[Abandoned] Research & Conquer

[carlpgoodrich]

Well, I guess people don't like the idea of the killer neutrals OR the concept of having the zeppelins bombard the mines. O well. So then what are they going to attack? I'm not sure I like the idea of them bombarding regions that are close to the homeland, since I doubt people will bring a lot of troops close to someones capital and then leave them. I think I could get on board with them replacing the doomsday device.

The major question that comes to mind is whether what you were suggesting was to replace the zeppelin tech with something else. If that's what you were suggesting, then the next obvious question would be what new tech do we come up with?

Here is my suggestion. The mining tech is really really cool, and will force people to expand probably more than anything else. How about another type of terrain, maybe "farms" or something like that, which provide a similar benefit, but need a different tech to get the benefit. Thoughts?

[Victor Sullivan]

and have the zeppelins come after mining research.

It should be noted again, as TaCKtiX has pointed out a page or so ago, that the researchs can be done in any order, not necessarily in the order that they are listed in.

Interesting... Thanks for clearing that up. Still no one has addressed my previous post:

I thought we were making a big deal about keeping the tech tree and the map separate? The zeppelins seem to violate this. That being said, I do like the idea.

I like the idea of the zeppelins bombarding mines, but agree with your concern about spying. What if the zepplins were a killer neutral (maybe 15?). That would give people the ability to spy and attack other mines, but it would be costly enough to prevent abuse.

Or... WE COULD MAKE ZEPPELINS THE DOOMSDAY DEVICE TECH!!!

Instead of automatically winning, you get able to bombard the full map through zeppelins. Including capitals.

When this map was started this did not make sense, But now, thanks to losing conditions, I think it is less abstract and way cooler.

Possibly... So would that just eliminate zeppelins from the standard research column? I definitely like the idea of the doomsday device bombarding every territory on the map instead of the doomsday device being an objective, but I don't know as if they should be the zeppelins. I say keep Tacktix's idea:

Instead, I would suggest we go with the zeppelin being able to bombard the homeland and a certain region immediately adjacent to the homeland, likely out to the rivers and mountains. We could show this with either a zeppelin-looking symbol (con: takes up more space), or with some color bordering of the same shade as the text of the nearby homeland (con: harder to understand). Preference?

-Sully

P.S. I still think using the symbols to mark those territories is the best option if implemented.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

Well, I guess people don't like the idea of the killer neutrals OR the concept of having the zeppelins bombard the mines. O well. So then what are they going to attack? I'm not sure I like the idea of them bombarding regions that are close to the homeland, since I doubt people will bring a lot of troops close to someones capital and then leave them. I think I could get on board with them replacing the doomsday device.

The major question that comes to mind is whether what you were suggesting was to replace the zeppelin tech with something else. If that's what you were suggesting, then the next obvious question would be what new tech do we come up with?

Here is my suggestion. The mining tech is really really cool, and will force people to expand probably more than anything else. How about another type of terrain, maybe "farms" or something like that, which provide a similar benefit, but need a different tech to get the benefit. Thoughts?

This could work. If this were done, then I would think that making the neutrals on them less and having more of them around, providing a +1 bonus, would be one way of varying the tech.

One other thing that I had suggested earlier, I think maybe in relation to propaganda initially, is having something that makes the neutral countries worth a bonus when you own all of one set of them. They would need to have borders put around them to make it clear and there'd need to be some renaming of territories to make it so there's a more consistent number of them (4-5 each rather than 3-6), but it would give a completely different type bonus structure and tech to research.

This would of course only apply if the zeppelins as they are now are removed, which I'm still not sure if I would prefer or not and I'm sure many would prefer not. I think it would work either way, but I'm just not sure which I'd prefer.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

and have the zeppelins come after mining research.

It should be noted again, as TaCKtiX has pointed out a page or so ago, that the researchs can be done in any order, not necessarily in the order that they are listed in.

Interesting... Thanks for clearing that up. Still no one has addressed my previous post:

Your welcome. I wonder if this is clearly stated in the instructions or not.

I thought we were making a big deal about keeping the tech tree and the map separate? The zeppelins seem to violate this. That being said, I do like the idea.

