WWII Pearl Harbor - [Quenched]

[jako]

yay congratz

[benjikat]

Congrats on the quench.


A question about the amended xml above:


Shouldn't the various aircraft bonuses have <overrules> in them? So that the partial aircraft bonus doesn't apply when you have them all.


Also do the partial bonuses also need to overrule each other?

[edbeard]

http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=862895


my BOB is telling me I am to get 6 armies. I think I'm supposed to get 8 because I also own 2 aircraft from the Kates group. Or, am I just confused here?

[DiM]

http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=862895


my BOB is telling me I am to get 6 armies. I think I'm supposed to get 8 because I also own 2 aircraft from the Kates group. Or, am I just confused here?

i think you are right. you own 2 aircrafts so you should get an additional +3 (not +2)
i'll look at the xml now.

[DiM]

ok so i looked at the xml. i'm no guru but i think it is wrong.

in the xml we have:

Code: Select all

<continent>
<name>Kates</name>
<bonus>6</bonus>
−
	<components>
<component>K1</component>
<component>K2</component>
<component>K3</component>
<component>K4</component>
<component>K5</component>
<component>K6</component>
</components>
</continent>
−
	<collection>
<name>Kate Aircraft</name>
−
	<components>
<component>K1</component>
<component>K2</component>
<component>K3</component>
<component>K4</component>
<component>K5</component>
<component>K6</component>
</components>
−
	<bonuses>
<bonus quantity="2">3</bonus>
<bonus quantity="4">4</bonus>
</bonuses>
</collection>

so we have the continent and then we have collection with quantity. i have no idea how this works if it does.

i thought the bonus within a bonus is done with the overrule command.

something like:

Code: Select all

<continent>
<name>Kates</name>
<bonus>6</bonus>
−
	<components>
<component>K1</component>
<component>K2</component>
<component>K3</component>
<component>K4</component>
<component>K5</component>
<component>K6</component>
</components>
<overrules>
      <overrule>k1+k2</overrule>
      <overrule>k1+k3</overrule>
      <overrule>k1+k4</overrule>
..............
      <overrule>k3+k4+k5+k6</overrule>
   </overrules> 
</continent>

*****and then all the mini continents like:****


−<continent>
<name>K1+k2</name>
<bonus>3</bonus>
<component>K1</component>
<component>K2</component>
</continent>

***and so on until we get to the 3 aircraft mini continents where they must also overrule the 2 aircraft mini continents:***

<name>k3+K4+k5+k6</name>
<bonus>4</bonus>
<component>K3</component>
<component>K4</component>
<component>K5</component>
<component>K6</component>
<overrules>
      <overrule>k1+k2</overrule>
      <overrule>k1+k3</overrule>
      <overrule>k1+k4</overrule>
..............
      <overrule>k5+k6</overrule>
   </overrules> 
</continent>

[Coleman]

I could fix this, but I have no desire to do so.

It would take more typing then I have time to do. Outside CC commitments and all that.

[edbeard]

well there's actually another command where you can put something where you get a bonus for holding part of a continent. Like a bonus of 1 for holding any 2 territories from Australia or something.


found the example

Code: Select all

<continent>
   <name>Oceania</name>
   <bonus>2</bonus>
   <components>
      <component>Indonesia</component>
      <component>New Guinea</component>
      <component>Western Australia</component>
      <component>Eastern Australia</component>
   </components>
   <overrules>
      <overrule>Half of Oceania</overrule>
   </overrules>
</continent>
<continent>
   <name>Half of Oceania</name>
   <bonus>1</bonus>
   <components>
      <component>Indonesia</component>
      <component>New Guinea</component>
      <component>Western Australia</component>
      <component>Eastern Australia</component>
   </components>
   <required>2</required>
</continent>

[DiM]

well there's actually another command where you can put something where you get a bonus for holding part of a continent. Like a bonus of 1 for holding any 2 territories from Australia or something.


