Why is America at war

Bigfalcon65 · Post by **Bigfalcon65** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:21 am

OnlyAmbrose wrote:
Bigfalcon65 wrote:
sfhbballnut wrote:a lot of the bad stuff that happens comes from spineless politicians who are so concerned about their position tha they won't do waht need to be done, which is why I have marginal respect for Bush because he's stuck to what he believes is right throughout. He's made mistakes but he's still shown the smallest bit of spine, which is more than most politicians can say
Except for Lenin and Stalin, they did exactly what they said they were gonna do
GO COMMUNISM
Stalin told the Russian people that he would kill more people than the Nazis? Riiiiiight...

Russian communism was just capitalism gone wild. In capitalism, you have the moneyed elite (successful entrepreneurs), a middle class which gets smaller as the moneyed elite gets richer (the elite suck wealth from the middle class and force them into poverty), and a poor lower class.

In communism, the above process just gets sped up. The middle class disappears, and the moneyed elite gets smaller, but richer. So you have an unimaginably wealthy upper class and an equal, but equally impoverished, lower class. Capitalism on steroids, as it were. Kind of ironic.

Sorry, but if you're making a case for communism, Stalin and the Soviet Union aren't factors you're going to want to use to make a case.

Not to mention it's universally agreed among historians that Stalin was one of the most power-hungry dictators out there...

Typical american, cant read, i never siad i liked stalin or said anything about my beleif about communism, i merely said that stalin at least said what he was going to do, turn the soviet union into a super power.

Bigfalcon65 · Post by **Bigfalcon65** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:22 am

SKETRS wrote:
Bigfalcon65 wrote:
sfhbballnut wrote:
unriggable wrote:
sfhbballnut wrote:America isn't at war with any counry, there's a war on terrorism in the middle east but as far as a country to country war America isn't in one

There's also our military presence in Iraq, but they're helping to train the new army/police force and supporting the new government, not at war
Not really, they're taking casualties on a daily basis, I'd say that's war.
America hasn't declared war on any particular country, troops are being killed in the middle east, but not by an army from a country, it mostly terrorist and extremists who hate america or just the fact that the troops are there
soory buddy but we declared war on iraq, we havnt declared surrender or victory, we're still in it
Why do you say "WE" thought you were a communist russian?? And GW should be thrown in jail about as lame as it comes. That's like saying you should be thrown in jail you hater.

Why because i happen to beleive in another government? Do you even know what communism is and not just what your ass teachers say?

heavycola · Post by **heavycola** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:24 am

what's an ass teacher? Can I have one?

Bigfalcon65 · Post by **Bigfalcon65** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:25 am

s.xkitten wrote:
Anarchist wrote:war on drugs
war on poverty

and a few others.
meh...last time i checked, according to our constitution, you can't declare war on an 'idea' such as terrorism, drugs, or poverty...it has to be a nation, or race of people...oh well...Bush didn't get that memo...

Ever hear of the flexability of the constitution, how is that i know more about your flimsy government than you do?

Bigfalcon65 · Post by **Bigfalcon65** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:29 am

OnlyAmbrose wrote:
Anarchist wrote:Not at all, Anarchism is dedicated to freethinking
Then modern communism isn't for you

Though I'll concede that modern communist nations are a far cry from Marx's original dream.

For this you are correct, there have not been and model marxist governments, even the government of the USSR wasnt, though any socailist government shows certain bit and pieces of it, karl marx laid a framework for communism, though we dont follow it to the letter its what we are based off of. Much like the articles of confederation of your country?

Bigfalcon65 · Post by **Bigfalcon65** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:31 am

luns101 wrote:
Anarchist wrote:Modern Communism is something critically flawed and should be abandoned as a possible system, just like capitalism and organised religion.
Not that I agree with you, Anarchist. I just thought you would enjoy this quote from John Kenneth Galbraith...

"Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite."

i have heard this quote, and although i will admit each goverment has their flaws, communism will fail just like capatalism, i beleive anark will agree with me, let us look for more socailist movments like the one in south america.

dyingfetus · Post by **dyingfetus** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:40 am

I havent really been following allong in this thread, but you know, according to american government, we havent been in a "war" since WWII, only colnflicts. Can't say I agree with them. We need more people like Micheal Moore in this country!

Stopper · Post by **Stopper** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:13 pm

Anarchist wrote:Modern Communism is something critically flawed and should be abandoned as a possible system, just like capitalism and organised religion.

Bigfalcon65 wrote:communism will fail just like capatalism

Hello, time-travellers-from-before-1989.

