Jesus Freaks...why do you believe?

Snorri1234 · Post by **Snorri1234** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:43 pm

beezer wrote:
Backglass wrote:It was "tradition" to keep blacks segregated and after many decades those "traditions" were abolished. Just because something might be construed as a tradition does not make it legal or just.
And it was a Christian minister, along with other Christians, who prayed and preached in public to help overturn that segregationist system. You may have heard of Martin Luther King, Jr.

Luckily those slaveholders weren't christians, am I rite?:P

beezer · Post by **beezer** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:45 pm

Snorri1234 wrote:
beezer wrote:
Backglass wrote:It was "tradition" to keep blacks segregated and after many decades those "traditions" were abolished. Just because something might be construed as a tradition does not make it legal or just.
And it was a Christian minister, along with other Christians, who prayed and preached in public to help overturn that segregationist system. You may have heard of Martin Luther King, Jr.
Luckily those slaveholders weren't christians, am I rite?:P

Luckily those abolitionists were Christians, am I
r - i - g - h - t?

vtmarik · Post by **vtmarik** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:47 pm

beezer wrote:
Snorri1234 wrote:
beezer wrote:
Backglass wrote:It was "tradition" to keep blacks segregated and after many decades those "traditions" were abolished. Just because something might be construed as a tradition does not make it legal or just.
And it was a Christian minister, along with other Christians, who prayed and preached in public to help overturn that segregationist system. You may have heard of Martin Luther King, Jr.
Luckily those slaveholders weren't christians, am I rite?:P
Luckily those abolitionists were Christians, am I
r - i - g - h - t?

Isn't it distinctly possible that these people were who they were regardless of their religion?

Slaveowners would be slaveowners and abolitionists would be abolitionists, right?

Snorri1234 · Post by **Snorri1234** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:53 pm

beezer wrote:
Snorri1234 wrote:
beezer wrote:
Backglass wrote:It was "tradition" to keep blacks segregated and after many decades those "traditions" were abolished. Just because something might be construed as a tradition does not make it legal or just.
And it was a Christian minister, along with other Christians, who prayed and preached in public to help overturn that segregationist system. You may have heard of Martin Luther King, Jr.
Luckily those slaveholders weren't christians, am I rite?:P
Luckily those abolitionists were Christians, am I
r - i - g - h - t?

You fail to see the point. As vtmarik said, it's not about them being christians, it's about them being good people. You don't need to be a christian to be a good person, and being a christian doesn't automatically make you a good person.

Also, you fail at internet memes.

Backglass · Post by **Backglass** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:16 pm

beezer wrote:Well the fact that you consistently call us fairy tale worshippers says different. Maybe you don't hate us, but you do look down upon us. I don't think that's a healthy attitude to have about a group of people.

Point taken.

beezer wrote:It sure does. You may not like to hear this but My family & I have just as many rights as you and your family do. If you don't like the fact that my kids' teacher has them say the pledge of allegiance which includes the words "under God" in it then tough. I want that tradition upheld in the public classroom which my tax dollars support. Your views have no superiority to anyone else's just because you don't like the concept of God.

Wrong. Of course I believe that you have equal rights to me. But you do not want equality. You want special treatment. You want to have YOUR religion given a special prayer time at a public school. AGAIN I ask why you cannot pray before your kids get on the bus? Why must it be done at everyone else expense?

I have no problem with the pledge of allegiance...even the god part as reciting a poemto our flag is not a religious ritual in my eyes.

beezer wrote:I should clarify that I don't want a specific religion taught in the classroom. The main purpose for my kids going to school is to learn to read & write fluently. I also hope they are good enough in math to surpass their old man! But if they want to pray for their food in a public school cafeteria they will do so with no interference from the ACLU or yourself.

This will shock you but I absolutely agree 100%. If your kids want to bow there heads before they eat, FINE! But don't make EVERYONE be silent and bow there heads in the cafeteria. My kid can keep checking out the girls while your kid prays.

beezer wrote:My boy plays little league and they pray before the game that nobody gets injured and all the kids have good sportsmanship. I guess that violates the separation of church and baseball field. Oh well.

That's the attitude I dislike. "Oh well...get over it."

