Question for the Religious Types

Blastshot · Post by **Blastshot** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:58 pm

OnlyAmbrose wrote:AND HOLD ON A SECOND,

Catholic certainly do not believe that Protestants are going to Hell... that's a SORE misunderstanding of Catholic belief. Protestant baptisms are perfectly valid.

Um, pardon me for askin, but wuz a protestant...i never herd that b4. Yah i know im illitirite

The Kurgan · Post by **The Kurgan** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:59 pm

But don't Catholics beleive that if someone dies without confessing their sins then they will go to Hell?

OnlyAmbrose · Post by **OnlyAmbrose** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:00 pm

The Kurgan wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:AND HOLD ON A SECOND,

Catholic certainly do not believe that Protestants are going to Hell... that's a SORE misunderstanding of Catholic belief. Protestant baptisms are perfectly valid.
Really? <no sarcasm> That's weird, all the Catholics talk to tend to say that Protestants are going to Hell. Must be a weird church.

They are wrong. The Catechism is pretty clear in that Protestants are perfectly capable of attaining salvation.

Blastshot, Protestants are the Christians who split off from the Catholic Church in the late middle ages through the Renaissance.

OnlyAmbrose · Post by **OnlyAmbrose** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:01 pm

The Kurgan wrote:But don't Catholics beleive that if someone dies without confessing their sins then they will go to Hell?

The condition for going to Hell is that you must be consciously aware that you are offending God when you commit a grave act. Since Protestants are not consciously aware that Confession is necessary, they can't go to Hell for not doing it.

Huckleberryhound · Post by **Huckleberryhound** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:02 pm

Blastshot wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:AND HOLD ON A SECOND,

Catholic certainly do not believe that Protestants are going to Hell... that's a SORE misunderstanding of Catholic belief. Protestant baptisms are perfectly valid.
Um, pardon me for askin, but wuz a protestant...i never herd that b4. Yah i know im illitirite

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant

EvilPurpleMonkey · Post by **EvilPurpleMonkey** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:04 pm

Blastshot wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:AND HOLD ON A SECOND,

Catholic certainly do not believe that Protestants are going to Hell... that's a SORE misunderstanding of Catholic belief. Protestant baptisms are perfectly valid.
Um, pardon me for askin, but wuz a protestant...i never herd that b4. Yah i know im illitirite

LOL, there's almost a 50 percent chance your a protestant.

static_ice · Post by **static_ice** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:59 pm

OnlyAmbrose wrote:
The Kurgan wrote:But don't Catholics beleive that if someone dies without confessing their sins then they will go to Hell?
The condition for going to Hell is that you must be consciously aware that you are offending God when you commit a grave act. Since Protestants are not consciously aware that Confession is necessary, they can't go to Hell for not doing it.

wait but how does this apply to aetheists? are they consciously aware that they are offending God if they were to commit adultery even if they don't believe in God?

Skittles! · Post by **Skittles!** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:02 pm

EvilPurpleMonkey wrote:
Blastshot wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:AND HOLD ON A SECOND,

Catholic certainly do not believe that Protestants are going to Hell... that's a SORE misunderstanding of Catholic belief. Protestant baptisms are perfectly valid.
Um, pardon me for askin, but wuz a protestant...i never herd that b4. Yah i know im illitirite
LOL, there's almost a 50 percent chance your a protestant.

Why 50?

Blastshot · Post by **Blastshot** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:06 pm

EvilPurpleMonkey wrote:
Blastshot wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:AND HOLD ON A SECOND,

Catholic certainly do not believe that Protestants are going to Hell... that's a SORE misunderstanding of Catholic belief. Protestant baptisms are perfectly valid.
Um, pardon me for askin, but wuz a protestant...i never herd that b4. Yah i know im illitirite
LOL, there's almost a 50 percent chance your a protestant.

I think i am...lol
Methodist is one ight?

OnlyAmbrose · Post by **OnlyAmbrose** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:11 pm

static_ice wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:
The Kurgan wrote:But don't Catholics beleive that if someone dies without confessing their sins then they will go to Hell?
The condition for going to Hell is that you must be consciously aware that you are offending God when you commit a grave act. Since Protestants are not consciously aware that Confession is necessary, they can't go to Hell for not doing it.
wait but how does this apply to aetheists? are they consciously aware that they are offending God if they were to commit adultery even if they don't believe in God?

Atheists lack something called "Saving Grace". Belief in Christ and acceptance of Him as your savior gives you what Christians call saving grace. You need said grace in order to be saved.

Christians have that grace and, though it is lost in periods of grave sin, it may be reestablished through repentance. The proper manner of reinstating a state of grace is through confession. However, in certain circumstances, it is possible to reinstate that grace without confession. One of those circumstances occurs if you die before you are able to go to Confession, but intended to. The other is that you are not aware that confession is necessary, but are solemnly sorry for your sins.

Atheists just don't have that state of grace to begin with, and wouldn't be sorry to God for their sins even if they did, because they don't believe in God.

Hope that helps.

Skittles wrote:Why 50?

