GO BARRY BONDS

[Gilligan]

He frickin cheated. Any MLB player can hit that many home runs on steroids.

[scarmagnet]

Bonds probably cheated. It hasn't been proven, but he probably did it, so did many others. Aaron likely cheated too, by taking amphetamines (speed). The stories are often told about the big bowl of "greenies" in the clubhouse. It is not widely discussed because everyone was doing it, but it is still an artificial boost.

Ruth was enhanced by the decision to not allow blacks to play in the majors. He never had to face that pitching. Not his choice, but still an unfair advantage.

Reports of pitchers cheating are also wide spread. Spit balls, scuffing, etc. What is not as widely discussed is pitchers using steroids. For the same reason it would help hitters, it would help pitchers (speed healing, add durability and strength).

I am no Bonds fan, but he deserves the record.

[Nephilim]

As for all the arguments go, even though it hasnt been proven, im also fairly sure Bonds was juicing. But Neph brought up a good point about juicers staying a step ahead of the people who were trying to bust them... Who's to say that Aaron was not also a step ahead of them? Not saying that's true, but look at some of the players today, like Alex Sanchez who got busted: He was not big at all, and by looking at him, no one wouldve ever guessed he used steroids. Aaron didnt gain in size either, but it could be like Sanchez.

there's just one problem w/ your arguemnt, GK. there has never been a whiff of a shred of a hint of a suggestion that Aaron cheated. compare w/ bonds, and don't say anything else about it, b/c if you do you'll look like an idiot....

and scarmagnet, your point about the difference between eras is valid. but let's remember one thing: roids, hormones, and these sorts of performance-enhancers fundamentally alter the game by actually changing the bodies of the competitors. a ton of Bonds numbers and achievements have come since 2000, when he allegedly began juicing. he has FOUR FUCKING MVP'S, consecutive no less, since 2000. his career and his production lasted far longer than they would have w/o the juice. isn't there a difference between this stuff and taking some speed pills? geez..... to say that he "deserves the record" when he really started producing after he began juicing.....it's totally absurd

there are so many other things involved in determining the "true home run king," and personally i dont' care about that particular question. in this thread the subject is the lying, cheating sorryass loser asshole that is barry bonds.

[michiganfan22]

thank you scar magnet. and gilligan anyone who takes steroids cannot in no way hit that many homers. steroids help but dont give u the god givin ability to do that.

[Gold Knight]

As for all the arguments go, even though it hasnt been proven, im also fairly sure Bonds was juicing. But Neph brought up a good point about juicers staying a step ahead of the people who were trying to bust them... Who's to say that Aaron was not also a step ahead of them? Not saying that's true, but look at some of the players today, like Alex Sanchez who got busted: He was not big at all, and by looking at him, no one wouldve ever guessed he used steroids. Aaron didnt gain in size either, but it could be like Sanchez.

there's just one problem w/ your arguemnt, GK. there has never been a whiff of a shred of a hint of a suggestion that Aaron cheated. compare w/ bonds, and don't say anything else about it, b/c if you do you'll look like an idiot....

How am I an idiot for putting out a possibility? Just because you hold Aaron as a god of baseball doesnt make him Mr. Clean. Just as scar said, there were many other performance enhancers at the time of Aaron, not just steroids. Bringing back my Snachez argument, no one suspected him of doing steroids, but he was still using them. I know it cant be proven now, but you cant dismiss that every professional athlete before this era didnt use some type of performance enhancer, no matter how small.

[riggable]

thank you scar magnet. and gilligan anyone who takes steroids cannot in no way hit that many homers. steroids help but dont give u the god givin ability to do that.

Yes, but his ability alone wouldn't have allowed him to hit that many homers either. It was because he was a great play AND he took steroids that he broke the record, thus implying that he would NOT have broken the record had he not been taking steroids and thus should NOT be given the credit.

