Iraq Statistics

[Frigidus]

Perhaps before talking out of their AIDS ridden arses, radiojake and co. would like to join the fucking t-owelhead-aleban, seeing as how they dissaprove of the US so much.

More ignorance and abuse from the self styled intelectual.

He sometimes manages to put half an argument together and then says things like that, it's very sad!

I just cannot tolerate the fact that someone's son is being mortared and shot at so radiojake can have his freedom, and he then calls him an evil murderer. It is just disgusting.

As for HC, other than repeatedly insult me, do you want to engage in civilized debate any time, or you just going to express your frustration on me

i didn't insult you, nappy, i merely expressed a benign opinion. Having read your views on race, gays, arabs, religion and now iraq, I have concluded that you are a little disturbed. That's all.

This isn't a civilized debate anyway (cf. your 'aids-ridden arseholes' post). No one is being shot at so australians can remain free. It was a ridiculous and over-emotive piece of nonsense from you, and I am calling you on it.

And as for the jingoists in this thread - there is your moral absolutism, nappy. Millions of americans indoctrinated into actually believing their country is the world's moral compass. This is why so many people there believe climate change is all a big scam, or that iraq is an example of pure altruism and nobility. It's just the way it is, that's all, and it is heart-wrenchingly sad for the rest of us.

I don't get how that works either. I wasn't raised to blindly trust our government, but some people seem to do just that. The only idea I can come up with is blaming the South. They're responsible for a lot of the crap our country is dealing with.

[muy_thaiguy]

Radiojake did some specific name-calling of his own against PhatJoey that you don't condemn. He called PhatJoey's son a chump and a glorified licensed-murderer. Then he later says that he doesn't consider that an insult.

Well, i stand my ground. Any soilders (or marines! sorry phatjoey!) in Iraq at the moment are chumps for righting a corrupt war. Last time I checked, I'm pretty sure soilders (and marines! sorry phatjoey!) have a license to kill. So wouldn't that mean they're a licensed murderer. It's pretty simple

I wouldn't call killing someone who is about to shoot you or blow up civilians, murder. Far from it. In war, it is kill or be killed. And in every war, there are going to be civilian causalties, intended or not, whether people like it or not.

Then he only focuses on the part of our history where we had slavery and totally ignores anything good we've done.

Well I felt inclined to rebut Phatjoey's stance that the US is great and righteous and 'the beacon of freedom and the hope of humanity' - So I pointed out the fact that the entire empire that is the US was built on the backs of slaves. - Pretty simple really, only bought it up to call out phatjoey

Slavery was abolished at the end of the Civil War, not to mention the whole slavery thing still takes place in places like the Middle East, China, and a few others as well.

For an encore we get some bullshit from Neutrino from high atop his self-righteous throne about extending help to the world. We give so much aid to the rest of the world it's ridiculous. I for one say we should be taking care of our own people.

I agree, so pull the troops out of Iraq and stop fucking with the Middle East (which is ironically just stirring up MORE anti-US and anti-western sentiment)

Also, the amount of aid 'donated' by the US is only fair, considering the amount of money American companies directly make off third world labour (you know, all those factories in Central America and Asia, paying 25cents and hour, but then selling the shoes for over $100.. massive mark up that.. lots of profit)

Really? Stop screwing with the Middle East? Didn't Britain have some territory there for awhile? And if we hadn't gone in there, people would be critisizing the US for NOT doing that.

So, we give money out to other places, and have been doing so for awhile now. Since around the end of WWII, when the US was forced into going head to head with the USSR, and thus the technology war began. Also, need I remind you radio, that before the "evil corperations" went over to places like China, they were worse off. Get over YOURself.

Neutrino & Radiojake - GFY

English please

Go F*ck Youselves. It is English, merely abreiveated.

Oh, and comic boy, who the hell are you calling a "trailer park reservist?"

Honestly, both sides in this debate are being overzealous in their stances and have resorted to name calling, some of which is not uncalled for, but nonetheless, there is bias (and quite heavily) coming from both sides in this thread. Meaning that there is flaw in both arguments (deal with it radio, the 60s ended when 1970 came.).

[bedub1]

This is why so many people there believe climate change is all a big scam

OMFG...you are a PAWN of Al Gore

[got tonkaed]

honestly for as much as Al Gore may or may not have done for climate change awarness, to assume that everyone who thinks climate change is occuring and probably is in some fashion part of human processes...is a bit absurd.

[bradleybadly]

Well, i stand my ground.

That's your problem, not ours.

[moo_lol]

Wow! What a great way for us to be spending our money! We don't have any use for it anyway...