I like the idea of the zeppelins bombarding mines, but agree with your concern about spying. What if the zepplins were a killer neutral (maybe 15?). That would give people the ability to spy and attack other mines, but it would be costly enough to prevent abuse.

Or... WE COULD MAKE ZEPPELINS THE DOOMSDAY DEVICE TECH!!!

Instead of automatically winning, you get able to bombard the full map through zeppelins. Including capitals.

When this map was started this did not make sense, But now, thanks to losing conditions, I think it is less abstract and way cooler.

Possibly... So would that just eliminate zeppelins from the standard research column? I definitely like the idea of the doomsday device bombarding every territory on the map instead of the doomsday device being an objective, but I don't know as if they should be the zeppelins. I say keep Tacktix's idea:

Instead, I would suggest we go with the zeppelin being able to bombard the homeland and a certain region immediately adjacent to the homeland, likely out to the rivers and mountains. We could show this with either a zeppelin-looking symbol (con: takes up more space), or with some color bordering of the same shade as the text of the nearby homeland (con: harder to understand). Preference?

-Sully

P.S. I still think using the symbols to mark those territories is the best option if implemented.

I'd answer this question, but I'm not sure. I'm not even sure which I'd prefer, as I mentioned above.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

Before I go and forget to mention for TaCKtiX...

The lab and TSFs should be more clearly marked on the map as to which column belongs to which homeland. At the moment we can tell because the test troops are all coloured appropriately, but as soon as the map hits actual play, you will no longer be able to tell. Perhaps putting a coloured outline around the number would work? I'm sure there's better ways to fix this, but this is the best I've been able to think of so far.

[TaCktiX]

Capitals and Research are going to be starting positioned together. Sure, it's not possible as stands to tell them apart if it's an empty map, but when the game starts there's no mistake who owns what (or in the case of fog, if you can't see the research value, it's not yours). I think that "unmistakably coloring the researches and TSFs" would be easily done, but break the color scheme of the legend and research portion of the map, where bronze is the predominant color.

As for Propaganda / Zeppelins, I believe you have a good point there. Zeppelins in the form I proposed it would make more sense if Propaganda was changed to affecting neutral areas. I could change every area into a cluster of 3 or 4, though I think a bonuses for 3, 4, and 5 would be possible (knocking the present 6 areas into 2 3's). Definitely will look into that.

As for the symbol thing, it seems that there's a division in which, so I'll prototype versions of both for the update...which will have to be early next week. I'm on the netbook and my source file is on my main computer.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

Capitals and Research are going to be starting positioned together. Sure, it's not possible as stands to tell them apart if it's an empty map, but when the game starts there's no mistake who owns what (or in the case of fog, if you can't see the research value, it's not yours). I think that "unmistakably coloring the researches and TSFs" would be easily done, but break the color scheme of the legend and research portion of the map, where bronze is the predominant color.

I do agree that it would go against the colour scheme and if some other way of solving the problem can be found, I'm all for it. The problem, that I see, with relying on the starting positions is that in 2-3 player games, there will be two starting positions each. If the map does end up having the matching capital be required for the research, then there's no way to tell which capital belongs to which research tree. Even in 4-6 player games, I could see this getting very messy and hard to follow if players start trading capitals, since the players would still be in the game, but on a different capital. Say a player was playing 3-4 casual games on the map, there'd be no way for them to remember and follow reliably who's capital originally belonged to who.

I wonder if there's any way to solve the problem by having some sort of graphic instead of by colouring. Again, I don't know if this would work, but it would at least keep the colour scheme going. I wonder if maybe putting a number near the capital or homeland on the map that matches the lab number would work?

As for Propaganda / Zeppelins, I believe you have a good point there. Zeppelins in the form I proposed it would make more sense if Propaganda was changed to affecting neutral areas. I could change every area into a cluster of 3 or 4, though I think a bonuses for 3, 4, and 5 would be possible (knocking the present 6 areas into 2 3's). Definitely will look into that.

As for the symbol thing, it seems that there's a division in which, so I'll prototype versions of both for the update...which will have to be early next week. I'm on the netbook and my source file is on my main computer.

I think that the Propaganda for neutral countries sounds like a really good idea, as it could add another nice dynamic to the research bonuses and the map; especially if there's one homeland that could take better advantage of it due to there being a larger number of 3 territory countries around.

