Hillary Clinton

[Guiscard]

So, let's assume the fetus can feel pain: why not anesthetize them?

why not anesthetize a 3 yr old because he's inconveniencing the parents then use a suction pump to tear him limb from limb?

Because a three year old can be adopted and is already a living human being. A clump of cells inside the womb which cannot exist independently and cannot feel pain nor think for itself nor has any self awareness is not a human being.

[Neoteny]

So, let's assume the fetus can feel pain: why not anesthetize them?

why not anesthetize a 3 yr old because he's inconveniencing the parents then use a suction pump to tear him limb from limb?

I said anesthetize, not euthanize. We're back to the question of humanity, and a fetus does not compare to a 3 year-old.

[Heimdall]

You can't murder something that hasn't been born yet

[comic boy]

One thing to say about this abortion buisness here, that fetus isn't going to be anything other then a human being, whether you like it or not. Those babies have as much right to have a life as you or I do.

You could extend that to every sperm,should we ban masturbation and all contraception including withdrawal ? Effectively a line must be drawn and the people who draw that line are medical profesionals who are not in the business of murdering children. You have every right to personaly take a moral stance on abortion and nobody will ever force a member of your family to have one, you do not however have any right whatsoever to prevent others from exercising thier own free will. You have Irish connections I believe so you might want to read up about the thousands of young Catholic girls who were sent over to England to have abortions , the hypocrisy involved may well shock you.

Irish descent, yes. With some distant relatives that we keep in contact with. Call it what you want, but my beliefs are that abortion is killing innocent children, because what else would those fetuses ever be?

But you didnt answer my question,should we also ban masturbation etc etc and if not then why not. Im not having a go at your beliefs ,simply asking you to explain at what point a sperm becomes a child - because the medical experts disagree with you !

They dont though, quite clearly. there is a raging controversy. Why do you think Canada allows abortion at any point, France only to 12 weeks, UK to 24 (whilst a child has been born already at 20 weeks, therefore meaning UK law would treat its killing as entirely permissible).

I would settle for 12 weeks if that was the scientific concensus,would you ?

[Napoleon Ier]

One thing to say about this abortion buisness here, that fetus isn't going to be anything other then a human being, whether you like it or not. Those babies have as much right to have a life as you or I do.

You could extend that to every sperm,should we ban masturbation and all contraception including withdrawal ? Effectively a line must be drawn and the people who draw that line are medical profesionals who are not in the business of murdering children. You have every right to personaly take a moral stance on abortion and nobody will ever force a member of your family to have one, you do not however have any right whatsoever to prevent others from exercising thier own free will. You have Irish connections I believe so you might want to read up about the thousands of young Catholic girls who were sent over to England to have abortions , the hypocrisy involved may well shock you.

Irish descent, yes. With some distant relatives that we keep in contact with. Call it what you want, but my beliefs are that abortion is killing innocent children, because what else would those fetuses ever be?

But you didnt answer my question,should we also ban masturbation etc etc and if not then why not. Im not having a go at your beliefs ,simply asking you to explain at what point a sperm becomes a child - because the medical experts disagree with you !

They dont though, quite clearly. there is a raging controversy. Why do you think Canada allows abortion at any point, France only to 12 weeks, UK to 24 (whilst a child has been born already at 20 weeks, therefore meaning UK law would treat its killing as entirely permissible).

I would settle for 12 weeks if that was the scientific concensus,would you ?

no.

[Dancing Mustard]

why not anesthetize a 3 yr old because he's inconveniencing the parents then use a suction pump to tear him limb from limb?

Whyever not?

[Frigidus]

I would settle for 12 weeks if that was the scientific concensus,would you ?

no.

Man, 1 week can do you wonders.

[Napoleon Ier]

A general answer to Guiscard Frigidus etc

The foetus is not simply a collectionof cells. Ultimatly what are you? What is it you consider to be alive? Is a person unable to conceptualize because they suffer brain-damage not human?

The answer is simply that our place is not to fiddle with arbitary dates and say life begins, oh around 24,20, well...12, 40 weeks.....
No. Human life deserves far more respect. A fertilized cell conatins all the gnetic material for a human, and creats one. To prevent that, is,effectively, homicide. It is then obvious beyond 5-6 weeks that the foetus anthropomorphs and has a cerebral cortex. To take it part limb from limb or horribly burn it alive with chemicals is abhorrnt. I take refuge in the fact one day, abortionists will be seen in the same light as those who comnsidered the negro or the jew not to be human.

[Napoleon Ier]

Frigidus, the images are not to scale. Also the corpse in the first one is mangled. Just google 12 week foetus and you'll find I have chosen a perfectly objective link. You're clutching at straws to defend brutal murder. Its pathetic

[Frigidus]

I take refuge in the fact one day, abortionists will be seen in the same light as those who comnsidered the negro or the jew not to be human.

Considering that the world at large (outside of America) is becoming more and more liberal with this sort of thing, the odds of that are slim.

[Frigidus]

What is it you consider to be alive? Is a person unable to conceptualize because they suffer brain-damage not human?

