Jesus Freaks...why do you believe?

OnlyAmbrose · Post by **OnlyAmbrose** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:54 pm

This is absolutely ridiculous.

For ten solid pages, this thread was one of the best philosophical discussions I've ever had here in the Clubhouse.

Now it's no better than the garbage people post in flamewars.

Christians, how's about we stop trying to prove how hated we are? In doing so, we're just stirring up more hate, on BOTH sides, and is that really noble?

If we ARE being persecuted (which I don't admit), well that's just great! Jesus said that we would be and that our reward in heaven would be all the greater for it. So instead of inciting hatred in an otherwise COMPLETELY CIVIL thread, let's move along either to a more civil line of conversation, free of accusation of who hates who, or just cool off for awhile.

CrazyAnglican · Post by **CrazyAnglican** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:59 pm

OnlyAmbrose wrote:This is absolutely ridiculous.

For then solid pages, this thread was one of the best philosophical discussions I've ever had here in the Clubhouse.

Now it's no better than the garbage people post in flamewars.

Christians, how's about we stop trying to prove how hated we are? In doing so, we're just stirring up more hate, on BOTH sides, and is that really noble?

If we ARE being persecuted (which I don't admit), well that's just great! Jesus said that we would be and that our reward in heaven would be all the greater for it. So instead of inciting hatred in an otherwise COMPLETELY CIVIL thread, let's move along either to a more civil line of conversation, free of accusation of who hates who, or just cool off for awhile.

QFT

GreecePwns · Post by **GreecePwns** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:02 pm

CrazyAnglican wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:This is absolutely ridiculous.

For then solid pages, this thread was one of the best philosophical discussions I've ever had here in the Clubhouse.

Now it's no better than the garbage people post in flamewars.

Christians, how's about we stop trying to prove how hated we are? In doing so, we're just stirring up more hate, on BOTH sides, and is that really noble?

If we ARE being persecuted (which I don't admit), well that's just great! Jesus said that we would be and that our reward in heaven would be all the greater for it. So instead of inciting hatred in an otherwise COMPLETELY CIVIL thread, let's move along either to a more civil line of conversation, free of accusation of who hates who, or just cool off for awhile.
QFT

Same here...i just thought the names going at each other were a bit ironic. In no way was I condoning anything. But I will admit, vtmarik and I did go a bit off track.

got tonkaed · Post by **got tonkaed** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:09 pm

OnlyAmbrose wrote:This is absolutely ridiculous.

For ten solid pages, this thread was one of the best philosophical discussions I've ever had here in the Clubhouse.

Now it's no better than the garbage people post in flamewars.

Christians, how's about we stop trying to prove how hated we are? In doing so, we're just stirring up more hate, on BOTH sides, and is that really noble?

If we ARE being persecuted (which I don't admit), well that's just great! Jesus said that we would be and that our reward in heaven would be all the greater for it. So instead of inciting hatred in an otherwise COMPLETELY CIVIL thread, let's move along either to a more civil line of conversation, free of accusation of who hates who, or just cool off for awhile.

honestly if every religious thread turns into back and forth bashing like it has been here, there is no point for any of the J.F. to discuss these issues in the public forum. Frankly if coffee is interested in looking at the bible closely, he should be able to get the counsel from the J.F.. Im all for some casual back and forth, but we have totally lost any of the intent of this thread.

Best wishes in your searching, Coffee, may you find whatever it is you are seeking.

CoffeeCream · Post by **CoffeeCream** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:37 am

I decided to step up my reading a little bit and include the Proverbs. Some of them are hilarious. I'm also talking to some Muslims online at a different website. Very respectful and interesting comments. I think I'll read some of the Koran when I'm done with Bible reading.

unriggable · Post by **unriggable** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:25 am

CoffeeCream wrote:I decided to step up my reading a little bit and include the Proverbs. Some of them are hilarious. I'm also talking to some Muslims online at a different website. Very respectful and interesting comments. I think I'll read some of the Koran when I'm done with Bible reading.

You can't really read the bible. It's like reading the dictionary.

vtmarik · Post by **vtmarik** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:11 am

CoffeeCream wrote:I decided to step up my reading a little bit and include the Proverbs. Some of them are hilarious. I'm also talking to some Muslims online at a different website. Very respectful and interesting comments. I think I'll read some of the Koran when I'm done with Bible reading.

Beautiful poetry, both books.

Read the Tanakh too, or if your into some really heady religious reading read some Crowley.

MR. Nate · Post by **MR. Nate** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:45 pm

Sorted through the flames and flotsam, and found a few things I wanted to answer.

vtmarik wrote: Can you read Hebrew or Greek? Can the average Christian?

Since this document is infallible, each English translation should be the same thing. If it isn't, then why do we keep releasing new translations?