I think if it's easy enough to do both, then seeing them and being able to choose between the two options is the best way to make a final decision. Without seeing it it's hard to say which looks better.

Thanks to you and Oliver for all the time and effort that you've put and continue to put into such an awesome map

[carlpgoodrich]

Capitals and Research are going to be starting positioned together. Sure, it's not possible as stands to tell them apart if it's an empty map, but when the game starts there's no mistake who owns what (or in the case of fog, if you can't see the research value, it's not yours). I think that "unmistakably coloring the researches and TSFs" would be easily done, but break the color scheme of the legend and research portion of the map, where bronze is the predominant color.

I do agree that it would go against the colour scheme and if some other way of solving the problem can be found, I'm all for it. The problem, that I see, with relying on the starting positions is that in 2-3 player games, there will be two starting positions each. If the map does end up having the matching capital be required for the research, then there's no way to tell which capital belongs to which research tree. Even in 4-6 player games, I could see this getting very messy and hard to follow if players start trading capitals, since the players would still be in the game, but on a different capital. Say a player was playing 3-4 casual games on the map, there'd be no way for them to remember and follow reliably who's capital originally belonged to who.

I wonder if there's any way to solve the problem by having some sort of graphic instead of by colouring. Again, I don't know if this would work, but it would at least keep the colour scheme going. I wonder if maybe putting a number near the capital or homeland on the map that matches the lab number would work?

Right now the Laboratories and Top Secret Facilities have the numbers "1" "2" etc above to distinguish them. Why not just call them "N" "NE" etc to correspond to the homelands with the similar names. No ambiguity there, and no color change or awkward graphics.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

Right now the Laboratories and Top Secret Facilities have the numbers "1" "2" etc above to distinguish them. Why not just call them "N" "NE" etc to correspond to the homelands with the similar names. No ambiguity there, and no color change or awkward graphics.

That sounds like a really good idea. It would certainly be better than anything that I came up with and it would also fix the ambiguity issue.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

While I'm thinking about it...

Oliver, a while back when I looked at the XML tags for kicks, I believe I saw one that sets the number of troops you get per number of territories. If there is such a tag, then would it be possible to put it within a continent's bonus tags so that you could cut the Secret and Open Conscription code down to virtually nothing? I'm guessing not for whatever reason, but thought I'd throw it out there just incase

[TaCktiX]

Right now the Laboratories and Top Secret Facilities have the numbers "1" "2" etc above to distinguish them. Why not just call them "N" "NE" etc to correspond to the homelands with the similar names. No ambiguity there, and no color change or awkward graphics.

Which is a really good idea. It shall be done.

[ender516]

While I'm thinking about it...

Oliver, a while back when I looked at the XML tags for kicks, I believe I saw one that sets the number of troops you get per number of territories. If there is such a tag, then would it be possible to put it within a continent's bonus tags so that you could cut the Secret and Open Conscription code down to virtually nothing? I'm guessing not for whatever reason, but thought I'd throw it out there just incase

Unfortunately, the <reinforcements/> tag only works on the map as a whole. It would be an excellent addition to the XML functionality, though. I will see if it is in the wish list, and add it if not.

EDIT: I cannot find the wish list topic. Advanced search is failing me somehow. I hope to check again later when I have more time.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

While I'm thinking about it...

Oliver, a while back when I looked at the XML tags for kicks, I believe I saw one that sets the number of troops you get per number of territories. If there is such a tag, then would it be possible to put it within a continent's bonus tags so that you could cut the Secret and Open Conscription code down to virtually nothing? I'm guessing not for whatever reason, but thought I'd throw it out there just incase

Unfortunately, the <reinforcements/> tag only works on the map as a whole. It would be an excellent addition to the XML functionality, though. I will see if it is in the wish list, and add it if not.

EDIT: I cannot find the wish list topic. Advanced search is failing me somehow. I hope to check again later when I have more time.

I don't have the time to go searching through the thread to see if its there already, but I at least can point you to the thread's URL:

viewtopic.php?f=127&t=103961

I had suspected that there was a problem along these lines with the tag I was remembering. I do think that it would be a nice addition and would add some nice variety to map design as well. I wouldn't expect it to be that difficult to code either, though I admittedly know very little about the code behind the site or the language that it would use.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

Hey TaCktiX and Oliver, how are things coming with the map? Haven't heard anything from the thread for 4-5 days now.

