i agreeXyl wrote:It's beautiful, but unfortunately the territory borders are hard to see at a glance. You have to examine the map to find what borders what.
Westeros - A Song of Ice and Fire [abandoned]
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I'm working on a new border style, tweaking an existing idea used before that we disliked. We're likely to lose some territories along the way though so as not to cramp the map. 36 territories will likely be the new target unless we can create some new territories along the way to replace old ones that will be lost.
The borders and the Stark continent are two areas I knew would likely cause problems. Updating the borders will take some time due to my busy schedule so if there's any potential solutions to the Stark issue, I'm all ears (or eyes as may be more appropriate).
The Stark continent includes many territories that belong to other houses loyal to Stark. If it wasn't for the fact all these smaller houses only make up one territory we could of perhaps had a sub-continent bonus system. We could stand to lose a few territories up there as well, but I'm not sure this is ideal. So, this is our dilemma.
The borders and the Stark continent are two areas I knew would likely cause problems. Updating the borders will take some time due to my busy schedule so if there's any potential solutions to the Stark issue, I'm all ears (or eyes as may be more appropriate).
The Stark continent includes many territories that belong to other houses loyal to Stark. If it wasn't for the fact all these smaller houses only make up one territory we could of perhaps had a sub-continent bonus system. We could stand to lose a few territories up there as well, but I'm not sure this is ideal. So, this is our dilemma.
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owenshooter
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agree
what DiM said, x2... YOUR MY BOY, DiM!!!!-0
The borders are being worked on at the moment.
The other major change we are working on is Dim's suggestion that an unlucky player could be stuck in Stark from the beginning of the game.
Both of these will be quite major changes, The difficulty being staying true to the books. (Stark being massive, and owning the entire north)
However, cheers for your suggestions so far... they are all being taken on board... keep em coming.
The other major change we are working on is Dim's suggestion that an unlucky player could be stuck in Stark from the beginning of the game.
Both of these will be quite major changes, The difficulty being staying true to the books. (Stark being massive, and owning the entire north)
However, cheers for your suggestions so far... they are all being taken on board... keep em coming.
)
good jobs guys. borders are done with in my opinion.
I don't think yellow is worth 7. Two more territories than green. One more territory that can attack it (nine for yellow, eight for green). Same number of border territories. Big difference is the five bordering continents versus three. But, I don't think that makes it worth 7. I can understand not putting 5 so 6 sounds like the best number to me. Unless I overlooked or am mistaken about something of course.
You've setup everything quite well. And, even if it was all from the author (I think this is a book series?) well you still deserve the credit.
I guess just work on the title, legend, and getting rid of all that open space.
I don't think yellow is worth 7. Two more territories than green. One more territory that can attack it (nine for yellow, eight for green). Same number of border territories. Big difference is the five bordering continents versus three. But, I don't think that makes it worth 7. I can understand not putting 5 so 6 sounds like the best number to me. Unless I overlooked or am mistaken about something of course.
You've setup everything quite well. And, even if it was all from the author (I think this is a book series?) well you still deserve the credit.
I guess just work on the title, legend, and getting rid of all that open space.
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unriggable
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Part of the reason the Baratheon bonus was made 7 rather than 6 was because it borders 5 other houses, as opposed to just 3 for the Tyrell's. I'm not objecting to reducing the bonus to 6, it was difficult deciding one way or the other.
Oldstones does border Bloody Gate. I can try and rework that border a little if it needs fixing. A lot of the borders are drawn over rivers, so may need tweaking.
I'm not sure how Dragonstone could be any clearer?
What are your reasonings for Stark to be reduced to 3 and Martell to 2?
Eight territories and three borders for a bonus of 3 seems a bit harsh, especially when you've got the Arryns and Tully's bordering it for the same or similar bonus values. It was difficult to make the Stark continent reflect the books but not be too powerful for gameplay purposes. I think if we dropped the bonus to 3 for the Starks, there wouldn't be much incentive to try and take the continent.
As for Martell being worth just 2... I'm not so sure here either. I'd sooner add a sea connection between Mistwood and The Tor than drop the bonus to two.