Which translation is the right translation? Why should we trust that assessment?

Most Christians don't like the word infallible, because it communicates the wrong idea. Inerrancy is the preferred term. Infallible runs into a lot of the problems you mention, inerrant doesn't. Also, the absolute inerrancy is only defendable in the autographa. Translators attempt to remain as true to that as they can.

unriggable wrote:You can't really read the bible. It's like reading the dictionary.

Clearly someone who has actually read it.

vtmarik wrote:Read the Tanakh too, or if your into some really heady religious reading read some Crowley.

The Tanakh is the same as the OT, different organization, different names for the books, same text. Did you mean Talumud?

Snorri1234 · Post by **Snorri1234** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:53 pm

MR. Nate wrote:Sorted through the flames and flotsam, and found a few things I wanted to answer.

vtmarik wrote: Can you read Hebrew or Greek? Can the average Christian?

Since this document is infallible, each English translation should be the same thing. If it isn't, then why do we keep releasing new translations?

Which translation is the right translation? Why should we trust that assessment?
Most Christians don't like the word infallible, because it communicates the wrong idea. Inerrancy is the preferred term. Infallible runs into a lot of the problems you mention, inerrant doesn't. Also, the absolute inerrancy is only defendable in the autographa. Translators attempt to remain as true to that as they can.

Indeed, infallible means that it is entirely correct on faith and practice, but that the history doesn't have to be correct. (I.e. god is the only god and jesus is his son, but that doesn't mean history and the science in the bible are free from flaws.)
Inerrancy means it's totally true and when real life contradicts the bible it is plainly real life who's got it wrong.

vtmarik · Post by **vtmarik** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:54 pm

MR. Nate wrote:
vtmarik wrote:Read the Tanakh too, or if your into some really heady religious reading read some Crowley.
The Tanakh is the same as the OT, different organization, different names for the books, same text. Did you mean Talumud?

Right Talmud, sorry, It's been a bit since my Comparative religion class.

MR. Nate · Post by **MR. Nate** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:07 pm

Snorri, perhaps if you really want to what evangelicals believe on the subject, you could look up the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy

Snorri1234 · Post by **Snorri1234** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:11 pm

MR. Nate wrote:Snorri, perhaps if you really want to what evangelicals believe on the subject, you could look up the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy

I did. It basically says the bible is never wrong. Ever.

vtmarik · Post by **vtmarik** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:59 pm

Snorri1234 wrote:
MR. Nate wrote:Snorri, perhaps if you really want to what evangelicals believe on the subject, you could look up the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy
I did. It basically says the bible is never wrong. Ever.

Yep, and where it is wrong it is in fact reality that is in error.

For example, the statement about how the sun stopped in the middle of the sky. You see, we really do live in a geocentric universe and it is reality that is wrong here.

I could bring in a poet who can argue that beauty is truth, truth is beauty and that life itself is in error for being neither beautiful nor true.

Snorri1234 · Post by **Snorri1234** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:00 pm

vtmarik wrote:
Snorri1234 wrote:
MR. Nate wrote:Snorri, perhaps if you really want to what evangelicals believe on the subject, you could look up the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy
I did. It basically says the bible is never wrong. Ever.
Yep, and where it is wrong it is in fact reality that is in error.

For example, the statement about how the sun stopped in the middle of the sky. You see, we really do live in a geocentric universe and it is reality that is wrong here.

I could bring in a poet who can argue that beauty is truth, truth is beauty and that life itself is in error for being neither beautiful nor true.

Life was then duly confiscated from everyone in the room.

Skittles! · Post by **Skittles!** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:51 pm

DangerBoy wrote:Live & let live???? I'm so sure with you.

From the words of my friend -
"Live and let live? That's exactly what Christians did, they burnt everyone!"

silvanricky · Post by **silvanricky** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:58 pm

Skittles! wrote:
DangerBoy wrote:Live & let live???? I'm so sure with you.
From the words of my friend -
"Live and let live? That's exactly what Christians did, they burnt everyone!"

Really? I was taught in school that it was Christians who were burned during the days of the Roman Empire. I'm sure that just about every group of people in the world has been oppressed at one time or another.

I wish people would quit oppressing my armies in all my games.

got tonkaed · Post by **got tonkaed** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:00 pm

silvanricky wrote:
Skittles! wrote:
DangerBoy wrote:Live & let live???? I'm so sure with you.
From the words of my friend -
"Live and let live? That's exactly what Christians did, they burnt everyone!"

Really? I was taught in school that it was Christians who were burned during the days of the Roman Empire. I'm sure that just about every group of people in the world has been oppressed at one time or another.