[Neutrino]

Honestly, both sides in this debate are being overzealous in their stances and have resorted to name calling, some of which is not uncalled for, but nonetheless, there is bias (and quite heavily) coming from both sides in this thread. Meaning that there is flaw in both arguments (deal with it radio, the 60s ended when 1970 came.).

I haven't
Well, none that wern't thinly disguised with sarcasm, anyway.

[Napoleon Ier]

Perhaps before talking out of their AIDS ridden arses, radiojake and co. would like to join the fucking t-owelhead-aleban, seeing as how they dissaprove of the US so much.

More ignorance and abuse from the self styled intelectual.

He sometimes manages to put half an argument together and then says things like that, it's very sad!

I just cannot tolerate the fact that someone's son is being mortared and shot at so radiojake can have his freedom, and he then calls him an evil murderer. It is just disgusting.

As for HC, other than repeatedly insult me, do you want to engage in civilized debate any time, or you just going to express your frustration on me

i didn't insult you, nappy, i merely expressed a benign opinion. Having read your views on race, gays, arabs, religion and now iraq, I have concluded that you are a little disturbed. That's all.

This isn't a civilized debate anyway (cf. your 'aids-ridden arseholes' post). No one is being shot at so australians can remain free. It was a ridiculous and over-emotive piece of nonsense from you, and I am calling you on it.

And as for the jingoists in this thread - there is your moral absolutism, nappy. Millions of americans indoctrinated into actually believing their country is the world's moral compass. This is why so many people there believe climate change is all a big scam, or that iraq is an example of pure altruism and nobility. It's just the way it is, that's all, and it is heart-wrenchingly sad for the rest of us.

Radiojake and his punk friends have chosen to insult those putting their asses on the line so him and others can be free. He outright was rude and has decided to exclude himself for civilized debate. Your opinion of my views, when not insultingly expressed, does not however justify rude dissmissal of me.

[comic boy]

Arrogant French pratt !

[Napoleon Ier]

Arrogant1 French2 pratt3 !4

1/ No, claiming one is superior to the heroic US soldiers fighting the islamo-fasicst menace, and tactlessly so in front of someone related to uch a person who is probably under considerable stress now is arrogant.
2/ Racist now are we?
3/ Misspelt, and immature
4/ the expletive ending this, well, quasi-sentence signalls that it is to be read in a squealing high-pitched whine is it?

[PhatJoey]

The US is the beacon of freedom and hope for humanity??? You have got to be kidding me. Considering the US has built it's empire on the back of slaves (and continues to run on the back of third world labour) - It's only freedom if your white. (go ask some North American Indians what they think the USA stands for, and it is THEIR country after all)

No one said we have not made mistakes, just as Australians did with the aboriginals there. It is THEIR country after all.

Anyway, there is not a single race in the world that has not sold or bought people at some point in the past. So slavery is really a non-issue. Unless of course you are still practicing it. We are not.

As far as the Native Americans are concerned, first of all they are NOT Indians so please don't call them that. Indians are from India. It's a 400 year old mistake to call them that. Secondly, my family is part Native American and we celebrate both aspects of our heritage equally. And we really don't feel discriminated against at all. Yes there were crimes against our ancestors, but those who committed those crimes are long gone. And any anger or hatred we might feel as a result should be gone as well. We rise above it and live.

Oh and by the way, Australia imports goods from all over the third world and has its own share of farm labourers, so that means nothing also. The bottom line is that if those jobs weren't there those same people would be starving. It's certainly not the best situation, but we are working on it.

[PhatJoey]

It is not easy to teach an entire nation right from wrong and get them to stand up for themselves so that we can leave and return to the lives and families that were left behind.

Only just noticed this. So the US is a measuring stick for all that is right and wrong? What exactly are you going to 'teach' Iraq. I'm sure it'll involve another US backed leader to be put in charge. I'm sure we all remember Rumsfeild shaking Husseins hand in '84.

Interestingly enough no one remembers any Australian leader shaking any other leaders hand. Hmmm . . . I guess that means we might make mistakes but we still get involved instead of taking the easy way out.

[Neutrino]

Arrogant1 French2 pratt3 !4

1/ No, claiming one is superior to the heroic US soldiers fighting the islamo-fasicst menace, and tactlessly so in front of someone related to such a person who is probably under considerable stress now is arrogant.

Any illusions we had that you might vaguely try to avoid excessive bias just went out the window

If he wanted to debate a point he should have been prepared to meet people with alternate opinions.

Plus, I wasn't referring to his son specifically; my point was mainly directed at those hypocrits who think war is fine while murder is not.