I skipped through the last page or so worth of posts and couldn't find anything that was unresolved discussion wise. Is there anything that I missed that should be being discussed to get hammered out?

[TaCktiX]

I'm getting to working on the graphical end of things, but my life is throwing me curveballs something nasty right now, and when it's an effort not to feel horrifically depressed, using Photoshop isn't high on the priority list.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

I'm getting to working on the graphical end of things, but my life is throwing me curveballs something nasty right now, and when it's an effort not to feel horrifically depressed, using Photoshop isn't high on the priority list.

I'm sorry to hear that things aren't going well for you TaCktiX I hope everything works itself out and you start to feel better soon.

[OliverFA]

I am working on the XML part of the map. I think I'll have the Mine tech done by Tuesday (tomorrow is a busy day) and then on Tuesday I'll also answer your intelligent and well thougt comments. Thanks for caring about the map

Then, progress will be at 45% with four techs and the territories left. Things are still moving even if it's not as fast as we would like. But I want to say that you help to keep them moving with your interest. It's a very powerful motivator

[carlpgoodrich]

If interest is helpful, then this is me being helpful . Unfortunately I am not as intelligent as some, but the interest is definitely here. Like many others, I expect this to become the most popular map on CC.

[OliverFA]

And Mining Tech is also done! As usually, XML file can be seen here

http://www.arrakis.es/~oliverfa/ResearchAndConquer%20v%200.11.XML

There are 3 techs left: Propaganda, Activated Reserves, and Open Conscription.

Then the adjacencies and the less granular version to reduce size.

Also, another pending task is to answer your very helpful suggestions in the previous page. I'll try to find time tomorrow morning. If that's not possible, will do during the evening.

Last, you can see the progress here:

Click image to enlarge.

[OliverFA]

If interest is helpful, then this is me being helpful . Unfortunately I am not as intelligent as some, but the interest is definitely here. Like many others, I expect this to become the most popular map on CC.

Beleive me. It IS helpful. Is easier to find energies to work thanks to your interest

[OliverFA]

Let's name current options:
Option II-1(I use II to differentiate them from the previous options we had)
- Your own capital in order to get benefits.
- At least one geographical map territory in order to stay alive (can be no-capital).

Option II-2
- Your own capital in order to get benefits.
- At least one capital to stay alive (even if it's not your own one).

Option II-3
- Your own capital in order to stay alive.

I like Option II-1 best, but I'd be moderately satisfied with Option II-2.

-Sully

I think option II-1 could work if we added another condition. I'll reformolate it again. Let's see what you think about it:

- Your own capital in order to get tech benefits.
- At least one geographical map territory in order to stay alive (can be no-capital).
- Get the 6 capitals in order to win the game.

This would make the capital still important, because if you lose it you cannot user your techs anymore, but at the same time would allow players to stay alive in game and try to wait for two of the big players to be busy so they can reconquer their capital. Last by adding the 6 capitals objective we avoid the boring part in which a player needs to conquer every single territory to win the game.

The con that I can see is that maybe a player without tech benefits is so weak that he can do nothing more than just stay alive, delaying the game wihtout adding anything to the game.

[OliverFA]

One major thing that you missed is that Zeppelins, even in their original form, allow a player to bombard a neutral over and over again for cards during card games. This, as anyone who plays Feudal or any number of other conquer based maps with bombard spots, is a fairly big thing as it allows a player to stay in the same general vacinity and build troops. Whether you wish to allow this type of gameplay could be a factor in the decision of keeping zeppelins or converting them to something like the Doomsday Device tech.

I dislike this behaviour too. But as I see it, it's a CC issue, because it happens to all maps. For this reason I think that if we can avoid it is ok, but if we can't, well... it is not our fault

[OliverFA]

Doomsday Device
I feel very comfortable with the idea of Doomsday Device being able to bombard everything. After all it is supposed to be an overpowered unbalancing tech. So let's allow the player to feel all-mighty once he descovers that technology.

Zeppelins
It is true that the problem with zeppelins (even with the version that we had before realizing it was a very weak technology, and that we are trying to replace with something better) has the issue of connecting somehow the tech part and the geographic part. A player can always reinforce his "reasearch armies" to the Zeppelins tech and use it to attack next turn.