found the example

Code: Select all

<continent>
   <name>Oceania</name>
   <bonus>2</bonus>
   <components>
      <component>Indonesia</component>
      <component>New Guinea</component>
      <component>Western Australia</component>
      <component>Eastern Australia</component>
   </components>
   <overrules>
      <overrule>Half of Oceania</overrule>
   </overrules>
</continent>
<continent>
   <name>Half of Oceania</name>
   <bonus>1</bonus>
   <components>
      <component>Indonesia</component>
      <component>New Guinea</component>
      <component>Western Australia</component>
      <component>Eastern Australia</component>
   </components>
   <required>2</required>
</continent>

that's exactly what i said earlier:

ok so i looked at the xml. i'm no guru but i think it is wrong.

in the xml we have:

Code: Select all

<continent>
<name>Kates</name>
<bonus>6</bonus>
−
	<components>
<component>K1</component>
<component>K2</component>
<component>K3</component>
<component>K4</component>
<component>K5</component>
<component>K6</component>
</components>
</continent>
−
	<collection>
<name>Kate Aircraft</name>
−
	<components>
<component>K1</component>
<component>K2</component>
<component>K3</component>
<component>K4</component>
<component>K5</component>
<component>K6</component>
</components>
−
	<bonuses>
<bonus quantity="2">3</bonus>
<bonus quantity="4">4</bonus>
</bonuses>
</collection>

so we have the continent and then we have collection with quantity. i have no idea how this works if it does.

i thought the bonus within a bonus is done with the overrule command.

something like:

Code: Select all

<continent>
<name>Kates</name>
<bonus>6</bonus>
−
	<components>
<component>K1</component>
<component>K2</component>
<component>K3</component>
<component>K4</component>
<component>K5</component>
<component>K6</component>
</components>
<overrules>
      <overrule>k1+k2</overrule>
      <overrule>k1+k3</overrule>
      <overrule>k1+k4</overrule>
..............
      <overrule>k3+k4+k5+k6</overrule>
   </overrules> 
</continent>

*****and then all the mini continents like:****


−<continent>
<name>K1+k2</name>
<bonus>3</bonus>
<component>K1</component>
<component>K2</component>
</continent>

***and so on until we get to the 3 aircraft mini continents where they must also overrule the 2 aircraft mini continents:***

<name>k3+K4+k5+k6</name>
<bonus>4</bonus>
<component>K3</component>
<component>K4</component>
<component>K5</component>
<component>K6</component>
<overrules>
      <overrule>k1+k2</overrule>
      <overrule>k1+k3</overrule>
      <overrule>k1+k4</overrule>
..............
      <overrule>k5+k6</overrule>
   </overrules> 
</continent>

[DiM]

I could fix this, but I have no desire to do so.

It would take more typing then I have time to do. Outside CC commitments and all that.

indeed it would take a LOT of typing to make every single combination of planes into a continent then overrule and so on

[Coleman]

We don't need overrules. There should be a collection bonus that lack built that works. If this is the first time that it has been tested and it doesn't work this is an error on lack's part.

My main irritation is that I have no idea where all the changes lack made are documented for us to easily use. We have some 'xml tutorial' that is very out of date. I don't have the time to search the forums for it.

[edbeard]

yours didn't have the required part (or at least I didn't see it) (don't roll those eyes at me!!!!)

<required>2</required>

which makes it a lot easier.

I might try to do it later (but that would be hours from now)

[edbeard]

I think you do need the overrules

xml tutorial is here

the link is in the map ideas thread.


I'll be back later and if not finished then I'll put something together and post it here for people to correct/confirm it's done properly.

[Coleman]

Yeah you do. No offense to Keyogi, but this makes 100 times more sense to me then the way he wrote it.

Collections / X of Y Bonus
Instead of introcuing a new <collections> tag how about adding a "required" (or "quantity"?) tag to <continent>, like this:

Code: Select all

<continent>
	<name>Any 4 Kings</name>
	<bonus>5</bonus>
	<components>
		<component>Red King</component>
		<component>Green King</component>
		<component>Blue King</component>
		<component>Purple King</component>
		<component>Yellow King</component>
	</components>
	<required>4</required>
</continent>

This will require a bit more XML but is more flexible and similar to what we already have. Comments?

