The Jesus Freaks

[MeDeFe]

God: You've got free will, but you reject me and you're doomed you little pissant, now worship at my feet!

God: I offer myself unto you. Accept me, and we shall spend eternity together. You may choose to spend eternity without me, as much as it would grieve me. Know only that I love you and want to see you on the path to my arms.



I really don't see the big difference. You just put it in nicer words Ambrose.

[OnlyAmbrose]

God: You've got free will, but you reject me and you're doomed you little pissant, now worship at my feet!

God: I offer myself unto you. Accept me, and we shall spend eternity together. You may choose to spend eternity without me, as much as it would grieve me. Know only that I love you and want to see you on the path to my arms.



I really don't see the big difference. You just put it in nicer words Ambrose.

The difference is quite crucial. God doesn't choose to damn us to hell; it's OUR choice of where we go. If you accept the gift God is trying to give you, then you RECEIVE that gift. If you reject that gift, well, as much as it would trouble the Lord, he's not going to force you to accept it.

[MeDeFe]

So he lets us "chose" between him and and hell? I wouldn't call that a "choice".

[Mirak]

Ambrose apart from the elaborate play on words such as not everything is from God yet he created all...and your choice but make the wrong one and your damned....isn't everything pre-ordained by the all-mighty anyway?..hence if he does exist he seems to have a bit of a cruel streak to say the least..

[Aradhus]

God gave us (and the angels) free choice in whether or not to accept him. "Evil", boiled down to its essence, is the REJECTION of God and His ways- Satan rejected God of his own free will, which I guess could be the first evil. Adam and Eve rejected God's ways by disobeying Him, thus original sin greases the slippery slope of human evil.

"When the Lord saw how great was man's wickedness on earth... he regretted that he had made man on earth and his heart was grieved. So the Lord said: 'I will wipe out from the earth the men whom I have created... for I am sorry that I made them.' But Noah found favor with the Lord."

He's all about free will that God of yours. OK, ok, sometimes he's a bit inconsistent, but who are we to judge?!

[happysadfun]

Nobody noticed it on the clan forum, but the Jesus Freaks Journal-Sentinel is on the webbie now.

[Backglass]

He's all about free will that God of yours. OK, ok, sometimes he's a bit inconsistent, but who are we to judge?!

But he loves you. He loves you a lot. And he wants you to give him money.

[Knight of Orient]

Backglass, you said,

"I don't know what it is with the obsession with hell you two have (jay and HSF). YES it's a reality, and YES it is something to be avoided, but do you really want people to begin a relationship with God out of fear of hell?"





As much as it would be prefered they turn to Christ because you believe in him, rather than over fear of hell, if thats what it takes for you to be saved, then it will suffice

[happysadfun]

Backglass, you said,

"I don't know what it is with the obsession with hell you two have (jay and HSF). YES it's a reality, and YES it is something to be avoided, but do you really want people to begin a relationship with God out of fear of hell?"





As much as it would be prefered they turn to Christ because you believe in him, rather than over fear of hell, if thats what it takes for you to be saved, then it will suffice

I've been a Christian since five.

[jay_a2j]

Backglass, you said,

"I don't know what it is with the obsession with hell you two have (jay and HSF). YES it's a reality, and YES it is something to be avoided, but do you really want people to begin a relationship with God out of fear of hell?"





As much as it would be prefered they turn to Christ because you believe in him, rather than over fear of hell, if thats what it takes for you to be saved, then it will suffice

That wasn't backglass, it was OnlyAmbrose who said that.

[OnlyAmbrose]

Backglass, you said,

"I don't know what it is with the obsession with hell you two have (jay and HSF). YES it's a reality, and YES it is something to be avoided, but do you really want people to begin a relationship with God out of fear of hell?"





As much as it would be prefered they turn to Christ because you believe in him, rather than over fear of hell, if thats what it takes for you to be saved, then it will suffice

That wasn't backglass, it was OnlyAmbrose who said that.

And I hold firm to that statement. God doesn't force people to be saved. IT MUST be a conscious choice.

[vtmarik]

And I hold firm to that statement. God doesn't force people to be saved. IT MUST be a conscious choice.

Yes, it is a conscious choice, but it's a fake choice between glory and hell.

A real choice is "Do you want door 1 or door 2?" not "Eternal peace in heaven or eternal suffering in hell?"

Sure, God doesn't force us to make the choice, but He doesn't exactly give us much of a choice to begin with.