I'd like to gather other peoples thoughts and opinions on the bonuses before we go making any sort of decision.
Oldstones does border Bloody Gate. I can try and rework that border a little if it needs fixing. A lot of the borders are drawn over rivers, so may need tweaking.
I'm not sure how Dragonstone could be any clearer?
What are your reasonings for Stark to be reduced to 3 and Martell to 2?
Eight territories and three borders for a bonus of 3 seems a bit harsh, especially when you've got the Arryns and Tully's bordering it for the same or similar bonus values. It was difficult to make the Stark continent reflect the books but not be too powerful for gameplay purposes. I think if we dropped the bonus to 3 for the Starks, there wouldn't be much incentive to try and take the continent.
As for Martell being worth just 2... I'm not so sure here either. I'd sooner add a sea connection between Mistwood and The Tor than drop the bonus to two.
I'd like to gather other peoples thoughts and opinions on the bonuses before we go making any sort of decision.
Looks like I'm one of the first to look at this map from a fan of the books point of view. I really like it and it could be quenched as is IMO. This map is very original and adds value to conquerclub most importantly. I think this map should be somewhat epic which to me means lots of territories and continents. I know you want to stick to a classic feel (no gimmics) but a little suplemented classic gameplay could help. A couple of spoiler questions:
1) People were complaining about the Stark bonus being big. I see youve lowered it. Another option would be Kings Road. From Kings Landing to Winterhold. Only can attack each other. It would add a little "story" to the map and highlight the two focus houses of the book.
2) The Wall. Its inconsequential to the map but pivotal to the story. How about a "Beyond the Wall" or "King Beyond" continent? Already represented on the map are The Gift, The Wall, Haunted Forest, The Frostfangs, Bear Island and Skagos. One way from Stark through The Gift/Wall to Haunted forest, Skagos to Karhold and Frostfangs>Bear Island>Iron Islands/Deepwood. I can see where this could be a launching point for Winterhold and could be another "Classic Australia".
3) House Targaryen. The timing of the map to the chronology of the book is in question here. Another huge aspect of the books unrepresented in the map. I guess it would require an island continent. I saw it drawn out on a fan site with countries and where it is in relation to Westeros but cant find it at this point. I dont think it would be easy to add and I dont know how much G.R.R. would like you giving away a critical aspect of the books. Plus we dont know the sea lanes Daneryes will take yet.
4) Greyjoy. Another "spoiler" issue but another way to highlight and the novel and make Stark harder to hold. Make it a small continent. Iron Islands, The Rill and The Neck.
5) House Sigils. They are readily available and would make a nice touch in the background (i.e., Great Lakes) or as continent markers on the key. Again I dont know how much G.R.R. is willing to give on copyright usage.
Anyway, like I said, I love it anyway. I'm a big fan of large maps (2.1) and as I said before this map should be epic. And I dont see any reason to limit your efforts to a "classic" feel with no gimmics. Used discriminately they could make this map.
1) People were complaining about the Stark bonus being big. I see youve lowered it. Another option would be Kings Road. From Kings Landing to Winterhold. Only can attack each other. It would add a little "story" to the map and highlight the two focus houses of the book.
2) The Wall. Its inconsequential to the map but pivotal to the story. How about a "Beyond the Wall" or "King Beyond" continent? Already represented on the map are The Gift, The Wall, Haunted Forest, The Frostfangs, Bear Island and Skagos. One way from Stark through The Gift/Wall to Haunted forest, Skagos to Karhold and Frostfangs>Bear Island>Iron Islands/Deepwood. I can see where this could be a launching point for Winterhold and could be another "Classic Australia".
3) House Targaryen. The timing of the map to the chronology of the book is in question here. Another huge aspect of the books unrepresented in the map. I guess it would require an island continent. I saw it drawn out on a fan site with countries and where it is in relation to Westeros but cant find it at this point. I dont think it would be easy to add and I dont know how much G.R.R. would like you giving away a critical aspect of the books. Plus we dont know the sea lanes Daneryes will take yet.