I wish people would quit oppressing my armies in all my games.

interestingly, there was a fair amount of christian history after the roman period, some of it, which in fact some pretty egregious acts were done by christians to those who did not believe, or did not believe enough in some cases.

Skittles! · Post by **Skittles!** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:17 am

silvanricky wrote:
Skittles! wrote:
DangerBoy wrote:Live & let live???? I'm so sure with you.
From the words of my friend -
"Live and let live? That's exactly what Christians did, they burnt everyone!"

Really? I was taught in school that it was Christians who were burned during the days of the Roman Empire. I'm sure that just about every group of people in the world has been oppressed at one time or another.

More being oppressed via the Christians in ages past than other types of people, I must say.

But that's a totally different thread.

The1exile · Post by **The1exile** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:52 am

Snorri1234 wrote:
vtmarik wrote:
Snorri1234 wrote:
MR. Nate wrote:Snorri, perhaps if you really want to what evangelicals believe on the subject, you could look up the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy
I did. It basically says the bible is never wrong. Ever.
Yep, and where it is wrong it is in fact reality that is in error.

For example, the statement about how the sun stopped in the middle of the sky. You see, we really do live in a geocentric universe and it is reality that is wrong here.

I could bring in a poet who can argue that beauty is truth, truth is beauty and that life itself is in error for being neither beautiful nor true.
Life was then duly confiscated from everyone in the room.

anyone up for a game of galactic mega golf?

MR. Nate · Post by **MR. Nate** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:14 am

vtmarik wrote:For example, the statement about how the sun stopped in the middle of the sky. You see, we really do live in a geocentric universe and it is reality that is wrong here.

The sun stopping in the sky does not equal a geocentric universe, it just means a stop in the earth's rotation for a few hours.

And before you all pile on and say "That's impossible" remember that you only reject miracles because you reject God. If you allow for the possibility of a supremely powerful creator, little changes like hitting pause on the earth's rotation become obviously simplistic.

unriggable · Post by **unriggable** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:16 am

MR. Nate wrote:
vtmarik wrote:For example, the statement about how the sun stopped in the middle of the sky. You see, we really do live in a geocentric universe and it is reality that is wrong here.
The sun stopping in the sky does not equal a geocentric universe, it just means a stop in the earth's rotation for a few hours.

And before you all pile on and say "That's impossible" remember that you only reject miracles because you reject God. If you allow for the possibility of a supremely powerful creator, little changes like hitting pause on the earth's rotation become obviously simplistic.

If the earth stopped spinning then all the animals would be screwed up (time-wise I mean), maybe even leaving a mini - mass extinction. Not to mention that it is physically impossible to do.

GreecePwns · Post by **GreecePwns** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:22 am

unriggable wrote:
MR. Nate wrote:
vtmarik wrote:For example, the statement about how the sun stopped in the middle of the sky. You see, we really do live in a geocentric universe and it is reality that is wrong here.
The sun stopping in the sky does not equal a geocentric universe, it just means a stop in the earth's rotation for a few hours.

And before you all pile on and say "That's impossible" remember that you only reject miracles because you reject God. If you allow for the possibility of a supremely powerful creator, little changes like hitting pause on the earth's rotation become obviously simplistic.
If the earth stopped spinning then all the animals would be screwed up (time-wise I mean), maybe even leaving a mini - mass extinction. Not to mention that it is physically impossible to do.

Did you read the bold part, unriggable?

Snorri1234 · Post by **Snorri1234** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:27 am

MR. Nate wrote:
And before you all pile on and say "That's impossible" remember that you only reject miracles because you reject God. If you allow for the possibility of a supremely powerful creator, little changes like hitting pause on the earth's rotation become obviously simplistic.

And here lies the whole key. God has the ability to do anything he wants, so why are people arguing against evolution with claiming it's based on false assumptions and facts when they could just say that God made it that way to test our faith?

b.k. barunt · Post by **b.k. barunt** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:57 pm

Hmm, that's a new one to me - didn't know Christianity was based on "fate". Brilliant! Oh, i see (now that you've edited it) faith. Thank God for dictionaries eh snorri?

Honibaz

yodermk · Post by **yodermk** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:24 am

MR. Nate wrote: The sun stopping in the sky does not equal a geocentric universe, it just means a stop in the earth's rotation for a few hours.

Although that is possible, my favorite explanation for that passage is a bit different.

I think God "forked" time. The participants of the said battle (Joshua 10) got put into a different time dimension where they could move and do their thing while the timeline of the world was stopped. He then "merged" them back together, at which point an observer outside the action would have been able to see those who were involved instantaneously change positions (and the enemy instantly dead).

Sound nuts? Remember it was this same God who created all space and time dimensions along with matter and energy in the beginning. Such a "time fork" would be nothing for the God of the Bible!