Yes. If it can't think or feel pain it isn't alive. Animals have more of a right to life than a fetus considering that they can survive on their own, feel pain, recognize objects, and generally don't ruin people's lives.

[Napoleon Ier]

I take refuge in the fact one day, abortionists will be seen in the same light as those who comnsidered the negro or the jew not to be human.

Considering that the world at large (outside of America) is becoming more and more liberal with this sort of thing, the odds of that are slim.

Answer on the real substance. Dont hide from what you know is wrong. Besides, I hardly think that the wrold is going to continue in this leftist trend (what is it with americans and terminologically using "liberal" completely wrongly). The war against islam is goingto happen, people will have to face reality then

[Frigidus]

Answer on the real substance. Dont hide from what you know is wrong. Besides, I hardly think that the wrold is going to continue in this leftist trend (what is it with americans and terminologically using "liberal" completely wrongly). The war against islam is goingto happen, people will have to face reality then

Whoa, whoa, WHOA! War against Islam? What?! Nobody wants that at all, Outside of the religious kooks on either side that is. Also, sorry about the liberal thing, doesn't imply anything on this side of the globe. I'll use left from now on.

[Napoleon Ier]

Answer on the real substance. Dont hide from what you know is wrong. Besides, I hardly think that the wrold is going to continue in this leftist trend (what is it with americans and terminologically using "liberal" completely wrongly). The war against islam is goingto happen, people will have to face reality then

Whoa, whoa, WHOA! War against Islam? What?! Nobody wants that at all, Outside of the religious kooks on either side that is. Also, sorry about the liberal thing, doesn't imply anything on this side of the globe. I'll use left from now on.

yeh ok. lets not detract he issue. thats for another topic, someday

[Chris7He]

is a commie. Female reincarnation of Stalin. Why the heck are so many women supporting her? know that usually it's cuz she a women. COME ON PEOPLE!!! you've got to have a better reason.

Republicans still want her and expect her to win, because she's the closest thing to a Republican president.

[Neutrino]

is a commie. Female reincarnation of Stalin. Why the heck are so many women supporting her? know that usually it's cuz she a women. COME ON PEOPLE!!! you've got to have a better reason.

Republicans still want her and expect her to win, because she's the closest thing to a Republican president.

Except for the fact that, you know, the Republicans have their own candidates?

[muy_thaiguy]

is a commie. Female reincarnation of Stalin. Why the heck are so many women supporting her? know that usually it's cuz she a women. COME ON PEOPLE!!! you've got to have a better reason.

Republicans still want her and expect her to win, because she's the closest thing to a Republican president.

Okay, time for you to get off the drugs little boy.

[Napoleon Ier]

is a commie. Female reincarnation of Stalin. Why the heck are so many women supporting her? know that usually it's cuz she a women. COME ON PEOPLE!!! you've got to have a better reason.

Republicans still want her and expect her to win, because she's the closest thing to a Republican president.

Okay, time for you to get off the drugs little boy.

[Chris7He]

is a commie. Female reincarnation of Stalin. Why the heck are so many women supporting her? know that usually it's cuz she a women. COME ON PEOPLE!!! you've got to have a better reason.

Republicans still want her and expect her to win, because she's the closest thing to a Republican president.

Except for the fact that, you know, the Republicans have their own candidates?

I wrote that too fast. I meant the Democratic primaries.

[Mr_Adams]

I take refuge in the fact one day, abortionists will be seen in the same light as those who comnsidered the negro or the jew not to be human.

Considering that the world at large (outside of America) is becoming more and more liberal with this sort of thing, the odds of that are slim.

Answer on the real substance. Dont hide from what you know is wrong. Besides, I hardly think that the wrold is going to continue in this leftist trend (what is it with americans and terminologically using "liberal" completely wrongly). The war against islam is goingto happen, people will have to face reality then

As an answer to the question in parenthesis, the leftests have given themselves that title, and it caught on. Then it took bad pretexts because of it... sorry, I will use "left" on the nets from now on

[Snorri1234]

I take refuge in the fact one day, abortionists will be seen in the same light as those who comnsidered the negro or the jew not to be human.

Considering that the world at large (outside of America) is becoming more and more liberal with this sort of thing, the odds of that are slim.

Answer on the real substance. Dont hide from what you know is wrong. Besides, I hardly think that the wrold is going to continue in this leftist trend (what is it with americans and terminologically using "liberal" completely wrongly). The war against islam is goingto happen, people will have to face reality then

No you answer the fucking question that has been asked multiple times. Selectively picking the posts you want to answer isn't going to do you any good. Do you also consider killing an animal wrong? Because they can feel pain and react to their environment and stuff like that.
A fetus simply can't think after 12 weeks. They have a little bit of brain that doesn't even function then, but is just being developed a little so the fetus can eventually grow to become a human. It is not a human being yet.

[radiojake]

What is it you consider to be alive? Is a person unable to conceptualize because they suffer brain-damage not human?