Overruling continent bonus
Instead of a <bestof> tag how about a set of <overrule>s, like this:

Code: Select all

<continent>
	<name>Any 4 Kings</name>
	<bonus>5</bonus>
	<components>
		<component>Red King</component>
		<component>Green King</component>
		<component>Blue King</component>
		<component>Purple King</component>
		<component>Yellow King</component>
	</components>
	<required>4</required>
	<overrules>
		<overrule>Any 2 Kings</overrule>
		<overrule>Any 3 Kings</overrule>
	</overrules>
</continent>

I lied about not having the time to find it. I also lied about not having time to fix this. I'll do it.

[Coleman]

Sample of New Code:

Code: Select all

<!-- Vals -->

<continent>
<name>All Vals</name>
<bonus>6</bonus>
<components>
<component>V1</component>
<component>V2</component>
<component>V3</component>
<component>V4</component>
<component>V5</component>
<component>V6</component>
   <overrules>
      <overrule>4 Vals</overrule>
      <overrule>2 Vals</overrule>
   </overrules>
</components>
</continent>

<continent>
<name>4 Vals</name>
<bonus>4</bonus>
<components>
<component>V1</component>
<component>V2</component>
<component>V3</component>
<component>V4</component>
<component>V5</component>
<component>V6</component>
<required>4</required>
   <overrules>
      <overrule>2 Vals</overrule>
   </overrules> 
</components>
</continent>

<continent>
<name>2 Vals</name>
<bonus>3</bonus>
<components>
<component>V1</component>
<component>V2</component>
<component>V3</component>
<component>V4</component>
<component>V5</component>
<component>V6</component>
<required>2</required> 
</components>
</continent>

Link To New Code:
http://members.cox.net/gyrigo/CC/Pearl_Harbor.xml

[DiM]

nice well i guess it's much easier than i thought

[Coleman]

nice well i guess it's much easier than i thought

You had the right idea, and if I didn't constantly fish around to see what crazy stuff DiM is saying I never would have stopped by to fix it. Lack has already accepted the pm with the fix, not sure if it is up yet or not.

I'm not stalking you, I also read most of bk_barunt's work when I need amusement. He's the only flamer I find entertaining.

Edit: Looks like it isn't up yet, maybe lack put it on his to do list for later and didn't swap the files right away. Might be more to it then I think there is.

[cairnswk]

PUBLIC THANK YOUs

This morning, I was at work after making some fixes in the xml for this map.

Seems though there were more waiting in the wings.

To this point I want to express my sincerest thanks to those CC members who got involved and made the fix possible when they really didn't have to....Benjikat and edbeard firstly for bring attention of the errors and then DiM and Coleman who from what i can see went to extraordinary lengths to create a fix and find the correct xml for the map.

Your desire to assist the foundry is very noteworthy.

Gracia Gracia Gracia!!!

[Forza AZ]

About the Bombardments. How does this exactly work?

1.Can you attack the planes just as long untill there is only 1 army left there? And when there are 2 left, can the plane only defend with 1 dice (because else he could lose 2 which isn't possible).

2.Or can you take out all armies after which the plane turns neutral somehow?

[Coleman]

2.Or can you take out all armies after which the plane turns neutral somehow?

It's that one. At least 3 or 4 new upcoming maps will have bombardments. When you blast the enemy away all your surviving armies stay where they are and the enemy has a nice neutral 1 in their midst.

[Forza AZ]

The partial bonusses still don't work. In game 866568 I have 3 V's and 5 Z's at my first turn, but I didn't get any bonus while I should have gotten a bonus of 7.

[Rectifier96]

I'm not sure if the aircraft bonus isn't working or I'm just reading it incorrectly or something.

I was trying to take control of the Zeroes aircraft group bonus. I figured that even if I didn't get all the aircraft I would at least still get a bonus of 4 for holding 4 aircraft. Well the dice allowed me to only take 6 of the 7 Zeroes. I was fine with that, I'll just wait until the next turn.

The description of the bonuses says "Until Group taken, within any Group: +3 any 2 aircraft, +4 any 4 aircraft"

Hellyeah, I've got 6 of 7, so I should get +4...Nothing happened. What did happen was my opponent was getting a bonus for Oil and I couldn't get bonus for the aircrafts and I ultimately got annihilated.