Not sure on the statistics, but I believe that roughly 50% of the world is orthodox and the other 50 is Protestant.

edit for blastshot- yes, methodist is a form of protestantism

static_ice · Post by **static_ice** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:14 pm

OnlyAmbrose wrote:
static_ice wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:
The Kurgan wrote:But don't Catholics beleive that if someone dies without confessing their sins then they will go to Hell?
The condition for going to Hell is that you must be consciously aware that you are offending God when you commit a grave act. Since Protestants are not consciously aware that Confession is necessary, they can't go to Hell for not doing it.
wait but how does this apply to aetheists? are they consciously aware that they are offending God if they were to commit adultery even if they don't believe in God?
Atheists lack something called "Saving Grace". Belief in Christ and acceptance of Him as your savior gives you what Christians call saving grace. You need said grace in order to be saved.

Christians have that grace and, though it is lost in periods of grave sin, it may be reestablished through repentance. The proper manner of reinstating a state of grace is through confession. However, in certain circumstances, it is possible to reinstate that grace without confession. One of those circumstances occurs if you die before you are able to go to Confession, but intended to. The other is that you are not aware that confession is necessary, but are solemnly sorry for your sins.

Atheists just don't have that state of grace to begin with, and wouldn't be sorry to God for their sins even if they did, because they don't believe in God.

Hope that helps.

interesting...

umanouski · Post by **umanouski** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:16 pm

is it true that all monothiestic cultures have the same god? Christians and muslims have the same god, just believe differently from each other? Or is it ONLY christianity?

static_ice · Post by **static_ice** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:19 pm

umanouski wrote:is it true that all monothiestic cultures have the same god? Christians and muslims have the same god, just believe differently from each other? Or is it ONLY christianity?

that's what I would think...

OnlyAmbrose · Post by **OnlyAmbrose** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:22 pm

umanouski wrote:is it true that all monothiestic cultures have the same god? Christians and muslims have the same god, just believe differently from each other? Or is it ONLY christianity?

I've never been totally sure how to explain this, but what it boils down to is point of view. Here's an example:

If I believe that George Washington was the founder of American and subsequently the first president of the united states, and you also believed he was the founder of America but then went on the practice medicine, do we believe in the same George Washington?

You could look at it either way.

In the end, though, I've never seen it as mattering too much...

static_ice · Post by **static_ice** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:23 pm

OnlyAmbrose wrote:
umanouski wrote:is it true that all monothiestic cultures have the same god? Christians and muslims have the same god, just believe differently from each other? Or is it ONLY christianity?
I've never been totally sure how to explain this, but what it boils down to is point of view. Here's an example:

If I believe that George Washington was the founder of American and subsequently the first president of the united states, and you also believed he was the founder of America but then went on the practice medicine, do we believe in the same George Washington?

You could look at it either way.

In the end, though, I've never seen it as mattering too much...

I guess you could change umanouski's question to saying: does everyone who believes in 1 God still go to heaven, assuming there is a heaven with 1 god?

Blastshot · Post by **Blastshot** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:23 pm

umanouski wrote:is it true that all monothiestic cultures have the same god? Christians and muslims have the same god, just believe differently from each other? Or is it ONLY christianity?

I believe that muslims and christians, and jews worship the same god, just in different ways and types of worship.

OnlyAmbrose · Post by **OnlyAmbrose** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:29 pm

static_ice wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:
umanouski wrote:is it true that all monothiestic cultures have the same god? Christians and muslims have the same god, just believe differently from each other? Or is it ONLY christianity?
I've never been totally sure how to explain this, but what it boils down to is point of view. Here's an example:

If I believe that George Washington was the founder of American and subsequently the first president of the united states, and you also believed he was the founder of America but then went on the practice medicine, do we believe in the same George Washington?

You could look at it either way.

In the end, though, I've never seen it as mattering too much...
I guess you could change umanouski's question to saying: does everyone who believes in 1 God still go to heaven, assuming there is a heaven with 1 god?

First of all, no, not everyone who believes in God goes to heaven. As James quite aptly says, even Satan believes in God, that doesn't mean you automatically get a one-way ticket to paradise.

But more to answering your question... that's a subject of much debate among Christians. The Catholic view is this:

You need saving grace to be saved. The only way to achieve saving grace is through Jesus.

If you were never sufficiently exposed to the Gospel, then God will have mercy on your soul. Examples of this include babies who die during abortions or shortly after birth, or people who inhabit backward lands where Christianity isn't known.

It is possible, so many Catholic theologians say, to have Christ within you without believing in Him. Any selfless act of goodness is a demonstration of the Holy Spirit within someone- no good can happen without God. As such, this is evidence that Christ is active within everyone, whether they know Him or not.

Acceptance of Christ is paramount to salvation. Can you accept Him without believing in Him? That's not really clear.