Guiscard · Post by **Guiscard** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:46 pm

Stopper wrote:
Anarchist wrote:Modern Communism is something critically flawed and should be abandoned as a possible system, just like capitalism and organised religion.

Bigfalcon65 wrote:communism will fail just like capatalism
Hello, time-travellers-from-before-1989.

Just a few tips... get rid of your shoulder-pads before the 90s (not a good look) and sell your British stocks and shares before September 1992...

Black Warior · Post by **Black Warior** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:47 pm

Long live the communist system comrades, because in some parts it has assured industry development and economical in some points of view !

GeneralUnderhill · Post by **GeneralUnderhill** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:27 pm

dyingfetus wrote:I havent really been following allong in this thread, but you know, according to american government, we havent been in a "war" since WWII,

Um..."Korean War"..."Viet Nam War"...

dyingfetus wrote:only colnflicts.

And the difference is...?

dyingfetus wrote:Can't say I agree with them. We need more people like Micheal Moore in this country!

Michael Moore is a socialist dumbass.

Black Warior wrote:Long live the communist system comrades, because in some parts it has assured industry development and economical in some points of view !

Real communism only works in a hunter/gatherer society, such as various American Indian tribes, Gallic villages, etc.

s.xkitten · Post by **s.xkitten** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:37 pm

GeneralUnderhill wrote:
dyingfetus wrote:I havent really been following allong in this thread, but you know, according to american government, we havent been in a "war" since WWII,

Um..."Korean War"..."Viet Nam War"...

Korean War- Police action- sorry, it wasn't ever declared a war...

Vietnam War- conflict- once again, never declared a war by congress...

Jenos Ridan · Post by **Jenos Ridan** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:06 am

dyingfetus wrote:I havent really been following allong in this thread, but you know, according to american government, we havent been in a "war" since WWII, only colnflicts. Can't say I agree with them. We need more people like Micheal Moore in this country!

Last 'war' the US was in was Vietnam. Before that, Korea. And those were 'undeclared' wars. The last 'declared' war was WWII. Just a matter of technicallity.

Neutrino · Post by **Neutrino** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:19 am

GeneralUnderhill wrote:
dyingfetus wrote:Can't say I agree with them. We need more people like Micheal Moore in this country!
Michael Moore is a socialist dumbass.

I like how the words "socialist" and "dumbass" are linked

Jenos Ridan · Post by **Jenos Ridan** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:22 am

Neutrino wrote:
GeneralUnderhill wrote:
dyingfetus wrote:Can't say I agree with them. We need more people like Micheal Moore in this country!
Michael Moore is a socialist dumbass.

I like how the words "socialist" and "dumbass" are linked

I like how you disagree.

Still, I call it as the General sees it.

GeneralUnderhill · Post by **GeneralUnderhill** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:13 am

s.xkitten wrote:
GeneralUnderhill wrote:
dyingfetus wrote:I havent really been following allong in this thread, but you know, according to american government, we havent been in a "war" since WWII,

Um..."Korean War"..."Viet Nam War"...
Korean War- Police action- sorry, it wasn't ever declared a war...

Vietnam War- conflict- once again, never declared a war by congress...

And yet they still involved people shooting each other for the interests of old overlords and large numbers of civilian deaths.

Neutrino wrote: I like how the words "socialist" and "dumbass" are linked

So do I.

Dmunster · Post by **Dmunster** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:29 am

Bigfalcon65 wrote:
Stopper wrote:
cena-rules wrote:i hope he wrecks the britain and america trucey thingy
Hmm, he's a renowned Americophile, and he was in favour of Trident. I think the britain and america trucey thingy is probably here to stay.
Of course it is, we're the only 2 countries that somewhat think alike, kick ass and then ask a question or 2.

Didnt you say in another thread that you lived in Russia?

Guiscard · Post by **Guiscard** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:59 pm

Dmunster wrote:
Bigfalcon65 wrote:
Stopper wrote:
cena-rules wrote:i hope he wrecks the britain and america trucey thingy
Hmm, he's a renowned Americophile, and he was in favour of Trident. I think the britain and america trucey thingy is probably here to stay.
Of course it is, we're the only 2 countries that somewhat think alike, kick ass and then ask a question or 2.
Didnt you say in another thread that you lived in Russia?

OnlyAmbrose · Post by **OnlyAmbrose** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:09 pm

Bigfalcon65 wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:
Bigfalcon65 wrote:
sfhbballnut wrote:a lot of the bad stuff that happens comes from spineless politicians who are so concerned about their position tha they won't do waht need to be done, which is why I have marginal respect for Bush because he's stuck to what he believes is right throughout. He's made mistakes but he's still shown the smallest bit of spine, which is more than most politicians can say
Except for Lenin and Stalin, they did exactly what they said they were gonna do
GO COMMUNISM
Stalin told the Russian people that he would kill more people than the Nazis? Riiiiiight...