If little Mohammed doesn't want to pray along with your coach & kids, he is ostrasized...he is different. AGAIN...why cant your family pray in the car for safety on the way to the game? WHY must everyone be crammed into your religious box ON the field?

beezer wrote:I also pray before I take off before each flight for a safe trip and God's protection for my passengers. I guess that's a violation of church & airplane. Oops!

No. That is entirely different and, being a Delta Platinum see it all the time. I could care less what YOU do in your airline seat. BUT, don't get on the planes PA and make EVERYONE pray along with you. THAT is the difference.

beezer wrote:I checked out the local paper and there was an ad for an atheist church get-together over near Denton. I decided, what the heck I'll check this out. I was curious. I went in and the people (almost all men) were pretty nice to me. I never said anything about being a Christian because I wanted to observe them as they truly are. So they began the meeting and about 10 minutes into it they were calling Christians "fascist" this & "fascist" that. They talked about defeating the Christians. They also wanted Darwin Day to be recognized within the local school district. At the end they actually got in a circle, held hands, and closed their eyes (it was probably only 5 minutes but it felt longer. I felt awkward). I guess it was praying! Nobody said anything. After it was over I asked one guy what that was and he said they were "joining in one mind". ROFL.

So I guess this has been my experience with atheist rituals. If you don't participate in them then I do take that part back.

Wow. If true, I don't know what the hell that was, but it sure wasn't true Atheism. Atheism simply means "without gods". We don't have a "church" or a bible or a prayers or anything. We generally dont congrgate or hold hands or have pancake breakfasts. I have never been to a atheist gathering and have never met face to face anyone else proclaiming to be an atheist. "Believe it or don't!"

Except for the rabid few, we pretty much keep to ourselves and go about living life without religion. What you described is WAAAYYY to religious for me. I don't WANT to "fellowship" with anyone, atheist or not! That just sounds loony to me.

beezer wrote:I highly doubt you would stop at allowing us to pray in the privacy of our own homes and churches. That is the history of atheistic regimes. You start with saying you only want to prohibit part of a religious right, but then you don't stop. You continue to push for further limitations and try to intimidate & suppress those who won't obey the restrictions.

Well, you doubt wrong. I honestly do not care if you pray at home and would never stop you from doing so. And I'm not sure what you are talking about in the second half but my opinion applies to ALL religions. Keep it at home and in the Mosque please and I'm happy.

beezer wrote:I remember when my coach would pray before the game. One person...let me say this again...ONE person complained and then it ruined it for everyone else.

One person who doesn't believe in your religion and I say bravo to them for standing up for whats right. How did this "ruin" anything? Could you not sit on the bench and pray alone to yourself? I just don't get the need for the big public display.

If your child was on a little league team full of muslim kids and before every game they held hands and prayed to Allah, would you mind? YOu kids would just sit on the bench while the other kids wondered what his problem was? And you would just laugh it off? I seriously doubt it.

beezer wrote:Atheists never stop restricting religious freedoms. They are patient, well organized, and pretty smart at knowing how far they can push before people push back.

That is bullshit. You are listening to WAY too much fire & brimstone preaching. The atheists I have read & emailed are like me. Keep it out of the public spaces I have to pay for, go home and go nuts. I honestly could care less if you pray all night long. Have a blast!

beezer wrote:They will stop, regroup, and wait for another opportunity to push the line farther until they achieve their ultimate goal of a Godless society. That is their history

And you guys say I fear religion! We have no ultimate goal...we dont even get together for petes sake!!! Atheism is by definition, just someone who doesn't believe in god. It encompasses thousands of beliefs & ideas. We are as individual and diverse as you can get. The ONLY thing we have in common is that we believe gods don't exist. Thats it...no conspiracy.

beezer · Post by **beezer** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:18 pm

Snorri1234 wrote:You fail to see the point. As vtmarik said, it's not about them being christians, it's about them being good people. You don't need to be a christian to be a good person, and being a christian doesn't automatically make you a good person.

Also, you fail at internet memes.

I fail to see the point? You're the one that tried to insinuate that Christians loved slavery! I never said you have to be a Christian to be a good person. I also never said that being a Christian makes you automatically a good person.

Read a history book. Also, you fail at spelling.

Snorri1234 · Post by **Snorri1234** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:38 pm

beezer wrote: I fail to see the point? You're the one that tried to insinuate that Christians loved slavery! I never said you have to be a Christian to be a good person. I also never said that being a Christian makes you automatically a good person.

