International hotspot: Caucasus

[jasnostj]

With hostilities between Georgia and Russia about South Ossetia flaring up in recent days, I make another plea for a good Caucasus map.

See viewtopic.php?p=522675#522675 (scroll down) for the original post.

Which skilled cartographer wants to take this further?

Mail me for more information or the photoshop file, on jasnostj-at-yahoo.com, as I won't be around here too often.



- portions of Russia, Turkey and Iran on the sides, with country bonuses
- Azerbaijan, Georgia and Armenia in the centre, with country bonuses
- Azerbaijan and Armenia are both only complete with Karabakh
- Kurdistan, Greater Armenia and Greater Azerbaijan bonuses (overlap with Turkey, Iran and each other)
- independence bonus for Chechnya
- unification bonus for N and S Osetia
- Russia influence bonus for Abkhazia
- oil bonuses for Baku and the BTC pipeline

Bombardments would be an interesting addition, but haven't come up with anything yet.

[stickamus]

Can i help you create this map

[The Viking]

It would be interesting, with so many overlapping bonuses and whatnot.

[stickamus]

do u know how to design maps

[jasnostj]

I'm back here to lobby for my Caucasus map ideas. Just as relevant as it ever was, think of the recent Moscow and Dagestan suicide bombings. Anyone interested? I do not have the ability to take this any further, but I think it would make for an interesting CC map (I mean, why so many unimaginative maps of tiny, uninteresting places like Luxemburg or San Marino, and not of this international hotspot?).

[theBastard]

this looks interesting. two notices now,
1, what about to do map more based on Caucasus region? so cut off Iran, Turkey and north part of Russia?
2, hm, the political and national bonuses looks (for me) a little confusing...

[jasnostj]

this looks interesting. two notices now,
1, what about to do map more based on Caucasus region? so cut off Iran, Turkey and north part of Russia?
2, hm, the political and national bonuses looks (for me) a little confusing...

The multiple ethnic conflicts is what makes this region 'interesting' (sorry for my phrasing to the people over there - I know quite a few of them - who they are subject to all this misery). The only way to include them all is having sections of the 3 neighboring countries on the edges (plus Iraq, Syria), since they are a party in several of the conflicts that plague the Caucasus region.

As to your second remark: the Caucasus region IS confusing.

[theBastard]

The multiple ethnic conflicts is what makes this region 'interesting' (sorry for my phrasing to the people over there - I know quite a few of them - who they are subject to all this misery). The only way to include them all is having sections of the 3 neighboring countries on the edges (plus Iraq, Syria), since they are a party in several of the conflicts that plague the Caucasus region.

As to your second remark: the Caucasus region IS confusing.

yes I agree about multiple ethnics conflict. Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Osetia, Dagestan, Chechnya, Russia, Abkhazia, Karabakh (and much more as shows map down) are a few?
it´s your idea/map, I just like more centerd maps on direct region...

I mean that bonuses should be confusing for gameplay.

Click image to enlarge.

[jasnostj]

(withdrawn)

[jasnostj]

yes I agree about multiple ethnics conflict. Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Osetia, Dagestan, Chechnya, Russia, Abkhazia, Karabakh (and much more as shows map down) are a few?

The over 50 ethnic groups (Encyclopædia Britannica) are not ALL fighting, fortunately!

[theBastard]

yes I agree about multiple ethnics conflict. Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Osetia, Dagestan, Chechnya, Russia, Abkhazia, Karabakh (and much more as shows map down) are a few?

The over 50 ethnic groups (Encyclopædia Britannica) are not ALL fighting, fortunately!

yes, and also Turkey not fighting with Caucasian nations, Kurds not fighting with Russia...
you can have in map political bonuses and also national bonuses. so there is way to use fighting ethnic groups and also non fightning ethnic groups.

but as I wrote before, it´s your map, so it´s your choose how it will looks.

[jasnostj]

yes, and also Turkey not fighting with Caucasian nations, Kurds not fighting with Russia...
you can have in map political bonuses and also national bonuses. so there is way to use fighting ethnic groups and also non fightning ethnic groups.