Russian communism was just capitalism gone wild. In capitalism, you have the moneyed elite (successful entrepreneurs), a middle class which gets smaller as the moneyed elite gets richer (the elite suck wealth from the middle class and force them into poverty), and a poor lower class.

In communism, the above process just gets sped up. The middle class disappears, and the moneyed elite gets smaller, but richer. So you have an unimaginably wealthy upper class and an equal, but equally impoverished, lower class. Capitalism on steroids, as it were. Kind of ironic.

Sorry, but if you're making a case for communism, Stalin and the Soviet Union aren't factors you're going to want to use to make a case.

Not to mention it's universally agreed among historians that Stalin was one of the most power-hungry dictators out there...
Typical american, cant read, i never siad i liked stalin or said anything about my beleif about communism, i merely said that stalin at least said what he was going to do, turn the soviet union into a super power.

And that's not what every leader would love to promise? Come on, man, if you're making a case for Stalin's political trustworthiness on the grounds that he promised to make Russia a superpower and then did it, you need to reassess your stance.

Bigfalcon65 wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:
Anarchist wrote:Not at all, Anarchism is dedicated to freethinking
Then modern communism isn't for you

Though I'll concede that modern communist nations are a far cry from Marx's original dream.
For this you are correct, there have not been and model marxist governments, even the government of the USSR wasnt, though any socailist government shows certain bit and pieces of it, karl marx laid a framework for communism, though we dont follow it to the letter its what we are based off of. Much like the articles of confederation of your country?

Flawed parallel.

If the United States followed the Articles of Confederation to the letter, it would have collapsed.

If Russia had followed Marx's theory to the letter, it would have been a very nice place to live. Too bad we know that wasn't the case.

Unfortunately, Marx's theory seems to be based on the idea that peaceful and noncompetitive cohabitation is possible... which flaws it from the start.

Look at the most successful "communist" (and I use that term very loosely) country in the world. China. It was once said that the communist Chinese have become better capitalists than we have.

Sorry, man, modern communism is dying as nations slowly open their markets (a la China) and pure communism is just a really nice dream.

Stopper wrote:
Anarchist wrote:Modern Communism is something critically flawed and should be abandoned as a possible system, just like capitalism and organised religion.

Bigfalcon65 wrote:communism will fail just like capatalism
Hello, time-travellers-from-before-1989.

heh heh

Stopper · Post by **Stopper** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:12 pm

cena-rules wrote:the britain and america trucey thingy

Hehe, that made me laugh when first he said that. He has the right idea, but it's the way he expresses it.

Jenos Ridan · Post by **Jenos Ridan** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:09 am

Well, they DID follow the Manifesto to the letter. Everything was seized forbably by the Dictatorship of the Proletriat.

And War, as described in numerous international treaties, including the Geneva Conventions, is a state of declared aggression between two or more belligerents. War, as it was understood for millienia before, is simply violence on a mass scale.

The so-called 'wars' the US is fighting in the Middle East are nothing compared to the violence in Vietnam. Nowhere near as bloody. Or Korea. Or either of the World Wars. Or the US Civil War. I could list many real wars here that trump the piddling 'War in Iraq'.

spurgistan · Post by **spurgistan** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:28 pm

Iraqis would beg to differ with that assertion, Jenos. Although seeing as over 2 million people died in the Vietnam conflict as opposed to mere hundreds of thousands in this one, the comparison between now and then isn't perfect.

Jenos Ridan · Post by **Jenos Ridan** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:20 am

spurgistan wrote:Iraqis would beg to differ with that assertion, Jenos. Although seeing as over 2 million people died in the Vietnam conflict as opposed to mere hundreds of thousands in this one, the comparison between now and then isn't perfect.

The 'war' in Iraq has been going on for decades. The Saddam regime was a brief period of quasi-peace imposed by one of the more dominant feuding tribes. The number of Iraqis by Coalition forces are low, thanks to proper Rules of Engagement (which neither terrorists nor insurgents follow, hiding behind hapless civilians. The previous ruler did no better.) and ever improving technology. I heard that the streets of New York were less safe than most of Iraq. Something on the order of 400+ murders a day. Further, other than a few minor sieges, no pitched battles that come to mind.

In every defining point that I would catagorize with, it's not a war as I understand it. More like the actions of an occupying force or a 'police action'. If that don't suit you, then hooray for you. You can have your opinions and I can have mind.