Read a history book. Also, you fail at spelling.

Dude, you're the one that countered Backglas' post with a totally irrelevant remark. He made a point about traditions not always being right and you said "well christians took a stand against it that time". You missed the point there already.
I didn't say christians loved slavery, because I know that MLK jr. was a christian and many christians were opposed to it anyway. You clearly insinuated that christians are always just because they oppose traditions which are wrong.

Even with the ridiculous notion that is was because they were christians (,as opposed to being black being the main reason), it doesn't mean anything because many slaveowners were also christian. So basically your point was that some christians opposed some other christians about slavery? Why the hell did you make that remark?

beezer · Post by **beezer** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:52 pm

Backglass wrote:Wrong. Of course I believe that you have equal rights to me. But you do not want equality. You want special treatment. You want to have YOUR religion given a special prayer time at a public school. AGAIN I ask why you cannot pray before your kids get on the bus? Why must it be done at everyone else expense?

I have no problem with the pledge of allegiance...even the god part as reciting a poemto our flag is not a religious ritual in my eyes.

I just want my kids to have the right to pray for their lunch in public school without being harassed by the ACLU or an atheist organization. I pray with my kids at the breakfast table. I don't go in and force atheists to stop during the school day to pray. As far as prayer being at everyone else's expense, I'm not sure who is being hurt or damaged. There's nothing coercive happening when someone prays. You make it sound almost criminal to practice one's faith. However, it is nice to hear that you don't object to the pledge of allegiance. Other atheists don't feel the same.

Backglass wrote:This will shock you but I absolutely agree 100%. If your kids want to bow there heads before they eat, FINE! But don't make EVERYONE be silent and bow there heads in the cafeteria. My kid can keep checking out the girls while your kid prays.

Let me go check outside to see if the earth has stopped! I sure wouldn't want to force anyone else to stop and pray if they don't want to, but I'm not sure what law or rule you're referring to that forces kids to do that. If you've seen some of the cafeteria food perhaps prayer isn't such a bad idea after all!

Backglass wrote:That's the attitude I dislike. "Oh well...get over it."

Alright sorry. What I should say is that I want the freedom to practice my religion as long as I'm not hurting anyone.

Backglass wrote:If little Mohammed doesn't want to pray along with your coach & kids, he is ostrasized...he is different. AGAIN...why cant your family pray in the car for safety on the way to the game? WHY must everyone be crammed into your religious box ON the field?

Actually, we have a Buddhist kid (at least his parents are Buddhist) on the team. They have no problem with a general prayer for safety. They even lead the prayer once. I had no problem with it. They wish my kid well and I wish their kid well. We all cheer and have a good time. I'm sure there's even some parents who could care less either for or against Christianity but they just go along with a prayer because it's a nice gesture.

Backglass wrote:No. That is entirely different and, being a Delta Platinum see it all the time. I could care less what YOU do in your airline seat. BUT, don't get on the planes PA and make EVERYONE pray along with you. THAT is the difference.

I agree. At least you aren't flying with the friendly skies people!

Backglass wrote: Wow. If true, I don't know what the hell that was, but it sure wasn't true Atheism. Atheism simply means "without gods". We don't have a "church" or a bible or a prayers or anything. We generally dont congrgate or hold hands or have pancake breakfasts. I have never been to a atheist gathering and have never met face to face anyone else proclaiming to be an atheist. "Believe it or don't!"

Except for the rabid few, we pretty much keep to ourselves and go about living life without religion. What you described is WAAAYYY to religious for me. I don't WANT to "fellowship" with anyone, atheist or not! That just sounds loony to me.

It was weird for me because they were such nice people when I entered the door. When the meeting began it's like everyone changed! I noticed they opened up another one over in Carrollton.

Backglass wrote:Well, you doubt wrong. I honestly do not care if you pray at home and would never stop you from doing so. And I'm not sure what you are talking about in the second half but my opinion applies to ALL religions. Keep it at home and in the Mosque please and I'm happy.

Ok, at least that is consistent. But then why don't you start posting pics here on CC that insult Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, etc.? It seems you only post pics insulting Christians and say that they are the only ones drinking the Kool-Aid. If you're going to attack diety-worshippers then you should consistently ridicule all, not just one group.