Well, Turkey does have a (huge and longstanding) conflict with Armenia. And with the Kurds. And the Kurds with Iran. And Iran with Azerbaijan. And Azerbaijan with Armenia. And Armenia with Georgia. And Georgia with Russia, the Ossetians, Abkhazians. And Russia with Chechnya. And then there's the oil. It's all intersected, that's why the bonuses are overlapping. It reflects the complex nature of the region. And overlapping bonuses are relatively new, I haven't seen it on many other maps. And it's quite simple too, they are just normal bonuses for which you have to hold certain bordering territories, except that it's more likely that you have to fight to hold them, because they are required for other players' bonuses as well. It is so logical that I am surprised that nobody came up with it before.

I am not sure I understand what you mean with fighting and non fighting ethnic groups. The nationalities of the Northern Caucasus that are not directly involved in any conflicts are represented as plain green Russian territories (since they are peacefully coexisting as autonomous republics within the Russian Federation).

but as I wrote before, it´s your map, so it´s your choose how it will looks.

Well that's the problem: I don't have sufficient time and graphic/programming skills to do this myself. The people in here who do seem to prefer their own projects. It's a pity really, because it would really be interesting to play it.

[jasnostj]

P.S. Why is there no Slovakia map yet? My petty country is represented already, twice. On maps that have no distinguishing gameplay or thematic features whatsoever, ofcourse. Why be creative if you can be boring.

[natty dread]

overlapping bonuses are something new, I haven't seen it on any other map.

Space map?

[jasnostj]

Corrected. My overlapping bonuses are actually much more 'messy' than on the space map, as intended. As said before, the Caucasus region IS messy. That's what would make it a good map, IMO.

[theBastard]

Well, Turkey does have a (huge and longstanding) conflict with Armenia. And with the Kurds. And the Kurds with Iran. And Iran with Azerbaijan. And Azerbaijan with Armenia. And Armenia with Georgia. And Georgia with Russia, the Ossetians, Abkhazians. And Russia with Chechnya.

your map looks as from presence. so is there any conflict between Turkesy and Armenia? Iran with Azerbadjan? there are only ethnic conflict now. or I missed Third world war in Caucasus?

And then there's the oil. It's all intersected, that's why the bonuses are overlapping. It reflects the complex nature of the region. And overlapping bonuses are relatively new, I haven't seen it on many other maps. And it's quite simple too, they are just normal bonuses for which you have to hold certain bordering territories, except that it's more likely that you have to fight to hold them, because they are required for other players' bonuses as well. It is so logical that I am surprised that nobody came up with it before.

I´m not gameplay maker, so if you think the bonuses are good go fo it.

I am not sure I understand what you mean with fighting and non fighting ethnic groups. The nationalities of the Northern Caucasus that are not directly involved in any conflicts are represented as plain green Russian territories (since they are peacefully coexisting as autonomous republics within the Russian Federation).

so you think that all non fighting ethnic groups live in Russia, yes? I think there are many non fightng groups living in other Caucasian countries .

P.S. Why is there no Slovakia map yet?

do not worry, I have idea in head. but you can work only on two maps.

My petty country is represented already, twice. On maps that have no distinguishing gameplay or thematic features whatsoever, ofcourse.

made by you? or did you helped with any?

Why be creative if you can be boring.

look at my maps if they are boring. I think there are some new things (with all my bashfulness). again, it´s your idea and go for it.

[jasnostj]

your map looks as from presence. so is there any conflict between Turkesy and Armenia? Iran with Azerbadjan? there are only ethnic conflict now. or I missed Third world war in Caucasus?