The killer neutrals is not a solution, because a player could reinforce to the lab and next turn attack zeppelins from there with his mighty force.

I think it's not such a big issue. For one reason: The player still needs one turn to reinforce from the tech tree to Zeppelins. This turn can be seen as a change in priorities. Player is moving resources from science to air force. And because they can bombard but never can occupy, infantry will still be needed.

I am not sure about the tech allowing to bombard a bigger part of the map. It could work, or it could make the game too opened. I usually believe that a territory that bombards too many territories kills the strategy in a map. And it would also do the same in this map. Unless we raise the tech cost a lot and place it as an advanced tech.

What about this compromise? We extend Zeppelins to the player's homeland plus the territories inmmediately adjacent to this homeland. Anything more than this I believe it's too much and too strategy-breaking.

Ok, se I'll summarize options again:

Z1-Leave zeppelins as they are now, and make it a cheap technology due to it's relative weakness.
Z2-Extend it to just the homelands and the immediately adhacent territories. Medium cost
Z3-Extend it to a bigger area in the map, and make it a very costly tech (I still dislike this option).

What I dislike about zeppelins is that a player can acumulate a lot of troops in their zeppelin tech. In that place those troops are safe, ready to attack anyone who dares to come. This, even with option Z1, could turn taking the capital into an Impossible Mission.

I have two ideas to tweak this down a bit:

Zeppelins - Air Superiority
I've just thougt about a concept that could be interesting. Air superiority. In WW2, having air superiority made things easier for land troops. Maybe battle in the air could be simulated by allowing zeppelings to bombard the air territories (either Z1, Z2 or Z3) AND the other zepelins.

Zeppelins - Negative Autodeploy
Give a very big negative autodeploy to zeppelins. Such as -999. And of course place a big warning in the map so newbie players don't have their armies wiped (they will anyway, but I hope it's not such a big issue). This would limit teh air power of any given nation to their income per turn at most. Maybe that option could work with Z3.

So we hace 9 combinations.
Z1
Z2
Z3
Z1+AS
Z2+AS
Z3+AS
Z1+NA
Z2+NA
Z3+NA

[OliverFA]

Here is my suggestion. The mining tech is really really cool, and will force people to expand probably more than anything else. How about another type of terrain, maybe "farms" or something like that, which provide a similar benefit, but need a different tech to get the benefit. Thoughts?

Hi Carl. The problem that I see with this is that we are just having two techs which are the same. If we could come with an advanced version of Mining tech (like open conscription is an advanced version of secret conscription) that would be cool. But I think it would be better to avoid having the same tech twice . What do you think?

[carlpgoodrich]

Of the three zeppelin choices, Z2 is the best IMHO. However, I still don't see it as being anything more than a defensive "last stand" tech. Someone takes my homeland so its time to research zeppelins and bombard their defense so I can get my homeland back. Maybe this is a good thing, maybe not. The ideas of Air superiority and negative autodeploy are very interesting, here are my thoughts on each.

Negative Autodeploy: This is a good way to keep people from stockpiling on the zeppelins. However, I would just stockpile on the Lab (which gets the autodeploy anyways) and then only "research" the zeppelins after someone takes my homeland. I could then move my whole stack to the zeppelins and bombard with many troops. You could say "well, you can only do this once, and then you are limited by your deployment," but first there are no technologies that are more valuable immediately after you discover them than they are later in life, and if someone takes your homeland you will probably be getting only 3 to deploy anyways, so why not just put them on the territory you are moving in with? I think this would make zeppelins a one time use thing.

Air Superiority: This is an interesting idea. By itself I'm not sure it would do much, again because zeppelins would primarily be used as a defensive tactic and probably wouldn't be researched until after someone takes your homeland. One possibility would be to have zeppelins attack, not bombard, other zeppelins, so you could go from your zeppelin to someone else's and bombard their homeland. This would make zeppelins an offensive weapon, although ground troops would still be needed to conquer a region. I think this could work on a number of levels, and by making the starting neutral value of the tech high enough (and maybe giving it a -1 or -2 auto), I don't think it would drastically change the gameplay, just add a different element.