However, this is the Christian interpretation of God. If you haven't already figured it out, I don't subscribe to it.

A God of limitless power and love wouldn't need followers, nor would he need a place to punish those who "reject" Him. Yes, Lucifer does all the evil shit, but he was cast down to Hell by God.

Now, assuming that casting Lucifer from Heaven created Hell, why would God create Hell? It doesn't seem to serve any purpose other than psychodrama. Since He is all powerful, and all-knowing, why bother with the choice? Since He sees it all, why does He give us this life experiment to test us? He already knows the outcome and who's gonna go where.

Seems to be a massive waste of energy on His part, but then maybe He's like those people who enjoy playing The Sims.

[OnlyAmbrose]

Apparently, vtmarik, it's a VERY hard choice to make. Given the two options (eternal glory and eternal suffering) one would THINK it would be a no-brainer! But clearly it's not... because based on what I see many people are at this particular moment in time making the wrong choice.

The two choices are accept God and reject Him. Clearly, the people on this forum are quite divided on how to make this choice. So it would then follow that there IS a choice.

[Aradhus]

And I hold firm to that statement. God doesn't force people to be saved. IT MUST be a conscious choice.

Have you even read the bible?

I am God. I decree that Israelites are my special little people, and therefore to endure their specialness I will destroy their enemies. I will send my peoples enemies delusions(so that they can't be saved). I will mess with events on earth.

I'm an Israelite, old testament. God manipulates my enemies. God is creating a greater opportunity for me to be "saved". And he is making damn sure that my enemy cannot be saved.

[vtmarik]

Apparently, vtmarik, it's a VERY hard choice to make. Given the two options (eternal glory and eternal suffering) one would THINK it would be a no-brainer! But clearly it's not... because based on what I see many people are at this particular moment in time making the wrong choice.

The two choices are accept God and reject Him. Clearly, the people on this forum are quite divided on how to make this choice. So it would then follow that there IS a choice.

The human mind works on experience, if many haven't experienced Christ/Divinity than for those He doesn't exist and so therefore they aren't subject to His rules.

Now, while your opinions on this matter differ, remember that there are as many gods as there are people. What your Church says doesn't speak for all of mankind.

Choosing between Heaven and Hell isn't a choice. I'm not saying that "it's a no-brainer" I'm saying that it isn't a real choice.

I have a better analogy than the ones I cited earlier. "Heaven or Hell" is the same choice as "Cake or Death." One one hand you have soft, delicious cake and on the other you have death. Where I come from that's not a choice, it's coercion. It's manipulative, and I think that Jesus would smack the taste out of your mouth for repeating that trash (shortly after He returned and disbanded the Church since it follows its own desires rather than His).

[OnlyAmbrose]

And I hold firm to that statement. God doesn't force people to be saved. IT MUST be a conscious choice.

Have you even read the bible?

I am God. I decree that Israelites are my special little people, and therefore to endure their specialness I will destroy their enemies. I will send my peoples enemies delusions(so that they can't be saved). I will mess with events on earth.

I'm an Israelite, old testament. God manipulates my enemies. God is creating a greater opportunity for me to be "saved". And he is making damn sure that my enemy cannot be saved.

And lo, Christ died on the cross for us in the New Testament so that our transgressions need not be suffered by us. The enemies of God may now be saved! Hurrah! Only thing is you have to accept that salvation because God won't force it on you. So if you're an enemy of Christians (as Paul was before his conversion), you may still be saved if you begin loving God (as Paul did after his conversion).

Times have changed since the Old Testament. The laws haven't, but the punishment for our sins have been suffered by Christ. Now all you have to do is love Him. Living a good life, as stated by James, is how you show your love for Him. How can you love and trust someone and still blatantly disobey them?

And consider this- Christ died for all our transgressions- those we have committed and those still to come. Every sin we commit adds to the pain Christ suffered, the punishment which was ours but suffered by Him instead. If you love someone, you don't intentionally inflict pain upon them. So we live our lives as good as we can, and apologize when we go astray. For Christ has already borne the punishment. All that's left is to accept the gift He gave us... which many people tend not to do.

[OnlyAmbrose]

(continued)

Choosing between Heaven and Hell isn't a choice. I'm not saying that "it's a no-brainer" I'm saying that it isn't a real choice.

I have a better analogy than the ones I cited earlier. "Heaven or Hell" is the same choice as "Cake or Death." One one hand you have soft, delicious cake and on the other you have death. Where I come from that's not a choice, it's coercion. It's manipulative, and I think that Jesus would smack the taste out of your mouth for repeating that trash (shortly after He returned and disbanded the Church since it follows its own desires rather than His).