Yes. If it can't think or feel pain it isn't alive. Animals have more of a right to life than a fetus considering that they can survive on their own, feel pain, recognize objects, and generally don't ruin people's lives.

Ha, on this same topic I might throw in something that you'll really hate

Ever heard of Peter Singer? (animal rights activist amoungst other things)

Well he's come out and said that a cow, pig, chicken, any non-human animal that is alive, healthy and a sentient being has more right to life than a human who is so severly disabled that they no longer have their own free will to survive (or who never had)

Now, (and this is where he gets taken out of context) he isn't saying that ALL disabled people are in this category, just merely people who are either vegetables or who will forever need 24 hour constant care. The ones who don't actually know they are alive, as such. It's a good point, I think. Why should these people be granted the 'right of life' when they can't even do anything about it, yet non-human animals are systematically killed for our convenience.

Aborted fetuses are exactly that. Fetuses. Not babies, not children, not people.

Do you eat veal, napoleon? You like the little baby calf taken away from it's mother to be carved up for us all, and then the Cow is left with an udder full of milk which is then farmed again, for our convenience.

[Snorri1234]

Now, (and this is where he gets taken out of context) he isn't saying that ALL disabled people are in this category, just merely people who are either vegetables or who will forever need 24 hour constant care. The ones who don't actually know they are alive, as such. It's a good point, I think. Why should these people be granted the 'right of life' when they can't even do anything about it, yet non-human animals are systematically killed for our convenience.

Yeah, this is why in my country we generally let people get taken off life-support after some time. The family is asked first about it and when they've been informed of everything they can decide on it.

[muy_thaiguy]

What is it you consider to be alive? Is a person unable to conceptualize because they suffer brain-damage not human?

Yes. If it can't think or feel pain it isn't alive. Animals have more of a right to life than a fetus considering that they can survive on their own, feel pain, recognize objects, and generally don't ruin people's lives.

Ha, on this same topic I might throw in something that you'll really hate

Ever heard of Peter Singer? (animal rights activist amoungst other things)

Well he's come out and said that a cow, pig, chicken, any non-human animal that is alive, healthy and a sentient being has more right to life than a human who is so severly disabled that they no longer have their own free will to survive (or who never had)

Now, (and this is where he gets taken out of context) he isn't saying that ALL disabled people are in this category, just merely people who are either vegetables or who will forever need 24 hour constant care. The ones who don't actually know they are alive, as such. It's a good point, I think. Why should these people be granted the 'right of life' when they can't even do anything about it, yet non-human animals are systematically killed for our convenience.

Aborted fetuses are exactly that. Fetuses. Not babies, not children, not people.

Do you eat veal, napoleon? You like the little baby calf taken away from it's mother to be carved up for us all, and then the Cow is left with an udder full of milk which is then farmed again, for our convenience.

I wouldn't exactly call a cow, pig, or a chicken sentient. The pig would probably the closest, but I would not call farm animals sentient.

As for the fetus, what else will it be other then a baby? Unless of course, you decide to kill it.

Also, cows are raised for people to eat, they have been for thousands of years. Except for the Hindus and possibly the Native Americans, people and cultures world wide have breed cattle for this, also, for their milk. And comparing a cow to a human just doesn't cut it for those of us that do not consider livestock to be sentient species.

[Frigidus]

What is it you consider to be alive? Is a person unable to conceptualize because they suffer brain-damage not human?

Yes. If it can't think or feel pain it isn't alive. Animals have more of a right to life than a fetus considering that they can survive on their own, feel pain, recognize objects, and generally don't ruin people's lives.

Ha, on this same topic I might throw in something that you'll really hate

Ever heard of Peter Singer? (animal rights activist amoungst other things)

Well he's come out and said that a cow, pig, chicken, any non-human animal that is alive, healthy and a sentient being has more right to life than a human who is so severly disabled that they no longer have their own free will to survive (or who never had)

Now, (and this is where he gets taken out of context) he isn't saying that ALL disabled people are in this category, just merely people who are either vegetables or who will forever need 24 hour constant care. The ones who don't actually know they are alive, as such. It's a good point, I think. Why should these people be granted the 'right of life' when they can't even do anything about it, yet non-human animals are systematically killed for our convenience.

Aborted fetuses are exactly that. Fetuses. Not babies, not children, not people.

Do you eat veal, napoleon? You like the little baby calf taken away from it's mother to be carved up for us all, and then the Cow is left with an udder full of milk which is then farmed again, for our convenience.

I wouldn't exactly call a cow, pig, or a chicken sentient. The pig would probably the closest, but I would not call farm animals sentient.

As for the fetus, what else will it be other then a baby? Unless of course, you decide to kill it.

Also, cows are raised for people to eat, they have been for thousands of years. Except for the Hindus and possibly the Native Americans, people and cultures world wide have breed cattle for this, also, for their milk. And comparing a cow to a human just doesn't cut it for those of us that do not consider livestock to be sentient species.

Are fetus' sentient? They have the capability of being sentient, just as the brain damaged have the capability of being sentient. The fact is the fetus doesn't even use its brain.