[michiganfan22]

u dont know that he wouldnt have broken the record. he will prolly end up with 850 in the next few years. by that time he might have 756. ur talking in speculation

[misterman10]

thank you scar magnet. and gilligan anyone who takes steroids cannot in no way hit that many homers. steroids help but dont give u the god givin ability to do that.

Yes, but his ability alone wouldn't have allowed him to hit that many homers either. It was because he was a great play AND he took steroids that he broke the record, thus implying that he would NOT have broken the record had he not been taking steroids and thus should NOT be given the credit.

thats hypothetical though. I know for a fact that Bonds is on roids, but to say that he wouldn't have broken the record had he not been on steroids cannot be proved. Theres really nothing to argue here except the fact that

BARRY BONDS IS ON ROIDS

[Nephilim]

As for all the arguments go, even though it hasnt been proven, im also fairly sure Bonds was juicing. But Neph brought up a good point about juicers staying a step ahead of the people who were trying to bust them... Who's to say that Aaron was not also a step ahead of them? Not saying that's true, but look at some of the players today, like Alex Sanchez who got busted: He was not big at all, and by looking at him, no one wouldve ever guessed he used steroids. Aaron didnt gain in size either, but it could be like Sanchez.

there's just one problem w/ your arguemnt, GK. there has never been a whiff of a shred of a hint of a suggestion that Aaron cheated. compare w/ bonds, and don't say anything else about it, b/c if you do you'll look like an idiot....

How am I an idiot for putting out a possibility? Just because you hold Aaron as a god of baseball doesnt make him Mr. Clean. Just as scar said, there were many other performance enhancers at the time of Aaron, not just steroids. Bringing back my Snachez argument, no one suspected him of doing steroids, but he was still using them. I know it cant be proven now, but you cant dismiss that every professional athlete before this era didnt use some type of performance enhancer, no matter how small.

i'll tell you why you look foolish: you're not "putting out a possibility," you're making a completely unfounded assumption. You said, "Just because you hold Aaron as a god of baseball doesnt make him Mr. Clean." Sure, but look mate, just b/c you raise the specter of amphetamines doesn't mean Aaron did them. But that's exactly what you're saying. This is literally what you just said: " you cant dismiss that every professional athlete before this era didnt use some type of performance enhancer, no matter how small." first of all, that's grammatically incorrect, there's a double negative, but i know what you meant.

you're actually saying that we should assume that all players have used performance enhancers. if i'm wrong there, fine. i'll approach this differently. but the problem is, no one has ever, ever questioned Aaron on this, in any public way at all. so just b/c you raise it in this forum, it doesn't mean anything. bonds on the other hand, has a scathing and deeply researched book on his drug use. everyone knows he did it. the problem is you are comparing them. you're pretending that merely saying "well, some guys in Aaron's era used greenies" equates to lowering his achievement to the tainted level of bonds'. that, my friend, is foolishness.

[autoload]

Screw baseball. In fact, screw professional sports in general. Everyone's on roids, it's not even worth watching anymore.

[Gold Knight]

As I said, Im not denying that Bonds used steroids, and I agree the asterisks should be there next to the records. Im also not saying I know for a fact that Aaron used any enhancers. But the reason Aaron wasnt question on these types of things is because he is not in the Steroid Era that we are in now. Its rediculous nowadays, that anyone who has an ounce of muscle mass and can hit a HR is accused of using steroids. Once again, not saying Aaron cheated at all, but if he played in the game today and had the stats that he had, there would be NO QUESTION that he would be speculated for using some sort of performance enhancer.

But today, theres no way to prove any of that shit, and im sure Aaron wouldnt say anything to ruin the reputation he has now. People respect him more now that he is second on the list, just out of pure hate for Bonds. nd for the last time, I am NOT accusing Aaron of doing any of these, but it is not wrong to question this in a sport where so many advantages can be taken.

[Nephilim]

fair enough, but you did more than question. that's the point of the argument