If someone could lend some information about this or what is going on that would be great.

...And while I'm here, why can't planes attack any of the AA? I thought that planes would want to take out these?

[Rectifier96]

I'm not sure if the aircraft bonus isn't working or I'm just reading it incorrectly or something.

I was trying to take control of the Zeroes aircraft group bonus. I figured that even if I didn't get all the aircraft I would at least still get a bonus of 4 for holding 4 aircraft. Well the dice allowed me to only take 6 of the 7 Zeroes. I was fine with that, I'll just wait until the next turn.

The description of the bonuses says "Until Group taken, within any Group: +3 any 2 aircraft, +4 any 4 aircraft"

Hellyeah, I've got 6 of 7, so I should get +4...Nothing happened. What did happen was my opponent was getting a bonus for Oil and I couldn't get bonus for the aircrafts and I ultimately got annihilated.

If someone could lend some information about this or what is going on that would be great.

...And while I'm here, why can't planes attack any of the AA? I thought that planes would want to take out these?

[Geoster]

I think this map more than any other shows the glaring weaknesses of the Foundry process. After we spend all this time on pointless quibbling and fiddling the map STILL gets released with a major bug. I'm not even going to get into the serious balance issues in this map right now, although I plan to after more playtesting.

What all this says to me is that the Foundry as such is a draconian and ineffectual system controlled by a handful of selfish egos (no offense meant to anyone in particular, although I'm sure they'll identify themselves by speaking up). At a certain point in a map's evolution, playtesting is the ONLY sensible development tool, but we currently have no means to do this. Instead we have this quagmire we call "The Final Forge."

Lest I be misunderstood, I mean no offense to cairnswk for any of this. I think he's made a beautiful map with great potential. It's just not finished yet. And the process is to blame.

G

[Forza AZ]

I think this map more than any other shows the glaring weaknesses of the Foundry process. After we spend all this time on pointless quibbling and fiddling the map STILL gets released with a major bug. I'm not even going to get into the serious balance issues in this map right now, although I plan to after more playtesting.

I agree. After AoM was released there was a discussion here that we might want to make a group of people that went over the XML before release. Nothing has been done with that I think, since still maps are released with mistakes in the XML.
I can off course understand that map makers are not able to see these mistakes as they spend so much time on the XML that they overlook the mistakes.
But a group of people with a fresh perspective should be able to get all mistakes out of the XML. I just didn't see this partial bonus mistake as it's written in a new way now (not all possible combinations seperately any more). But apparently this new way doesn't work (yet).

[cairnswk]

I'm not sure if the aircraft bonus isn't working or I'm just reading it incorrectly or something.

I was trying to take control of the Zeroes aircraft group bonus. I figured that even if I didn't get all the aircraft I would at least still get a bonus of 4 for holding 4 aircraft. Well the dice allowed me to only take 6 of the 7 Zeroes. I was fine with that, I'll just wait until the next turn.

The description of the bonuses says "Until Group taken, within any Group: +3 any 2 aircraft, +4 any 4 aircraft"

Hellyeah, I've got 6 of 7, so I should get +4...Nothing happened. What did happen was my opponent was getting a bonus for Oil and I couldn't get bonus for the aircrafts and I ultimately got annihilated.

If someone could lend some information about this or what is going on that would be great.

...And while I'm here, why can't planes attack any of the AA? I thought that planes would want to take out these?

hi Rectifier96, thanks for your post ....last part first
....because that is how the game play on THIS map is.
Yes you are correct, but at the time of development, that wasn't argued for so it didn't go in as part of the tactics. If there is enough call for it later after everything else is ironed out, perhaps it can be included then.


Now to the first part.
Apart from obvious errors that I make in writing the xml, there appears there still might be some things not quite right with the aircraft xml from the details of your post.
Because some of these features are being "tested" with this map, i thank you for bringing it to our attention and will inform lackattack of this issue, and hopefully he will return with something in the next 24 hours or so.
Please bare with us.