Re: WWI: Gallipoli [9.9.15] V39 (p22) [Quenched]

[cairnswk]

Hmm, well of course it does give people to aim for, the thing is I believe that the only two times it will be even thought of as an option are: when one's opponent only has battleships remaining, and someone wants an easy win (like the castles on Feudal … in fact this is what I'd really compare it to); secondly when someone is in a casual freestyle someone wishes to double turn (in this case like the City Mogul objective). I guess it isn't that bad to have the option, as long as there is the ability to eliminate the opponent(s), but I just don't see it being executed.

I don't think there is the ability to eliminate the opponents with this objective option. So in that respect it could turn out like another SchloSS. Heaven forbid, Mergatroid!

On another note, I'm just going to go down the legend:
BATTLESHIPS

show: current

I suggest:

Battleships
- lose two
troops per round
- can bombard
any position
marked by: Ø

Changes * to -, puts the first two lines into one and the last line with "can" and the symbol immediately following a colon.

LANDING BEACHES

show: current

I suggest:

Landing Beaches
(A,B,C,S,V,W,X,Y,Z
& others marked by yellow*)
- lose 1 troop
per round
- can bombard
respectively named
landing craft

* you should make "yellow" have the same effect on it as the title/territories themselves
Changes list to alphabetical, gets rid of spaces in between letters, adds parentheses, * to -, condenses first two lines, adds "named" to craft note.

FORTS

show: current

I suggest:

Forts: normal
land attack
and can bombard
sea terts in
the Dardanelles
and the Narrows*

*have to specify what the Narrows are?
Changes "sea bombard". also note I'm not sure what we can or cannot use as the word for terts

SEAMINES

show: current

I suggest:

Seamines:
turn neutral
per turn

CROSSING PTS are good

~ for those above I think you need some way to separate the blocks of text, whether by a line or just extra spacing ~

All land territories for each position held (per turn autodeploy)

Not quite sure what each position is in the first place, and where is the auto-deploy put?

All convoy landing ships (not L#
or MS#) for each ship held (per
turn autodeploy)

Once again, where is the auto-deploy placed? If it's on each individual convoy landing ship, I'd think:

Auto-deploy on each convoy landing ship
(ships not shown as L# or MS#) per each ship held

All of this is attended to, I beleive, although in some places because of space, i have shortened your suggestions.

Another graphical note, maybe you could give the impassables some depth?
Looks sweet,
.44

Yes, the impassables are impassable for my creativity at present. But they'll get there.

[cairnswk]

Version 13.
1. the sandy coloured continent outline changed to blue outline so as to not clash with the sand colour for the beaches.
2. implementation of almost all of .44's suggestions for the legend.
3. added the Narrows text where needed
4. added objective statement
5. adjusted some mine-sweepers

Click image to enlarge.

[thenobodies80]

What are ships not marked L# or MS#?

[the.killing.44]

What are ships not marked L# or MS#?

Battleships, I believe. Though cairns should clarify.

I'm not so sure about the squiggly lines, though they are better than nothing

What does the white line going through the center do? I'll wait for the next graphical update to really tear at it

.44

[captainwalrus]

What does the white line going through the center do? I'll wait for the next graphical update to really tear at it

.44

You mean the road? I like the road.

Impassibles still need to be made into something.

[cairnswk]

What are ships not marked L# or MS#?

Landing Craft L1-13
or Mine Sweepers MS1-7
I'm sorry to have to say this, but don't you guys ever read a map?

[cairnswk]

What are ships not marked L# or MS#?

Battleships, I believe. Though cairns should clarify.

Are not the battleships marked BS?

I'm not so sure about the squiggly lines, though they are better than nothing

What squiggly lines are you referring to?

What does the white line going through the center do? I'll wait for the next graphical update to really tear at it
.44

...Impassibles still need to be made into something.

That is a road, and yes i need to clarify that.
But i would prefer that you tear into it now before i do the next update, because i am still searching for something suitable to use for the imapssables...

[cairnswk]

Version 13.

Click image to enlarge.

[thenobodies80]

What are ships not marked L# or MS#?

Landing Craft L1-13
or Mine Sweepers MS1-7
I'm sorry to have to say this, but don't you guys ever read a map?

Sorry, i'm still confused.
You're saying :

- (per turn autodeploy) each convoy landing ship held (not marked l# or MS#) +2

If i try to search a ship NOT marked L# or MS# there are only BS.(and i don't think you are going to give them a -2 bonus and a +2 bonus in the same time. )
I assure you that i have read the map

[cairnswk]

What are ships not marked L# or MS#?

Landing Craft L1-13
or Mine Sweepers MS1-7
I'm sorry to have to say this, but don't you guys ever read a map?

