[Abandoned] - Pachisi!

[Victor Sullivan]

By "expand," I don't mean describe each one in detail. I mean make it so that the map has more possible starting moves so that players have more options. In fact, now that I look at it, it looks like you should open up the map in general -- make it so that players can take alternate routes because right now you're just forcing them in a circle.

Hmmm... I can see how that could be better in a way, but we've deviated from the real gameplay of Parcheesi/Pachisi already... I'll think about, thanks for the input.

The map has come a long way from when I first saw it. Kudos on the hard work. To me it looks like there is some lack of consistency on the shade of color for the designators going around the board. It seems that it is suppose to alternate between a darker and lighter shade, but this seems to slack off, for example G2-G3 look the same shade while G1 and G4 are slightly darker. This is not consistent with the alternating in other sections.

I am looking forward to playing this one though. I think it will be a lot of fun.

Thanks, wiseman (lol)! Good spot, I'll let Spike know.

-Sully

[Ace Rimmer]

wow, just saw this map while stalking Sully. Looks fantastic, I love the gameplay, very close to the Pachisi I know and love, but still works great for CC. I don't see a thing I'd change at this point.

[Evil DIMwit]

All right, I've had a closer inspection of the gameplay, and I don't like what I see.

Hmmm... I can see how that could be better in a way, but we've deviated from the real gameplay of Parcheesi/Pachisi already...

Don't try to stick too closely to Parcheesi's gameplay. Conquer Club is a game of strategy; Parcheesi is mostly a game of luck. Players need options; they need to be able to get around. As this map is, at each step, there is very little that a player can decide to do. They can't try for a quick elimination because there are a bunch of neutrals (and the victory condition) in the way. They can't really go for a bonus region and try to defend it because all the bonuses are based on collections, which means a player's bonus is strictly determined by the proportion of the loop that they control, which is mostly based on luck of the dice. A player can either go down the loop quickly, or go down the loop a bit more slowly. There are few other options. And it doesn't help that the map is very symmetric, so even if it was more open it would still have little strategic variety. Without some serious gameplay-lifting, this map is just a long crapshoot.

[Victor Sullivan]

Okay, I see your point... I'll send the changes to Spike and have another draft up for you...

-Sully

[Victor Sullivan]

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

Alright, so Spike lost some of the changes so the one-way attacks are still in the legend and the Safe Zone bonus still needs to be fixed, but you get the idea. I'll talk to him today and hopefully get those changes done tonight.

-Sully

[Victor Sullivan]

Okay, it's fixed now:

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

Is this ready for the Graphics Workshop, then?

[MarshalNey]

It will need to be stickied first, for review by the Surveyors, et. al.

It looks like the options are a bit limited as Evil D pointed out, but I like the layout and the game-board look.

I'll think on this some more tonight, but something tells me that there needs to be at least one more bonus type or route of attack available... perhaps the Victory Objective should be opened up a bit as an option. The neutrals and the decays/killer make it impossible without lots of stacking or spoils.

[Victor Sullivan]

It will need to be stickied first, for review by the Surveyors, et. al.

It looks like the options are a bit limited as Evil D pointed out, but I like the layout and the game-board look.

I'll think on this some more tonight, but something tells me that there needs to be at least one more bonus type or route of attack available... perhaps the Victory Objective should be opened up a bit as an option. The neutrals and the decays/killer make it impossible without lots of stacking or spoils.

Well, the idea is to go around the board to collect enough of a bonus to overcome the neutrals.

And yes, it would be nice to get this stickied Let me know if you have other gameplay concepts in mind.

-Sully

[Evil DIMwit]

I still feel this doesn't quite work out. Elimination isn't an option without going through the center, which means that whether you want elimination or the Objective, the ultimate goal of this map is to get to the center. That involves getting through a lot of neutrals that there is otherwise no reason to pass through. That means a player's goal is really to achieve an overwhelming troop superiority. However, the map's very symmetric structure, its limitation of mobility, the fact that each player gets a decent auto-deploy that can't be taken away by someone who isn't holding the objective already, the fact that the other sources of troops resolve to simple proportional territory bonuses, all mean that there's no real way to gain a significant troop lead beyond lost of blind luck in the early game, and slow, mechanical expansion over many uneventful rounds. There still does not seem to be a significant component of strategy to this map, and I don't think there will be, short of a major restructuring of the map's gameplay concept.

It's pretty and it's a creative idea, but it just doesn't work.

[natty dread]

What if you have the safe zones attack each other...

[Victor Sullivan]

I still feel this doesn't quite work out. Elimination isn't an option without going through the center, which means that whether you want elimination or the Objective, the ultimate goal of this map is to get to the center. That involves getting through a lot of neutrals that there is otherwise no reason to pass through. That means a player's goal is really to achieve an overwhelming troop superiority. However, the map's very symmetric structure, its limitation of mobility, the fact that each player gets a decent auto-deploy that can't be taken away by someone who isn't holding the objective already, the fact that the other sources of troops resolve to simple proportional territory bonuses, all mean that there's no real way to gain a significant troop lead beyond lost of blind luck in the early game, and slow, mechanical expansion over many uneventful rounds. There still does not seem to be a significant component of strategy to this map, and I don't think there will be, short of a major restructuring of the map's gameplay concept.

It's pretty and it's a creative idea, but it just doesn't work.

What if you have the safe zones attack each other...