Backglass wrote:One person who doesn't believe in your religion and I say bravo to them for standing up for whats right. How did this "ruin" anything? Could you not sit on the bench and pray alone to yourself? I just don't get the need for the big public display.

If your child was on a little league team full of muslim kids and before every game they held hands and prayed to Allah, would you mind? YOu kids would just sit on the bench while the other kids wondered what his problem was? And you would just laugh it off? I seriously doubt it.

It was more like a team huddle prayer. Short, sweet, and to the point. No specific sect was forced upon anyone. It ruined it for players and coaches because they wanted to do it themselves. Don't they have the right to do that either in the locker room or in the end zone as long as it doesn't delay the start of the game?

I'm not Catholic, but I don't mind watching guys playing baseball make the sign of the cross. I also don't get offended when some guy points to heaven after scoring a touchdown. It's free expression!

If my kid was forced to pray to Allah, yeah I'd have a problem with that. If they just wanted to say a quick general prayer for everyone to have good sportsmanship & not get injured I don't care if it's prayed by a Muslim, Mormon, Jewish Rabbai or whoever. It doesn't bother me.

Backglass wrote:That is bullshit. You are listening to WAY too much fire & brimstone preaching. The atheists I have read & emailed are like me. Keep it out of the public spaces I have to pay for, go home and go nuts. I honestly could care less if you pray all night long. Have a blast!

Nope, I'm seeing it within communities close to my own. I don't need a fire & brimstone preacher to tell me what I can witness myself. I pay taxes, therefore I have a right to pray in public if I want to. It's protected by the first amendment. I would never try to force you to pray with me or convert. If someone came up to you and started praying close enough to you to harass you then I wouldn't support that. It seems that you are bothered by the mere act of prayer itself in public. Anyway, I want to say that if I saw you in public I would go to some other public place as best I could to not be an annoyance to you. I just don't like being told that I can't practice my religion out in public as long as I'm not harming anyone.

Backglass wrote: And you guys say I fear religion! We have no ultimate goal...we dont even get together for petes sake!!! Atheism is by definition, just someone who doesn't believe in god. It encompasses thousands of beliefs & ideas. We are as individual and diverse as you can get. The ONLY thing we have in common is that we believe gods don't exist. Thats it...no conspiracy.

But yet you take the time to post picture after picture insulting people who believe in Jesus Christ. I guess this is the main thing I have a problem with. If you and I were neighbors and I knew you were an atheist I wouldn't stick a sign on my yard insulting you in order to upset you. It seems that you go the extra mile in order to provoke us. I really don't have a problem with you not believing in Christ, just stop insulting my faith.

You seem like such a personable guy at times but then you just make it so hard to be friendly because of your insults. Give up those Delta Miles and come fly American.

beezer · Post by **beezer** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:57 pm

Snorri1234 wrote:Dude, you're the one that countered Backglas' post with a totally irrelevant remark. He made a point about traditions not always being right and you said "well christians took a stand against it that time". You missed the point there already.
I didn't say christians loved slavery, because I know that MLK jr. was a christian and many christians were opposed to it anyway. You clearly insinuated that christians are always just because they oppose traditions which are wrong.

Even with the ridiculous notion that is was because they were christians (,as opposed to being black being the main reason), it doesn't mean anything because many slaveowners were also christian. So basically your point was that some christians opposed some other christians about slavery? Why the hell did you make that remark?

Because it seemed like you were just making a sarcastic remark for the sake of being sarcastic against Christians. I for one am a little tired of it. If that wasn't your intent then my apologies.

Christians have made many solid contributions in the sciences & social movements. It gets a little tiresome to hear the broken record of 'Christians only do bad', 'Christians only do bad' on this site. If you listened to some here on CC you would think that the only thing that ever happened in human history was the Crusades.

beezer · Post by **beezer** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:04 pm

jay_a2j wrote:Separation of church and state has been twisted to mean what it was never meant to mean. It was to protect the church from the state NOT the other way around.

Actually it's not even in the Constitution. People use that phrase from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to a group of Baptists in Danbury, Connecticut.

