You can argue all you like about how your ratings show how popular you are, it proves nothing except the level of your arrogance. The fact is that you have irritated a number of people and many of them , including myself , dont have a history of getting annoyed easily.

[josko.ri]

Where I saw a change in you was in the TOFU challenge. I think it's fair to say that because you were attacked, you responded. I really don't know which came first or why. I don't think anyone was on the "right" side in that challenge, so I won't hold that against you. I do believe you've started the fight back up a few times there (this is not one of them). But again, I can understand that because you were attacked, and it can be hard to let that go.

yes, in KoRT-TOFU thread, the majority of members posting there was from TOFU clan, often calling me for some bad things and attacked me. maybe I dont have best way to respond where someone attacks me, but it doesnt make me obnoxious player. whoever read KoRT-TOFU thread may see that I was several times called cretin, moron, josko.ritard, mad cow, etc. is it really weird that sometimes my reaction wasnt the best, after being treated like that? foxglove said good point: "Josko has been the target of every angry TOFU poster's venom. He has taken the brunt of all the insults leveled at us, and I respect him for not replying to personal insults with the same cruelty as has been shown to him. "

lot of players who played vs me know how is my fairplay, for example I always wait for opponent to take snapshot if I am first in foggy games, no mater of gametype.
Game 7499244
Game 6431313

What does strike me as a negative is your comments in this challenge (not the thread, but those two games I pointed out). In those games, you were not attacked prior to being unnecessarily rude. To belittle THOTA's gameplay in a game they won seems preposterous. Perhaps you are still very defensive because of the the TOFU challenge. I can understand that. But to project it on to your next opponent is something that you need to try to avoid.

with this you have right, it is not correct to bring in this war negative things from semifinals, and you are right I am still too sensible due to all bad things from semis.
in feudal epic it was comment "jackal31: I expected a different result given all the experience you have on this map" which insinuated our bad gameplay, so I felt free to write then exactly numbers and % which caused to end the game like that. if it wasnt that comment there, game chat would end with "gg,congrats on win" from me.
so maybe in other circumstances I wouldnt react on that but bad memories from semis are still fresh so it caused reaction which is not always the best.

if someone was offended by my commenting in ireland/f.epic, my truly apologize for that, I will really try to not implement any negative memories from semis in this clan war.

[josko.ri]

Oh, and ratings are no way to judge good players, but a good way to judge bad players. If that makes sense.

haha, totally agree
with mentioning my ratings, I didnt want to say I am good player, but I wanted to show that I am not bad player (to respond to Lubawski who said I am obnoxious).
if I am bad player, probably would someone of 200+ players who rated me and many others who didnt left any rank to me before TOFU war mention that and give me bad ratings.

[Chariot of Fire]

If you seldom play public games then you're very unlikely to get a bad rating off someone. Therefore anyone who has a rating of 4.6-4.8 yet who plays in the public domain far more often than a 4.9 or 5.0 rated player is definitely no less fair, no less able and no less civil.

well, my 5 rating was from time when I played mostly public and tournament games, while 4.9 is from time when I played clan games. so dont see how this point is good.

It also stands to reason that when you hand out 5 stars to everyone like an Italian general (for that is what clearly stands out when looking at how josko rates his opponents) then that is what you tend to get back in return. If we were to take ratings seriously then according to josko everyone should be a field marshall by now (or running for president). All of a sudden your little bubble burst when you received a handful of lower ratings for fair play and attitude and what was your response? To give the same back as you received. So your ratings are ruled by your heart and not your head.

hmm, if you see number of players I rated and number of players who rated me, you will see that I rated much less people than the ones who rated me. the reason is that I didnt want to give bad ratings to someone who I meet in 1-2 games because that person may develop in his gameplay/attitude etc and bad ratings would stay forever if we dont meet again. so, if I wanted to give someone bad ratings, I chose not rate him/her until we play at least 5-10 games so my opinion could be better documented. from the other side, if someone deserved good rating with 1-2 games played vs me, I left it ASAP as it was very pleasure to play vs him/her so why not gift him/her with good rating, it may be changed if in later games he/she shows diferent.

Game 6720344 kind of says it all really.

Game 6606144 was BEFORE game you quoted. common sense says what is worse, the things I wrote in italy chat, or the things he wrote in arms race chat. also, when you mentioned him, he received 1 star rating by me(the only ever), but I am not rated by him, nor bad nor good. so your story that I give the same ratings which i receive falls down.

If I have the same rating as you (4.9) and I'm an arrogant bastard, it just goes to show you can be too

4.9 and 5.0 is big difference, you may count number of players with 4.9 and the ones with 5.0 so you will see what I mean. the fact I still dont have 5.0 after war vs TOFU says enough about TOFU not about me, because 200+ players before TOFU rated me with 5.0 average.
you had 4.9 before KoRT clan war, so also somebody else (who rated you less)thinks you have not the best fairplay/gameplay/attitude.

You just don't get it josko. Even a commonsense argument put forward re ratings being affected by public/private games you have to find disagreement with.

Here are a few truths for you to digest:

josko.ri - public games played = 201 (14% of total). I had to lol when I read this

well, my 5 rating was from time when I played mostly public and tournament games

the.killing.44 - public games played 2,703 (79% of total)
nikola_milicki - public games played 3,838 (78%)

Yet you choose to knock them for having a 4.6 and 4.7 rating respectively. Once I found out those figures I was quite astounded that their ratings are as high as they are, but you just don't seem to comprehend this. I defy you to play 70+% of your games in the public domain and retain your precious 4.9 rating - it just won't happen.

p.s. and yes, you do irritate a lot of people - that much should be obvious by now. It started in our challenge when you began giving advice on what some of our players should and shouldn't have done, and I can see the pattern continuing. You're the catalyst for some very bad feelings, all of which escalate into situations people would rather have avoided.