Sorry, i'm still confused.
You're saying :

- (per turn autodeploy) each convoy landing ship held (not marked l# or MS#) +2

If i try to search a ship NOT marked L# or MS# there are only BS.(and i don't think you are going to give them a -2 bonus and a +2 bonus in the same time. )
I assure you that i have read the map

Oh dear
What can i say, but i'm tired after having to reformat and reload the entire C Drive just to get Illustrator to take...24 hours later...
I'm sorry theonebodies yes you have read the map - it is me who doesn't even know what he's got on his map...
I knew as soon as i wrote that comment it would come back to bite me bigtime and it did!! But i was too tired to edit it.
it was a reference to vessels that are no longer there, and it has to be sorted...somehow...another day.
Time for bed i think, and i need someone to cut the barbed wire on my tongue also, and then rinse my mouth out with soap.

[thenobodies80]

...and i need someone to cut the barbed wire on my tongue also, and then rinse my mouth out with soap.

i think it's better...
I apologize for having asked for a clarification or interfered in any way to the development of your map.

[cairnswk]

...and i need someone to cut the barbed wire on my tongue also, and then rinse my mouth out with soap.

i think it's better...
I apologize for having asked for a clarification or interfered in any way to the development of your map.

Why are you apologising for asking for clarification on the map?
It is i who have apologised to you for being so nasty and bitter of tongue through being tired.
You have not interferred with the development of the map?
It is I who has been tartdy in my response to your questions.

[thenobodies80]

...and i need someone to cut the barbed wire on my tongue also, and then rinse my mouth out with soap.

i think it's better...
I apologize for having asked for a clarification or interfered in any way to the development of your map.

Why are you apologising for asking for clarification on the map?
It is i who have apologised to you for being so nasty and bitter of tongue through being tired.
You have not interferred with the development of the map?
It is I who has been tartdy in my response to your questions.

okay, maybe i'm a but tired....and i had to go sleep before going on this thread.....
sorry if i misunderstood...i thought you was sarcastic.

[cairnswk]

Version 14

clarification on the roads and that bonus

Click image to enlarge.

[the.killing.44]

Okay then

Legend
The squiggly lines I was referring to are the ones that separate the sections of the legend. Now that I look at it more I think it does fit the rest of the map.

"turn neutral per turn" sounds a bit awkward with the double usage of both kinds of "turn." Perhaps if we used something like "turn back to neutral per round" it would be better? (By the by it's per round not turn, though I know what you were implying.)

As stated in PM, the blur of the battleship at the top is a bit unnerving to the eye…

The rest looks nice, the convoy landing ships are the L# and MS#, correct?

Impassable Borders
Hmm, after looking at the landscape of the area I can only really suggest sand dunes or rocky cliff-type walls…

Road
Pretty good, just a small thought but a black or dark brown stroke would be more apparent and road-like? Also, though it is pretty obvious, it could be better both from a gameplay and graphic perspective to have some sort of "checkpoint" where the villages meet the towns, if it's only something that looks like a bridge? I don't think "checkpoint" is the right word for it but just something to note that there is a connection

Seamine & Fort Icons
Forts look good, they're both subject to the same question — why are the lines dotted? Also, I noticed that the seamines you have on the legend are filled in with a light blue whilst the map's ones are transparent — I think the light blue ones look better. As an added bonus, the fill would cover up the dotted lines that currently run through the circles and under the numbers, looking a bit unpleasing to the eye…

Miscellaneous
Perhaps it's better to scrap "Gulf of Xeros" as it makes some confusion about tert names?

What's the, as thenobodies put it, egg doing in the top right?

Maybe there could be a way to make "Dardanelles" and "The Narrows" stand out a tiny bit more without increasing the opacity (thinking along the lines of darker stroke, dark outer glow, etc.)?

The bottom left arrow seems to have put on a bit of weight…

Speaking of that corner, perhaps if we moved the "V" to the other side of the circle and moved the V-W border to the right it would improve the clarity of the currently cluttered region?

Does N. Point border Lower Suvla Plain? The shaded color of that cove is misleading…

Graphics are pretty good, I'm intrigued by your latest PM (cue suspense…)
Let's get a gameplay guy in here
.44

[cairnswk]

Version 15.
New colour scheme -> I'd thought about where to go with this map, and the obvious choice for me was to represent this battle at dawn when most of the landings took place.
To this extent, the map has been graduated in shades to the rising sun in the East.
Not everything is in correct colour at present, and i'm sure there will be lots of changes made to the impassables etc.

I've also taken off the starting positions on land - let's discuss those, but we'll need about 16.

Click image to enlarge.

[cairnswk]

...
Graphics are pretty good, I'm intrigued by your latest PM (cue suspense…)
Let's get a gameplay guy in here
.44

.44, i;'ve read through the above and noted some of the changes you suggested so they could be included in the new colours V15.
But i'll continue to refer to the above so that i ensure i get most of that in where possible.
Thanks

[captainwalrus]

ooh. I like the new colors, especialy the ocean.

[cairnswk]

ooh. I like the new colors, especialy the ocean.

Yeh i do also. i think it works well with the browns and yellows.

Are there any comments for the starting positions on land. I have some ideas, but i wanted to gain some input from you guys also?

[Teflon Kris]

Starting positions on land?