3/ Misspelt, and immature

It's good you have never misspelt anything in your life or this statement might appear a tad hypocritical

4/ the expletive ending this, well, quasi-sentence signals that it is to be read in a squealing high-pitched whine is it?

It's an exclamation mark. I'm sure you, in all your many years of experience, have used them once or twice. If exclamation marks are whiney, then presumably you are just as whiney as he is.

[Neutrino]

Interestingly enough no one remembers any Australian leader shaking any other leaders hand.

An Australian leader who is fortunately no longer the Australian leader. Shows just how much support his tactics had with the Australian public.

[Neutrino]

No one said we have not made mistakes, just as Australians did with the aboriginals there. It is THEIR country after all.

Anyway, there is not a single race in the world that has not sold or bought people at some point in the past. So slavery is really a non-issue. Unless of course you are still practicing it. We are not.

As far as the Native Americans are concerned, first of all they are NOT Indians so please don't call them that. Indians are from India. It's a 400 year old mistake to call them that. Secondly, my family is part Native American and we celebrate both aspects of our heritage equally. And we really don't feel discriminated against at all. Yes there were crimes against our ancestors, but those who committed those crimes are long gone. And any anger or hatred we might feel as a result should be gone as well. We rise above it and live.

Oh and by the way, Australia imports goods from all over the third world and has its own share of farm labourers, so that means nothing also. The bottom line is that if those jobs weren't there those same people would be starving. It's certainly not the best situation, but we are working on it.

Interesting. All these points would be quite valid, were anyone here claiming that Australia is a pinacle of all that is just and good as you are doing with the US. If someone does that, feel free to bring up these arguments and (metaphorically) blast them into the ground.

EDIT: Interesting thought: before the Australian elections a few months ago, if you felt the US was the greatest nation in the world, then you would be logically compelled to also view Australia as equally godlike. Anything the US did Howard forced Australia to do not long after. To the best of my knowledge, the cultures were virtually identical, aside from a few very minor differences and some accents. In fact, Australia was better in some ways; public welfare and an economy which isn't propped up by a threat of military violence.
Sure, the systems of government were very slightly different (President v Prime Minister and all other minor differences this entails) but the kind of people who believe the US is the best tend not to care much for government anyway.

/badly thought out and quickly typed thought of the day.

[comic boy]

Arrogant1 French2 pratt3 !4

1/ No, claiming one is superior to the heroic US soldiers fighting the islamo-fasicst menace, and tactlessly so in front of someone related to uch a person who is probably under considerable stress now is arrogant.
2/ Racist now are we?
3/ Misspelt, and immature
4/ the expletive ending this, well, quasi-sentence signalls that it is to be read in a squealing high-pitched whine is it?

Boring arrogant French prat !

[radiojake]

No one said we have not made mistakes, just as Australians did with the aboriginals there. It is THEIR country after all.

I know that, and I am ashamed as a white Australian of the fact that this country as we know it was derived by mass genocide (of aboriginals) I don't deny that and have never said otherwise. Unlike yourself, I am not a patriot so insulting my country is not taken as a personal insult. My country does not represent me.

Anyway, there is not a single race in the world that has not sold or bought people at some point in the past.

So this makes in acceptable? Also, I don't think Native American's (ok they're not indians now? What are they known as?) or Australian aboriginals employed slavery, so there is 2 races right of the top of my head that didn't

So slavery is really a non-issue. Unless of course you are still practicing it. We are not.

But american (and others around the world ) are. Just because its not $0 an hour doesn't mean its not slavery. .24cents an hour is still slavery

Oh and by the way, Australia imports goods from all over the third world and has its own share of farm labourers, so that means nothing also.

I know, but again, I've never defended Australia and never claim that we are the 'beacon of humanity and freedom' -

The bottom line is that if those jobs weren't there those same people would be starving.

Bullshit. Convenient spin to make people think 'oh we can't do anything more anyway' Bullshit

If these people didn't have 24cent an hour jobs (which half the time includes armed gaurds making sure they work harder) they could be doing a lot more productive things like stealing food to eat. Or getting on boats and coming to a country that has a lot more to offer (seeing as these countries steal it from the third world anyway)

Do you know what, phatjoey (and naps is included in this now) - you thought I was insulting beforehand but i was merely just saying how it is. But i've had enough of all your patriotic rhetoric and bullshit nationalism. You are all fucking moron brainwashed racist xenophobic self serving arrogant f*ck wits.