Sort of. To elaborate on your analogy:

To get that cake, you have to love the person who is baking it. Some people are unwilling to do that, and while the cake is in the oven they beat the baker, spit on him, and cause him a great deal of pain. They enjoy doing it while the cake is in the oven, but when it comes out they sadly realize that they cannot have the cake, because of their own choice to beat the baker.

in the metaphor, the cake is the kingdom of Heaven. The baker is Christ- every time we sin we add to the pain he had to suffer on the cross in order to serve the punishment which actually belongs to us. Though it may have been fun sinning (beating the baker), in the end you go cakeless because you obviously didn't truly love the poor baker. You can choose instead to be kind to the baker (live according to God's word), and when you do give into the temptation to hurt him, you apologize sincerely. When the cake is done, you will enjoy it, for you clearly loved the baker.

There is a clear choice. You may enjoy vain worldly pleasures (and thus beat the baker) and then go without the cake when it is finally complete, or you may abstain from such pleasures, live according to God's word, and apologize to the baker when you have beaten him. And the baker will accept your sincere apology even if he's been beaten bloody.

There is a choice, and it is very much like cake and death. But it is the pleasures which lead to death which make that path so tempting.

[MeDeFe]

Or how about this one, you're a child of, say, 6, and there's this HUGE guy who's baking a cake, you know he could rip your head off and put it in the cake and eat it himself if he felt like it, you don't know if he'll do it or not.
When the cake's finished he stands about 1 foot in front of you and tells you you have to eat the cake or he'll beat the shit out of you and put you in the oven.


When you preach about god's goodness and love you're going on hearsay, you have no idea whether he exists and what he actually is like if he does.

Of course this is all hypothesis. Just like everything else about god.




From the other thread I thought you'd try to be logical, maybe you should start with finding a firm point then.

[Paulicus]

When you preach about god's goodness and love you're going on hearsay, you have no idea whether he exists and what he actually is like if he does.

Of course this is all hypothesis. Just like everything else about god.

.

For some it is hearsay.. for true believers God is not a book that they worship.. They connect with God.. it is very hard to explain unless you have experienced it, and then it is easiest to comunicate it to other people who have. Someday it may not be just hearsay to you, believe what you will, but keep an open mind.

[MeDeFe]

I do, but so should you, too.

At least consider the possibility that it's all in your head, that you only THINK you connect to god. If a human can get well from believing he's getting medication I don't see a problem with "deceiving" oneself in that way, too.

[Knight of Orient]

hello, sry ive been gone recently

[freyme]

As a Christian, I agree with MeDeFe that Christians should keep open minds. As a Christian, it is important for me to be open to the understanding and realization of where non-christians are coming from. Because quite honestly, most Christians have been there before accepting Christ and it is easy for us to forget that we are all human and make mistakes, even once we are Christian. Just look at Pastor Ted Haggard in Colorado Springs, whom I knew, and thought/think very highly of. He made mistakes even though he is a Christian. Unfortunately for him, he did not admit his struggles until someone else pushed them out. I take for granted how easy it is to sin. I can be judgemental at times. I can talk to people about what I believe and what I believe they need to do in their lives, but I think I also must let everyone know that, first and foremost, I love and care for them as human beings that I believe God created with a purpose. He created us to worship him. It is true that if he is God, he could force everyone to worship Him, but because he loves us, He gave us the choice. He would rather have the few choose Him as opposed to many forced to and resenting it. It is a choice, and often times a choice by faith, which is being sure of something you cannot always see.

Some factual things:

Bible is the oldest existing book.
Recorded history, not religiosly biased history, backs up and verifies that many, many, many people and events in the Bible are accurate, including history of a man named Jesus who lives during the exact timeframe as recorded in the Bible.
Other religions even talk about the man Jesus of that time.
Evolution and other scientific theories(Big Bang) all at times make leaps that cannot or have not been proven by scientific fact, but are going by what people believe(notice use the word believe and not know) is the most plausible explanation, even though science is supposed to be strictly fact based.


At some point in time, every living person has to have a faith. Hopefully it is a faith in God. Otherwise where does your hope lie? By the very nature of the word faith, we are not always going to see what we believe.

I would love to sit down with anyone one on one and share what I believe and listen to what you believe. At the end I am not going to force anyone to agree with me. If at the end we agree to disagree so be it. I will truely feel bad if you have not chosen my faith, not becuase you are a lesser person, but because I feel that you would/are missing out on something truly amazing and life changing that I want every person to know about.