They are mostly political (hence 'political bonuses'), diplomatic conflicts, not military. Armenian and Azerbaijanian nationalists have never given up their dreams of a Greater Armenia and Azerbaijan. Because of that (and other reasons), the relations between Armenia and Turkey, and between Azerbaijan and Iran, are still very tense.
Ironic that you mention a Third World War. Sometime during the Nagorno-Karabakh war (and don't forget that that war never formally ended) there was mention of that, when Turkey (member of NATO) threatened to come to the aid of Azerbaijan over the exclave of Nakhchivan. With Russia openly supporting Armenia, that would have constituted a Third World War. To prevent it, Armenia was forced to back down.

so you think that all non fighting ethnic groups live in Russia, yes? I think there are many non fightng groups living in other Caucasian countries .

Oh no certainly not, although the northern Caucasus is distinctly more ethnically diverse than the south. But the southern Caucasus is already overshadowed by the conflicts between 5 countries (plus the Kurds), and many ethno-linguistic groups in the southern Caucasus are simply too small to be represented, with sometimes as few as a couple hundreds members. Ajaria is the notable exception.

do not worry, I have idea in head. but you can work only on two maps.

look at my maps if they are boring. I think there are some new things (with all my bashfulness).

I wasn't aware that you are making maps. Which are they?

made by you? or did you helped with any?

I tried, but the mapmaker wouldn't listen (happens to me more often). Mostly my opnion is that these maps are uninteresting, so I don't really care. And there shouldn't be 2 that are almost identical.

[theBastard]

They are mostly political (hence 'political bonuses'), diplomatic conflicts, not military. Armenian and Azerbaijanian nationalists have never given up their dreams of a Greater Armenia and Azerbaijan. Because of that (and other reasons), the relations between Armenia and Turkey, and between Azerbaijan and Iran, are still very tense.
Ironic that you mention a Third World War. Sometime during the Nagorno-Karabakh war (and don't forget that that war never formally ended) there was mention of that, when Turkey (member of NATO) threatened to come to the aid of Azerbaijan over the exclave of Nakhchivan. With Russia openly supporting Armenia, that would have constituted a Third World War. To prevent it, Armenia was forced to back down.

I realy do not believe that Caucas will be the causer of Third World War. look at the last conflict between Russia and Georgia - EU, USA, NATO did not support Georgia (if we forgot political bla, bla, bla)

I wasn't aware that you are making maps. Which are they?

viewtopic.php?f=241&t=107186
viewtopic.php?f=63&t=110878

I tried, but the mapmaker wouldn't listen (happens to me more often). Mostly my opnion is that these maps are uninteresting, so I don't really care. And there shouldn't be 2 that are almost identical.

hm, than try to do them yourself (I had not graphic skills when I started work on maps as you can see how looks my first attempts - horror , so if you have not enough graphic skills now, you can teach them.) the truth is that I had fortuantely good teacher - Industrial Helix.
or try ask any skilled graphic maker...

[jasnostj]

I realy do not believe that Caucas will be the causer of Third World War. look at the last conflict between Russia and Georgia - EU, USA, NATO did not support Georgia (if we forgot political bla, bla, bla)

The Karabakh war was a lot longer and hotter than the South Ossetia 'war' (basically not much more than a single campaign). Plus, more importantly, Turkey, the 'loose gun' of NATO, was feeling extremely uneasy about it. If they would have been drawn into the conflict, no knowing what would have happened. I am not saying that I believe World War Three was at hand, but there wás mention of it then.

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=241&t=107186
viewtopic.php?f=63&t=110878

Great work! My compliments.

hm, than try to do them yourself (I had not graphic skills when I started work on maps as you can see how looks my first attempts - horror , so if you have not enough graphic skills now, you can teach them.) the truth is that I had fortuantely good teacher - Industrial Helix. or try ask any skilled graphic maker...

Helix seems like a nice guy. But busy enough, it seems. I haven't tried asking anyone personally, instead this post is my sollicitation. The point with learning myself, is that I really don't have the time for that. I have a job and a family, and in recent years I have given priority to another pet project (see http://www.sitzkrieg.hyves.nl) to devote my spare freetime to. Just thought that my ideas might be interesting enough for others to develop, so I decided to give it another try.

[theBastard]

Great work! My compliments.

thanks. the final great graphic is done by porkenbeans. I´m, as you, more interesting in gameplay...