Now this I can say that was just pathetic name calling, but i don't care. This is just a stupid internet message board where everyone already has their mind made up before heading into a 'debate' - Nothing on here is ever debated properly because of people's bias. And because, inevitably it doesn't matter what I say at all really (if you get offended, too bad)

If you are all alive still in 30+ years, and the entire world has gone to shit because we are all living an unsustainable lifestyle, just remember this little rant. We can't continue to drain the Earth and expect everything to be Ok. We're all fucked. And unless we DRASTICALLY change our lifestyles now (which wont happen, dont you love apathy?) we cant do shit about it. So in 30 odd years, when it does happen, remember that crazy left winger 'cactus' smoking hippy known as radiojake, and remember how I told you this shit would happen, and it's a direct result of our first world arrogance and refusal to accept responsibility for the fact that we have FUCKED this planet to make more money - and what good is money on a dead planet?

Im ranting more and more because Im drinking more. I dont care. As that other guy said earlier, (except i wont abbreviate it so that not only internet nerd lingo dorks understand)

Go f*ck yourselves. The world is fucked because people think like you - and people like you are reproducing cracker spawn retard kids, who also grow up and think like you... and join the army (sorry, marines)

[Iliad]

Guys why are you even bothering? The number one rule of debating on message boards is not to debate with religious fanatics and overzealous patriots

[heavycola]

Guys why are you even bothering? The number one rule of debating on message boards is not to debate with religious fanatics and overzealous patriots

But then there would be no debates on here at all

Nappy - you are seriously calling the war in iraq a war for freedom? That people are fighting so thankless liberals can 'be free'? That's bullshit. I gave you more credit than that.

[heavycola]

This is why so many people there believe climate change is all a big scam

OMFG...you are a PAWN of Al Gore

OMFG...occasionally on this forum, you read a post and you think, 'is that sarcasm? or are there people alive who are actually this completely and tragically stupid?'

[Snorri1234]

Slavery was abolished at the end of the Civil War, not to mention the whole slavery thing still takes place in places like the Middle East, China, and a few others as well.

And in teh US of A!

At least, there are still people sold as slaves pretty much everywhere on the globe. It's despicable and there should really be done something about it, but I don't believe it's actually condoned by any government anywhere. (Well there are probably a few...)

[PhatJoey]

So in 30 odd years, when it does happen, remember that crazy left winger 'cactus' smoking hippy known as radiojake, and remember how I told you this shit would happen, and it's a direct result of our first world arrogance and refusal to accept responsibility for the fact that we have FUCKED this planet to make more money - and what good is money on a dead planet?

radio who?

[BlackKnight01]

Christ, im back... Got accused of multi-ing and they banned my account (Baghdad) when it was false

oh well, so anyways...

Where to start...

Ah yes, let me start here:

The United States does go and will go to AMAZING lengths to achieve what they want- whether its slaughtering hundreds of thousands of innocent lives, or starving them to death- so be it as long as they achieve the goal...

Noam Chomsky, Hegemony or Survival: America's quest for Global Dominance says it all with evidence

"The United States to create an impression of Cuban Rashness and Responsibility placing the US in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances and developing an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere. Proposed measures included blowing up a US Ship in Guatemala Bay to create a "Remember the Maine" (Noam Chomsky, "Hegemony or Survival", 84)

They will slaughter hundreds of there own citizens just to have an excuse to invade a nation...

... now, you knowing that, do you really think the US would hesitate to kill thousands of their own civilians just to invade an entire region and wage war upon a religion? I think not

I have my doubts about 9/11, but I know im going to get stormed in a blaze of fury by most americans, which is understandable...

But think about it, and read...

Now, lets put that aside; As for Iraq:

Any man with half the sense of a goat would understand that the war against Iraq was not fought for the beautiful dark eyes of the Iraqi Children. After all, the Iraqi Regime was assisted and assembled by the United States of America.

but instead, it was fought for black gold and a strategic position to use against Iran, and if needed, against the surrounding nations

And as Noam Chomsky points out in his book:

"The target of preventive war must have several characteristics:

1. It must be virtually defenseless
2. It must be important enough to be worth the trouble
3. There must be a way to portray it as the ultimate evil and imminent threat to our survival" (Noam Chomsky, "Hegemony or Survival", 17)

Iraq qualified for the first two. The last one was created by the Bush administration when he professed that "Saddam had a hand in 9/11" and "Al- Qaida escaped to Iraq from Afghanistan" and somehow were capable of traveling over 4000 miles to reach Iraq of all the countries...

The American Citizens fell for it... and now, the American citizens are paying the price as the Bush Administration makes billions

[suggs]

but they did get rid of a ruthless murderer, so its not all bad.

[BlackKnight01]

but they did get rid of a ruthless murderer, so its not all bad.

That they supplied, armed, and put into Power, very true indeed...