4) Greyjoy. Another "spoiler" issue but another way to highlight and the novel and make Stark harder to hold. Make it a small continent. Iron Islands, The Rill and The Neck.
5) House Sigils. They are readily available and would make a nice touch in the background (i.e., Great Lakes) or as continent markers on the key. Again I dont know how much G.R.R. is willing to give on copyright usage.
Anyway, like I said, I love it anyway. I'm a big fan of large maps (2.1) and as I said before this map should be epic. And I dont see any reason to limit your efforts to a "classic" feel with no gimmics. Used discriminately they could make this map.
Hi Dmunster.
Just to answer a couple of your easier questions....
I would have absolutely loved to have made this map as epic as the books. But the real restriction came in the nature of the beast that is the length of the whole continent.
The lands beyond the wall were in the original plans, but had to cut them out to give us some more width for the main part of the continent, which we felt was more important.
I would have also like to have added in the Targaryens. But we made a decision to create the map as at the point in time of the beginning of the 1st book of the series. (the exception being the iron islands. You will notice we have given them to Tully. This is for gameplay purposes)
This is because a) it's relatively spoiler free and b) it's a point in time where who owns what is relatively clear cut.
The house sigils, we are planning to use as a part of the legend.
Your other suggestions will be kept in mind.... We are hoping for feedback from fans of the book, because we would like to make it as close as possible... so keep them coming.
Just to answer a couple of your easier questions....
I would have absolutely loved to have made this map as epic as the books. But the real restriction came in the nature of the beast that is the length of the whole continent.
The lands beyond the wall were in the original plans, but had to cut them out to give us some more width for the main part of the continent, which we felt was more important.
I would have also like to have added in the Targaryens. But we made a decision to create the map as at the point in time of the beginning of the 1st book of the series. (the exception being the iron islands. You will notice we have given them to Tully. This is for gameplay purposes)
This is because a) it's relatively spoiler free and b) it's a point in time where who owns what is relatively clear cut.
The house sigils, we are planning to use as a part of the legend.
Your other suggestions will be kept in mind.... We are hoping for feedback from fans of the book, because we would like to make it as close as possible... so keep them coming.
I love the new border style. 
Oldstones/Bloody Gate is a bit squintworthy, yes. I think it would be worth moving the border a bit for clarity, even if it's not strictly faithful to the books.
Bitterbridge and Harrenhall don't really feel like they border each other. I'd rather see the borders rearranged so Silverhill borders King's Landing. I realize it requires moving the border off the river somewhere.
The bonuses look good. Baratheon could be +6 or +7 or even +8; it doesn't really matter much, since anyone who holds it will be a huge target. All the natural defensive lines split it in half, too.
I'd suggest a one-way border from The Eyrie to The Fingers, but I don't know if you could do in a way that's clear but not ugly. It feels like there should be some nod to The Eyrie's defensibility.
How about adding +1 army per turn for holding Winterfell, Casterly Rock, or King's Landing, and reducing the corresponding continent bonuses by 1? It might make an interesting gameplay dynamic, with three key territories to fight over.
Oldstones/Bloody Gate is a bit squintworthy, yes. I think it would be worth moving the border a bit for clarity, even if it's not strictly faithful to the books.
Bitterbridge and Harrenhall don't really feel like they border each other. I'd rather see the borders rearranged so Silverhill borders King's Landing. I realize it requires moving the border off the river somewhere.
The bonuses look good. Baratheon could be +6 or +7 or even +8; it doesn't really matter much, since anyone who holds it will be a huge target. All the natural defensive lines split it in half, too.
I'd suggest a one-way border from The Eyrie to The Fingers, but I don't know if you could do in a way that's clear but not ugly. It feels like there should be some nod to The Eyrie's defensibility.
How about adding +1 army per turn for holding Winterfell, Casterly Rock, or King's Landing, and reducing the corresponding continent bonuses by 1? It might make an interesting gameplay dynamic, with three key territories to fight over.
In response to Dmunster... yes, this map is full of compromises already. As Spockers pointed out, the map is set at the beginning of the first book for a number of reasons. If it wasn't for size restrictions and the awkward shape of the Westeros continent, a much more detailed and epic map would be possible.