OK, I'm gonna need to work this one out - this is the kind of complex gamplay I like.

Tell me more - starting positions? What should I kniw>

In the first post it saysL

"Entente Starting Territories (16)
8 - Battleships
- start with high number and can bombard any marked target. They are killer reducing and should eventually fizzle out to complete neutrals
12 - Invasion Craft
4 invasion craft leading to minesweepers - can be bombarded from Turkish held land positions

Turkish Starting Territories (16)
3 Forts (10 Forts in total - 7 have to be manned/conquered)
13 Land positions"

The big question is what starts neutral (apologies if I'm being stupid here)? I'm guessing everything else is shared out/

[cairnswk]

Starting positions on land?

OK, I'm gonna need to work this one out - this is the kind of complex gamplay I like.

Tell me more - starting positions? What should I kniw>

In the first post it saysL

"Entente Starting Territories (16)
8 - Battleships
- start with high number and can bombard any marked target. They are killer reducing and should eventually fizzle out to complete neutrals
12 - Invasion Craft
4 invasion craft leading to minesweepers - can be bombarded from Turkish held land positions

Turkish Starting Territories (16)
3 Forts (10 Forts in total - 7 have to be manned/conquered)
13 Land positions"

The big question is what starts neutral (apologies if I'm being stupid here)? I'm guessing everything else is shared out/

Dang DJ. you beat me to it...i was in the final processes of trying to re-work this all out also, and had just finished placing all the possible starts and neutrals on the map and upadting the first page...

As of Version 16....
1. The number of territories currently on the map.

Entente Starting Territories (24)
8 - Battleships
- start with high number and can bombard any marked target. They are killer reducing and should eventually reduce to 1 (at this stage)
13 - Invasion Craft
3 Minesweepers

Turkish Starting Territories (16)
8 terrs on the east side of the Dardanelles (includes 2 Forts - represents the force that had to come from the Capital constantinople after the invasion started).
8 terrs on the western peninsula (includes 3 forts)

Other Territories (59)
3 Mines
3 (M) Mines sweepers
6 Land Terrs east of the Dardanelles (includes 1 landing beach)
44 Peninsula terrs west of the Dardanelles (includes 12 landing beaches)

Total Territories
99.

Anyway below is my idea for the starts.

Click image to enlarge.

[cairnswk]

Version 17.
Some changes underway....
1. I've reduced the forts on the Dardanelles to 8, and given them extra emphasis by the addition of the spotlights patrolling...
2. Added are the cliffs and terrains along the Dardanelles
3. I've started converting the mountains and ridges into bitmpa images for more realistic enhancment.

This version is also an export in CMYK, it's much darker than the previous RGB version, but i think more realistic towards the dawn darkness.

Click image to enlarge.

[Teflon Kris]

OK - this is just a first impression - without thinking potential moves and tactics in great depth:

I would anticipate that you may get the general comment that the starting positions need to be relatively fair for different numbers of players. You have battleships, landing craft and land starts for 8 players. With a different number of players - wouldn't the unused starts be shared-out amongst the players?

It would be great if the xml enabled different starts to be coded for different numbers of players. Its a change I would like to see + and would help many potential maps.

Anyway, let's stick with the 8-player scenario, assuming the above can be overcome (or I've got it wrong):

The battleships idea is totally innovative. I'm guessing they cant attack, only bombard. Brilliant.

3 of the landing craft have nightmare scenarios - attack mines and subject to bombardment from the forts.

Similarly, some of the land starts can be bombarded whilst others are safe - I'd suggest all land starts start safe and have an adjacent 'safe' territory to give players an early-game option to start building? Similarly, in the south of the map, the starts nearest crossing points are more advantageous. There look to be 13 - I'd suggest having 2 or 3 in the southern area - preferably 2 close to the landing points - those on the mainland I would suggest they are spaced apart from each other as much as possible and are relatively similar (i,e. not bombardable and away from the forts).

In general, as well as the battleships gameplay - I like the landing craft idea which is balanced by the land starts being away from the beaches.

I think the first thing to think about would be the landing craft in the straight.

I can feel in my bones that this is gonna be a winner

[whitestazn88]

hey cairns, its me here for the preliminary review. i have only touched upon this map once or twice, but i like the way it looks. and the gameplay looks awesome. both seem similar to pearl harbor, a personal favorite of mine, although i'm not very good at it lol. i would move this on but there are 2 things that i would change, although you obviously don't have to as the cartographer

-the left side of the map seems a little dim, and the territory names get a little hazy because of that, maybe brighten the territ names or the map overall on that side to make the contrast higher so we can find the names easier
- the beach territories, rather than having a smidgen of sand, should be completely white i think, that would make it really obvious and clear.

otherwise, it looks great. good work on another solid map mate.

[dolomite13]

What does L9 connect to? ... the line hits the border between B and C.

Can forts bombard all sea territs in both dardanels and narrows? or do some forts bombard one and some bombard the other? how is this defined? on the map?

Great Map =)

==D