Alright, let me see what I can come up with and get back to you. It's really late/really early here in Ohio, so I'll give you something "later today" (I'd say tomorrow, but, well, it is). I think I may toss out the name "Pachisi" and call it something completely different, since it will bear little resemblance to the board game.

Evil DIMwit, I must say, to be honest, I'm rather irked you didn't say this earlier. Would've saved me a lot of time...

-Sully

[Evil DIMwit]

Evil DIMwit, I must say, to be honest, I'm rather irked you didn't say this earlier. Would've saved me a lot of time...

-Sully

I'm sorry about that. I tried to see if there was some way to make this idea work -- and I'm not entirely convinced that it can't -- but it won't take one little fix here or there.

What if you have the safe zones attack each other...

That's good for mobility, but doesn't do much for strategic variety. The map is still completely symmetric, and the bonuses are still completely collectible and uniform. It's a start, though...

Come to think of it, suppose the white space bonus was +3 for one, +1 for every 2 or 3 others within the same quadrant or octant. That, for example, would give a player more to choose, both when building their own bonus and when breaking another player's.

Another idea is to let V2, W2, X2, Y2 bombard nests instead of Home. That way players can go for an elimination without actually grabbing the objective, and without going through a heck of a lot more neutrals.

[Victor Sullivan]

Alright, so I think both of you have some good ideas. So some new ideas/possibilities:

1. Allow the safe zones to attack each other
2. Allow Red 2's to bombard nests
3. Additional +1 for 2 white spaces with the same letter
4. (This one might be a little crazy) Also a +1 for 2 white spaces with the same number

Which ones sound good? I like 'em all Also, feel free to suggest names for the map, I don't plan on keeping "Pachisi".

-Sully

[Evil DIMwit]

It's still based on a Pachisi board, so what's the problem?

[Victor Sullivan]

It's still based on a Pachisi board, so what's the problem?

It's nothing like the game, other than the fact it looks somewhat like it. The gameplay is night-and-day different.

[Evil DIMwit]

That hasn't stopped any other map name. Poker Club's nothing like real poker, Crosswords is nothing like real crosswords. Heck, Conquer Club is nothing like real conquest.

[natty dread]

Yeah Victor, Evil has a point there. You have to remember that we are working within a relatively strict framework here, with a number of limiting factors: all gameplay must be expressed with territories and troops and bonuses, no matter if they belong in the original idea or not. So while it's fun to port other boardgames to CC, you need to remember that you can't ever perfectly recreate the gameplay experience of a boardgame, using the rules of another boardgame. Kinda like playing chess with monopoly rules... it's just not possible.

However, this shouldn't discourage you from trying, and even if what you end up with plays way different from the original subject, it doesn't matter, because it's the CC interpretation of that subject - think of it as a tribute, or a cover version, or whatever.

ps. You landed on my bishop! you owe me $300.

[Victor Sullivan]

Alright, I suppose I can keep the name. And just to clarify - I haven't lost any interest in the creation of this map.

So, gameplay-wise - What did you think of the 4 points I listed above? I think it'd be cool to include them all, but the white space bonuses might be hard to keep track of. Idk... Thoughts?

[MarshalNey]

Alright, so I think both of you have some good ideas. So some new ideas/possibilities:

1. Allow the safe zones to attack each other
2. Allow Red 2's to bombard nests
3. Additional +1 for 2 white spaces with the same letter
4. (This one might be a little crazy) Also a +1 for 2 white spaces with the same number

Which ones sound good? I like 'em all

#1 and #2 are sufficient to open up the board and allow for multiple strategies.

#3 and #4 lend some more spice, which I think would make this a very intriguing map.

In other words, I like them all as well.

As for the Safe Zone bonus, it was pretty weak to begin with and will be even weaker if they can be attacked from any other Safe Zone. I'd be inclined to say axe the bonus altogether and replace it with the White Space bonuses (including #3 and #4). That would keep the legend from becoming too cluttered. The Safe Zones don't need a bonus to be valuable, since they would act as both an entryway from the Nests and a teleporter around the map.

[Victor Sullivan]

Thanks Marshal, sir! *salutes*

Sent the changes to Spike. He's recovering from the flu so methinks it will be another 2-ish days.

Btw, I included your safe zone suggestion too, I agree. Think I can start on the XML?

-Sully

[MarshalNey]

Thanks Marshal, sir! *salutes*

Sent the changes to Spike. He's recovering from the flu so methinks it will be another 2-ish days.

Btw, I included your safe zone suggestion too, I agree. Think I can start on the XML?

-Sully

Sure, as long as you don't mind re-doing it if changes get made

I know it seems long- well heck it is long most of the time- but the map will need to be reviewed when the update comes out, then stickied if acceptable and presented to the Surveyors... and then on to graphics with it.

So, I recommend patience young Grasshopper.

[Victor Sullivan]

Alright, old... Praying Mantis?

[Victor Sullivan]

Spike finally finished the changes in the legend for me

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

[Victor Sullivan]

Just noticed he put the Safe Zone bonus in the legend twice: one with the old bonus, one with the new... I'll have him fix that ASAP.

[Evil DIMwit]

The bonus list is getting a bit complicated. What I would do is, rework the white space bonuses so you get:
+2 for each letter in which you hold a white space
+1 for every two subsequent white spaces within the same letter
And no other white space bonus. That way there is a significant motivation to expand to new parts of the map.

You may also want to move "safe zones can assault each other" to where the safe zone icon is at the top of the legend, so the information about each space is grouped neatly.