I say one on one, or in small groups, because that is easier for you and I to truly share beliefs with less anxiety about being singled out and criticized for what we believe. In large groups it is easy for minority opinions to feel attacked and for insecure(in their beliefs) people to react in a negative way that might have been different in a smaller more personal setting.

I want everyone to know that I have been a Christian for over 20 years, was raised in a Christian family, graduated from a Bible College, took religion classes and a public university with atheist professors, and I still make mistakes. I still sometimes do things that are against what I believe. Are there people that I would not want to choose to talk to? Yes, but that is not right. We are all born the same and I will sit down with anyone and try and get to know that person personally and do my very best not to make judgements. When I talk about things that I think are wrong it is about the action and not the person. Like I said, I have done many things and still do many things that are wrong. Christ still loves me. I strive to care about all people even if we have things that we disagree about.

I ramble on sometimes, but this is the first I have seen this thread.

[Backglass]

Bible is the oldest existing book.

<BUZZ!> Veda (sacred scriptures of Hinduism) were written 500 - 1000 BC. About the same time. Maybe yours were 2nd. Anyway...please back up your claim.

Recorded history, not religiosly biased history, backs up and verifies that many, many, many people and events in the Bible are accurate, including history of a man named Jesus who lives during the exact timeframe as recorded in the Bible.

No one doubts that a person named Jesus once existed. As for the rest, lets not be vague. Please tell us exactly what events you speak of and how these events are then proven in "non-religiously biased" recorded history.

Other religions even talk about the man Jesus of that time.

OK, but what does this prove? There are thousands of "Jesus", many even living today. I even know one!

Evolution and other scientific theories(Big Bang) all at times make leaps that cannot or have not been proven by scientific fact, but are going by what people believe(notice use the word believe and not know) is the most plausible explanation, even though science is supposed to be strictly fact based.

I will leave this one to my compadres. <pops popcorn for the show>

At some point in time, every living person has to have a faith.

Only the weak minded.

Otherwise where does your hope lie?

AND SO we come to the root. Some people MUST believe in something because they cannot imagine that this is all there is. Why are we here? What is our purpose? Etc.

Others realize that we just "are" and dont need any psychological crutches and fairy tales to help us sleep at night.

At the end I am not going to force anyone to agree with me.

Good. Please tell this to the zealots who want to force prayer in schools and place religious texts in PUBLIC places.

I will truely feel bad if you have not chosen my faith, not becuase you are a lesser person, but because I feel that you would/are missing out on something truly amazing and life changing that I want every person to know about.

Thanks. I feel truly bad that you will have gone through life with rose-colored glasses on, believing in your heart that fairy tales are true and magic is real.

I want everyone to know that I have been a Christian for over 20 years, was raised in a Christian family, graduated from a Bible College, took religion classes and a public university with atheist professors, and I still make mistakes.

Read what you have typed. Is it any wonder you are so thouroughly brainwashed? It started at birth. It is all you know. You have studied it your entire life. I, and many like me, have not...and so we have a MUCH different and open mind-set. It has not been beaten into our brains as "the truth and the way" since we could walk.

I strive to care about all people even if we have things that we disagree about.

As do the non-religious. This is a human trait.

I ramble on sometimes, but this is the first I have seen this thread.

Welcome!

[happysadfun]

Everyone has faith. You, backglass, have faith in the world, and science. The Bible vs. Modern Sci. Let's use Occam's Razor. The Bible is straightfoward. It requires one assumption- that there is a God. Science requires many assumptions, with hypotheses based on hypotheses that assume that this or that hypothesis is correct... Which is simpler? Which one requires the least assumptions? You tell me.

[MeDeFe]

Evolution and other scientific theories(Big Bang) all at times make leaps that cannot or have not been proven by scientific fact, but are going by what people believe(notice use the word believe and not know) is the most plausible explanation, even though science is supposed to be strictly fact based.

The keyword is "plausible", and science is fact based, you look at the facts you have and try to find a plausible explanation.
If there are several possible explanations (like e.g. why the galaxies don't break apart although there's too little matter to keep them together mathematically (I saw a program the other day)) that doesn't mean that they are made up because scientists "believe" differently, it means that different people have come up with different explanations.

Personal belief doesn't fit in there.



Believing is when you, for example, discuss whether gods name is Jehova or Jahwe or Allah or Elvis Presley.