Helix seems like a nice guy. But busy enough, it seems. I haven't tried asking anyone personally, instead this post is my sollicitation. The point with learning myself, is that I really don't have the time for that. I have a job and a family, and in recent years I have given priority to another pet project (see http://www.sitzkrieg.hyves.nl) to devote my spare freetime to. Just thought that my ideas might be interesting enough for others to develop, so I decided to give it another try.

he helps me a lot. and no one my stupid question was stupid for him, he answered all... it seems that all skilled graphic makers are pretty busy.

I look at your link, what is it? is it played through net also? I can see maps, soldiers, airplanes...

[jasnostj]

It's a board game based on Axis & Allies. We've got a couple people playing it every once in a while. More interesting though is developing it further. Kneading history, with all its peculiarities, into a game that maintains playability for anyone who is interested. At the moment I am working on the production system: which weapons (guns, tanks, planes, ships) were produced where, and how to represent import to countries/areas that didn't produce anything themselves. The map is also on the shortlist to be completely renewed, with many more realistic geographic features to be added.

[theBastard]

so people can buy it in shop? or is it for "community"? are all maps/games from modern era? (with tanks, plains...) or you also think about ancient or another era?

[jasnostj]

You obviously don't know what Axis & Allies is, I realized later, or else you would have instantly recognized it. It is a WWII board game. Basically Risk, a map with territories (land and sea), with lots of extra units (not just 'soldiers' or 'armies') and rules. Read and see more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_and_Allies and here: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/98/axis-allies. In the period when Milton Bradley wasn't marketing it, all throughout the 1990s, many people started developing their own variants, including even semi-commercial clones. The version I have adopted (now fittingly called "Sitzkrieg", a pun on Blitzkrieg and the name the Germans used to mock the Allies after the invasion of Poland for just sitting and waiting what would happen next) spins from that period. Our game is open-source (the rulebook is on our site), although the guy I do this with does sell off some of his stuff to interested players. Mostly people will have to collect their own set of materials from commercial Axis and Allies variants, plastic soldiers (the commanders and political leaders are my personal pride: I have identified over 80 historical personalities to use in the game, mostly with generic rules and just for fun, among plastic soldiers currently on the market), other board games, etc. With all the materials required and the limited audience it would appeal to (even after a lot of playing we never manage to play the game to the end during a whole long weekend, too long for most people), I don't think commercial exploitation would ever be an option.

[theBastard]

You obviously don't know what Axis & Allies is, I realized later, or else you would have instantly recognized it. It is a WWII board game. Basically Risk, a map with territories (land and sea), with lots of extra units (not just 'soldiers' or 'armies') and rules. Read and see more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_and_Allies and here: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/98/axis-allies. In the period when Milton Bradley wasn't marketing it, all throughout the 1990s, many people started developing their own variants, including even semi-commercial clones. The version I have adopted (now fittingly called "Sitzkrieg", a pun on Blitzkrieg and the name the Germans used to mock the Allies after the invasion of Poland for just sitting and waiting what would happen next) spins from that period. Our game is open-source (the rulebook is on our site), although the guy I do this with does sell off some of his stuff to interested players. Mostly people will have to collect their own set of materials from commercial Axis and Allies variants, plastic soldiers (the commanders and political leaders are my personal pride: I have identified over 80 historical personalities to use in the game, mostly with generic rules and just for fun, among plastic soldiers currently on the market), other board games, etc. With all the materials required and the limited audience it would appeal to (even after a lot of playing we never manage to play the game to the end during a whole long weekend, too long for most people), I don't think commercial exploitation would ever be an option.

this looks interesting, but as you wrote it needs too much time. and I think players must meet together...

why not go for commercial? it looks enough different from others table games...

[jasnostj]

this looks interesting, but as you wrote it needs too much time. and I think players must meet together...

It's a whole different ball game. I must say I like the element of actually MEETING people.

why not go for commercial? it looks enough different from others table games...

Well, who knows...