I have a map of King's Landing in mind for when this map is finished, but we'll just see how things go with this one first.
Xyl, we're pretty determined not to have any specific city/stronghold bonuses, but I understand your point about The Eyrie. I think it's going to have to be another compromise though I'm afraid.
I have a map of King's Landing in mind for when this map is finished, but we'll just see how things go with this one first.
Xyl, we're pretty determined not to have any specific city/stronghold bonuses, but I understand your point about The Eyrie. I think it's going to have to be another compromise though I'm afraid.
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unriggable
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Just throwing ideas out, looking for something to add that "flavor" mibi likes. How about some garlic in Harrenhall?Spockers wrote:ok, as much as i like everyone adding suggestions, i should point out that there will be no one-way borders, single territory bonuses, airports, transporters, etc...
this one is strictly classic-style.
On another note, does anyone else get the feel that the gameplay is a bit off? I can't put my finger on it, but it feels too ... cluttered. The fact that Lannister and Tully both have 4 border and 0 internal territories may have something to do with it.
Last edited by Xyl on Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DiM
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i was just thinking exactly that, but it's in the process so i guess it will be added later.mibi wrote:The map has no flavor. I am assuming you guys haven't gotten around to that yet right.
at this point it looks like a land blob in the middle of some blue (i know it's water but it doesn't look like it)spockers wrote:um... what flavour were you hoping for, mibi?
i haven't read the books so for me it could be anything from midkemia to your own backyard. you need small details that make a map stand out.
first of all a name. a name can do wonders for a map like this. if it was a germany map or a US map it wouldn't have needed a name because it would have been easy to recognize. second you need some sort of graphical things on it to make if less bland. let's compare this to the other maps that have this style. troy has houses and roads and walls and it really looks like there's something to look at. feudal wars and age of realms have castles villages mines camps etc. stuff that adds something to the whole image. right now you have just a flat landscape.
by the look of things i don't think your going to add anything to the landscape and that's a bummer for me but you really need to do something really good to fill the space in the water to compensate.
anyway here are more thoughts:
1. the new borders make it a whole lot easier to get around the map. still not very easy like on other maps but they do their jos and with a bit of attention i guess they're ok. still some issues to solve like the oldstones <-> bloody gate connection.
2. size. if you reduce this to 630*600 all the names will burst out ot the terits and in some places the army shadows will be a very tight squeeze. like riverrun or storm's end.
3. font. it's kinda of a boring one. being a fantasy map i'd like some fancy fonts to be used. i agree fancy fonts can be a bitch because some people can only read arial and anything else is too hard for them. i know how this cause i've change like 20 fonts for AoM. so what i'm saying is i'd like to see more font options. if people don't like them then go back to this one.
4. legend. i guess this one is just a preliminary thing, the legend will look better, right?
5. the wall. i don't know what the wall is in the books but here it looks like it's taller than the mountains.
6. gameplay. i just woke up so i'll comment on it later.
“In the beginning God said, the four-dimensional divergence of an antisymmetric, second rank tensor equals zero, and there was light, and it was good. And on the seventh day he rested.”- Michio Kaku
OK just clear a couple things up, and let KEYOGI handle the rest.
1. Most importantly, of course a decent name and legend will be coming. Don't worry about that. It's the least important thing so will be added last.
2. There will be no details such as castles, towns etc added to the landscape. KEYOGI, I believe, has done an outstanding job of the landscape as is, as has raised the bar in the standards of the foundry.
3. We are accounting for the small map.
4. The wall is pretty damned high, yes.
5. I will value your opinion on gameplay when you get around to it.
1. Most importantly, of course a decent name and legend will be coming. Don't worry about that. It's the least important thing so will be added last.
2. There will be no details such as castles, towns etc added to the landscape. KEYOGI, I believe, has done an outstanding job of the landscape as is, as has raised the bar in the standards of the foundry.
3. We are accounting for the small map.
4. The wall is pretty damned high, yes.
5. I will value your opinion on gameplay when you get around to it.
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DiM
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Spockers wrote:OK just clear a couple things up, and let KEYOGI handle the rest.