Tyr · Post by **Tyr** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:07 pm

actually it was supposed to protect religous freedom by not treating one preferentialy

unriggable · Post by **unriggable** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:11 pm

beezer wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:Separation of church and state has been twisted to mean what it was never meant to mean. It was to protect the church from the state NOT the other way around.
Actually it's not even in the Constitution. People use that phrase from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to a group of Baptists in Danbury, Connecticut.

Freedom of religion is in the constitution. Same thing. Founding Fathers never intended on making this a religious country and theres a thread about that.

vtmarik · Post by **vtmarik** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:13 pm

unriggable wrote:
beezer wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:Separation of church and state has been twisted to mean what it was never meant to mean. It was to protect the church from the state NOT the other way around.
Actually it's not even in the Constitution. People use that phrase from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to a group of Baptists in Danbury, Connecticut.
Freedom of religion is in the constitution. Same thing. Founding Fathers never intended on making this a religious country and theres a thread about that.

Yep.

That quote, by the way, refers specifically to "A wall of separation between Church and State."

A wall, meaning neither touches the other. There's no door that only swings one way.

The State stays out of Church, and the Church is separate from the State.

joecoolfrog · Post by **joecoolfrog** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:14 pm

Can somebody enlighten me as to where all these militant Atheist groups are hiding

vtmarik · Post by **vtmarik** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:16 pm

joecoolfrog wrote:Can somebody enlighten me as to where all these militant Atheist groups are hiding

They pose as Christians and then spring, kinda like Al Qaeda only their war isn't holy. It's a Rational War.

Tyr · Post by **Tyr** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:18 pm

they wanted a country where all religons could practicefreely but not a totaly non-religous state

Tyr · Post by **Tyr** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:20 pm

oh and to clear up the preayer before football games thing. we have a muslonm a sikh christians and me the agnostic allon one team. wepray before every game and say the lords prayer. to me its just asking for luck fromt he guy who picks the lottery balls. and i guess the other guys just pray what they want. religon is never a touchy subject till fanatics on both sides make it touchy

unriggable · Post by **unriggable** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:27 pm

vtmarik wrote:
joecoolfrog wrote:Can somebody enlighten me as to where all these militant Atheist groups are hiding
They pose as Christians and then spring, kinda like Al Qaeda only their war isn't holy. It's a Rational War.

Named because of it's easily manipulable maneuvers and its distinct shape, the 'cross ambush' is often used by military atheists as a way to burn churches and destroy homes belonging to loyal American families. Although no suspects or evidence have been found, the hunt continues.

vtmarik · Post by **vtmarik** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:30 pm

unriggable wrote:
vtmarik wrote:
joecoolfrog wrote:Can somebody enlighten me as to where all these militant Atheist groups are hiding
They pose as Christians and then spring, kinda like Al Qaeda only their war isn't holy. It's a Rational War.
Named because of it's easily manipulable maneuvers and its distinct shape, the 'cross ambush' is often used by military atheists as a way to burn churches and destroy homes belonging to loyal American families. Although no suspects or evidence have been found, the hunt continues.

People should be aware that these atheists often leave copies of The Satanic Bible at their attacks in a vain attempt to draw attention off of them.

unriggable · Post by **unriggable** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:32 pm

jay_a2j wrote:Separation of church and state has been twisted to mean what it was never meant to mean.

But the bible is twist-free, right?

Tyr · Post by **Tyr** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:33 pm

amen to that

oops

riggable · Post by **riggable** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:33 pm

unriggable wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:Separation of church and state has been twisted to mean what it was never meant to mean.
But the bible is twist-free, right?

what a dumbly worded argument.

vtmarik · Post by **vtmarik** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:34 pm

unriggable wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:Separation of church and state has been twisted to mean what it was never meant to mean.
But the bible is twist-free, right?

It hasn't been twisted, it's been translated.

yankeefan984 · Post by **yankeefan984** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:36 pm

beezer wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:Separation of church and state has been twisted to mean what it was never meant to mean. It was to protect the church from the state NOT the other way around.
Actually it's not even in the Constitution. People use that phrase from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to a group of Baptists in Danbury, Connecticut.

Thank you for getting this right. Most people have no idea what they are taking about.

Tyr · Post by **Tyr** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:37 pm

vtmarik wrote:
unriggable wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:Separation of church and state has been twisted to mean what it was never meant to mean.
But the bible is twist-free, right?
It hasn't been twisted, it's been translated.

a changed along the way