Like I said, this is a sticky subject of much debate among Christians. Ultimately, God is the judge.

d.gishman · Post by **d.gishman** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:54 pm

umanouski wrote:is it true that all monothiestic cultures have the same god? Christians and muslims have the same god, just believe differently from each other? Or is it ONLY christianity?

no, the christian god and the muslim god are not the same. different monotheistic religions don't mean that they worship the same god (zoroastrianism is also monotheistic)

EvilPurpleMonkey · Post by **EvilPurpleMonkey** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:00 pm

Skittles! wrote:
EvilPurpleMonkey wrote:
Blastshot wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:AND HOLD ON A SECOND,

Catholic certainly do not believe that Protestants are going to Hell... that's a SORE misunderstanding of Catholic belief. Protestant baptisms are perfectly valid.
Um, pardon me for askin, but wuz a protestant...i never herd that b4. Yah i know im illitirite
LOL, there's almost a 50 percent chance your a protestant.
Why 50?

Almost 50% of Americans are protestant, or perhaps I'm confusing statistics.

Edit: Just checked, it's 55%,

Huckleberryhound · Post by **Huckleberryhound** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:16 pm

d.gishman wrote:
umanouski wrote:is it true that all monothiestic cultures have the same god? Christians and muslims have the same god, just believe differently from each other? Or is it ONLY christianity?
no, the christian god and the muslim god are not the same. different monotheistic religions don't mean that they worship the same god (zoroastrianism is also monotheistic)

To say they don't worship they same god infers that there is more than one.

OnlyAmbrose · Post by **OnlyAmbrose** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:18 pm

Huckleberryhound wrote:
d.gishman wrote:
umanouski wrote:is it true that all monothiestic cultures have the same god? Christians and muslims have the same god, just believe differently from each other? Or is it ONLY christianity?
no, the christian god and the muslim god are not the same. different monotheistic religions don't mean that they worship the same god (zoroastrianism is also monotheistic)
To say they don't worship they same god infers that there is more than one.

Not necessarily. It infers that someone worships a false one.

Check out my George Washington example, then decide if we worship the same God. Honestly, I don't really have an opinion on the matter, it all boils down to point of view.

static_ice · Post by **static_ice** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:43 pm

whatever, everyone just live your life how you think you're supposed to live it and we'll see what happens when we all die

Huckleberryhound · Post by **Huckleberryhound** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:59 pm

OnlyAmbrose wrote:
Huckleberryhound wrote:
d.gishman wrote:
umanouski wrote:is it true that all monothiestic cultures have the same god? Christians and muslims have the same god, just believe differently from each other? Or is it ONLY christianity?
no, the christian god and the muslim god are not the same. different monotheistic religions don't mean that they worship the same god (zoroastrianism is also monotheistic)
To say they don't worship they same god infers that there is more than one.
Not necessarily. It infers that someone worships a false one.

Check out my George Washington example, then decide if we worship the same God. Honestly, I don't really have an opinion on the matter, it all boils down to point of view.

But if there's only one god, then that would mean that they are both worshipping the same one, just that the either have different perceptions about what god is, or different ideas on how to worship him/her. The sooner we as a people stop trying to bogus others beliefs, and start concentrating on being good people, the sooner the differences between us will stop being a hinderance.

I don't reaqlly have an opinion either, and i believe that it is a man's choice what he believes. The freedom to have that choice is the thing we should all strive for.

OnlyAmbrose · Post by **OnlyAmbrose** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:02 pm

Huckleberryhound wrote:But if there's only one god, then that would mean that they are both worshipping the same one, just that the either have different perceptions about what god is, or different ideas on how to worship him/her.

Like I said. Look at the George Washington example. You could look at it both ways.

Huckleberryhound wrote:The sooner we as a people stop trying to bogus others beliefs, and start consentrating on being good people, the sooner the differences between us will stop being a hinderance.

I don't recall bogusing anyone's beliefs in this thread.

And for all your incessant Catholic-bashing... Pope John Paul II went further than any religious leader in the history of Christianity in reaching out to people of the Islamic faith and various Protestant denominations.

Blastshot · Post by **Blastshot** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:06 pm

Huckleberryhound wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:
Huckleberryhound wrote:
d.gishman wrote:
umanouski wrote:is it true that all monothiestic cultures have the same god? Christians and muslims have the same god, just believe differently from each other? Or is it ONLY christianity?
no, the christian god and the muslim god are not the same. different monotheistic religions don't mean that they worship the same god (zoroastrianism is also monotheistic)
To say they don't worship they same god infers that there is more than one.
Not necessarily. It infers that someone worships a false one.

Check out my George Washington example, then decide if we worship the same God. Honestly, I don't really have an opinion on the matter, it all boils down to point of view.

But if there's only one god, then that would mean that they are both worshipping the same one, just that the either have different perceptions about what god is, or different ideas on how to worship him/her. The sooner we as a people stop trying to bogus others beliefs, and start concentrating on being good people, the sooner the differences between us will stop being a hinderance.

I don't reaqlly have an opinion either, and i believe that it is a man's choice what he believes. The freedom to have that choice is the thing we should all strive for.

Not necisarily. If there is just 1 god, it does not necisarily mean that they are worshipping the same god. one might be worshipping a god that they made.
Example: Say there is a Red God, if Reddists worshipped him as a monotheistic church, and Greenists worshipped Green God, but there was no green god so they just worship green god, not red.

Yes, thats what christains strive for