1. Most importantly, of course a decent name and legend will be coming. Don't worry about that. It's the least important thing so will be added last.
great
2. There will be no details such as castles, towns etc added to the landscape. KEYOGI, I believe, has done an outstanding job of the landscape as is, as has raised the bar in the standards of the foundry.
indeed the landscape looks great but that's the prolem it's just a landscape with nothing else. i'll wait until i see the extra stuff around the map and maybe i'll change my opinion. but don't forget about the water it doesn't look like water
3. We are accounting for the small map.
i'd like to see the small map and that should be the first priority now. there's no point talking about graphics or gameplay on the large map if the small will require border changing to fit the names and army shadows
4. The wall is pretty damned high, yes.
i know this is offtopic but i'm curious why is the wall so high? what's the threat behind the wall that it needed to be so tall?
5. I will value your opinion on gameplay when you get around to it.
perhaps later today. i have the same concern as Xyl but i need to take a closer look.
“In the beginning God said, the four-dimensional divergence of an antisymmetric, second rank tensor equals zero, and there was light, and it was good. And on the seventh day he rested.”- Michio Kaku
Ok, first of all here is the map without all the garbage on it to ruin the look of it.
Now, to address some of the concerns in no particular order.
The Westeros continent is roughly the size of South America... maybe that will help put into perspective the detail. There are no strongholds, castles, citys, villages, ports, roads, etc, simply because they wouldn't be visible at the altitude the map is being represented.
I can't remember the specifics of The Wall, but I know it is 300 miles long and 700 feet tall. It's very wide as well, but I can't remember the exact width... even so a little exageration wouldn't be out of order to make it clearly visible. Not that I feel The Wall is exagerated. It is there to protect the realm to the south from the threat beyond the wall. Giants, mammoths, wildlings, others, general nastiness. Think of it as Westeros' Great Wall of China.
In regards to the water, I'm not quite sure what you expect here. It's blue, it has various shades of blue to represent depth. Again, think of the altitude.
A small map will be ready when gameplay has been decided upon. The map has been designed from the beginning with the small map in mind. If there's any minor border tweaks that need to be done on the small, they wont affect gameplay so it's irrelevant.
Believe me, I've gone through a number of fonts to find the ideal option. Yes, it's not overly interesting, but it is clear and shows up well at small sizes which is something that was very important. Besides, mix a fancy font with varying colours all over the map and it's going to look a complete mess. I already dislike how much the font detracts from the map.
Legend is only there to generate discussion about bonuses, it is in no way representative of the final design. As long as there are no major overhauls this time like a complete border redesign, I would hope to include an updated legend and the introduction of a title with the next update.
Now, to address some of the concerns in no particular order.
The Westeros continent is roughly the size of South America... maybe that will help put into perspective the detail. There are no strongholds, castles, citys, villages, ports, roads, etc, simply because they wouldn't be visible at the altitude the map is being represented.
I can't remember the specifics of The Wall, but I know it is 300 miles long and 700 feet tall. It's very wide as well, but I can't remember the exact width... even so a little exageration wouldn't be out of order to make it clearly visible. Not that I feel The Wall is exagerated. It is there to protect the realm to the south from the threat beyond the wall. Giants, mammoths, wildlings, others, general nastiness. Think of it as Westeros' Great Wall of China.
In regards to the water, I'm not quite sure what you expect here. It's blue, it has various shades of blue to represent depth. Again, think of the altitude.
A small map will be ready when gameplay has been decided upon. The map has been designed from the beginning with the small map in mind. If there's any minor border tweaks that need to be done on the small, they wont affect gameplay so it's irrelevant.
Believe me, I've gone through a number of fonts to find the ideal option. Yes, it's not overly interesting, but it is clear and shows up well at small sizes which is something that was very important. Besides, mix a fancy font with varying colours all over the map and it's going to look a complete mess. I already dislike how much the font detracts from the map.
Legend is only there to generate discussion about bonuses, it is in no way representative of the final design. As long as there are no major overhauls this time like a complete border redesign, I would hope to include an updated legend and the introduction of a title with the next update.