Debate here if you doubt Jesus is the Creator of the universe born in flesh

[HitRed]

Heard

Do my will. - God

Then He talked about the Prophets.

[Apatheist]

According to Catholic doctrine, entry into heaven is primarily reserved for those who die in God's grace and friendship, fully purified. This includes individuals who have accepted Christ's redemption and lived according to His teachings. The Church teaches that salvation is possible for all, including non-Catholics, as long as their lives conform to the ways of the Lord.

Apparently not jimboston's priest, though! Perhaps he was ordained via an online route...or just in it for the "benefits".
Thanks jp. That makes more sense. That means I don't need to believe in a religion, just behave myself, which I do (mostly). Just looking at the commandments, there's a bit of a grey area on 3 and 4, and I was involved in number 7 (though I wasn't the married one), but 7/10 is pretty good, isn't it?

"Who am I to Judge?" ---- Pope Francis

I do not judge. I have my opinions, but do not claim to judge who is worthy.

I should applaud you for trying to be a good person; I think that is your claim here.

Thank you.
I think I qualify as one of the "blessed peacemakers" as it happens. We'll see...

[Dukasaur]

According to Catholic doctrine, entry into heaven is primarily reserved for those who die in God's grace and friendship, fully purified. This includes individuals who have accepted Christ's redemption and lived according to His teachings. The Church teaches that salvation is possible for all, including non-Catholics, as long as their lives conform to the ways of the Lord.

Apparently not jimboston's priest, though! Perhaps he was ordained via an online route...or just in it for the "benefits".
Thanks jp. That makes more sense. That means I don't need to believe in a religion, just behave myself, which I do (mostly). Just looking at the commandments, there's a bit of a grey area on 3 and 4, and I was involved in number 7 (though I wasn't the married one), but 7/10 is pretty good, isn't it?
BTW I think the "shalt not kill" should have the words "people deliberately" on the end, since everyone has accidentally trodden on a snail or swatted a fly, haven't they? Plus, we're allowed to eat meat and fish, and someone has to kill those.

Jimboston is right.

The teaching of the Church is pretty clear. Although it might be possible to attain salvation if you've never heard of the Church, once you have heard of the Church and choose to reject it, you cannot be saved.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print ... -scriptura

We must have a proper understanding of what the Church means when it teaches it is possible—although not preferable nor easy—to be saved without being a card-carrying member of the Catholic Church. Does it mean that “I’m okay, you’re okay” and that we can dispense with the uncomfortable business of evangelizing non-Catholics? Or does it mean that all religions are equally valid with truth being in the eye of the beholder? Not according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which states, “Outside the Church there is no salvation” (CCC 846).

“How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?” the Catechism continues. “Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the head through the Church, which is his body: . . . the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it” (CCC 846–847).

[jimboston]

I said non-Catholic Christians can go to Heaven. (Go back and look at what I wrote.)
It’s non-Christians who can’t.

A practicing Lutheran for example is Christian and therefore has indeed “Accepted Christ in his Heart”. So he fulfills that “requirement:”.

JP you need to work on your reading comprehension.

[Apatheist]

I said non-Catholic Christians can go to Heaven. (Go back and look at what I wrote.)
It’s non-Christians who can’t.

A practicing Lutheran for example is Christian and therefore has indeed “Accepted Christ in his Heart”. So he fulfills that “requirement:”.

JP you need to work on your reading comprehension.

Does that include pre-Christians?

[jonesthecurl]

...and what is the reason for Confession if it's not to receive forgiveness? I thought you couldn't go to heaven if you hadn't confessed. (Honest question, not a dig)

[Apatheist]

...and what is the reason for Confession if it's not to receive forgiveness? I thought you couldn't go to heaven if you hadn't confessed. (Honest question, not a dig)

I find this a bit odd too. They are supposed to like, indeed prefer, sinners who repent, so that suggests that sinning and repenting is better that not sinning at all, which implies that we're meant to sin - perhaps that's why Catholic priests tend to lead the way in this area...

There's a place near me where they punish sinners. It's only a stone's throw away.

[jimboston]

I said non-Catholic Christians can go to Heaven. (Go back and look at what I wrote.)
It’s non-Christians who can’t.

A practicing Lutheran for example is Christian and therefore has indeed “Accepted Christ in his Heart”. So he fulfills that “requirement:”.

JP you need to work on your reading comprehension.

Does that include pre-Christians?

Already answered. Nope… they gotta sit in Purgatory and wait til the End ‘O Time.

[jimboston]

...and what is the reason for Confession if it's not to receive forgiveness? I thought you couldn't go to heaven if you hadn't confessed. (Honest question, not a dig)

You are correct, you must repent and receive absolution. The Catholic Church wanted to control this very important step and so therefore Catholics are required to go through Priest to get forgiveness. This was one of the big problems which led to the Protestant faiths breaking off, they prefer a direct connection to God.

Technically you could’ve gone to Confession, received forgiveness and been all set… then go drive home and on the way home you see a hot chick and you get a little “lustful” in your heart, maybe commit some Coveting of Thy Neighbor’s Wife (assume she’s married). As you Covet you take your eyes off the road and smash into a tree and die. Technically, as I understand it following the “rules” explained to me my whole life, you’d now be barred from direct entry into Heaven.

Some ambiguity here… I think they let you chill in Purgatory till enough people have said enough prayers on your behalf to wash away that little bit of leftover sin.

[jimboston]

...and what is the reason for Confession if it's not to receive forgiveness? I thought you couldn't go to heaven if you hadn't confessed. (Honest question, not a dig)

I find this a bit odd too. They are supposed to like, indeed prefer, sinners who repent, so that suggests that sinning and repenting is better that not sinning at all, which implies that we're meant to sin - perhaps that's why Catholic priests tend to lead the way in this area...

There's a place near me where they punish sinners. It's only a stone's throw away.

There’s NO SUCH THING as “not sinning at all”.

Firstly, we are all born with Original Sin… blame that bitch Eve for that.

Even without that, the Lord knows we are just puny humans and we are gonna sin. It’s basically impossible to NOT sin.
It’s not about “not sinning”… it’s about trying to avoid sinning and doing your best, and then asking for forgiveness.

… and of course it’s about Loving Jesus and donating to the Church too.

[Apatheist]

...and what is the reason for Confession if it's not to receive forgiveness? I thought you couldn't go to heaven if you hadn't confessed. (Honest question, not a dig)

You are correct, you must repent and receive absolution. The Catholic Church wanted to control this very important step and so therefore Catholics are required to go through Priest to get forgiveness. This was one of the big problems which led to the Protestant faiths breaking off, they prefer a direct connection to God.

Yes, but only one of them.
Martin Luther objected to the Catholic Church's sale of indulgences (paying money to reduce punishment for sins), the corruption and wealth of church leaders, and the supreme authority of the Pope. He argued that salvation comes through faith alone (sola fide) rather than good works.
The plurality of certain relics [EDIT: just checked. 139 crowns of thorns, 36 nails (only 4 would have been used), and as Luther is supposed to have said, enough bits of the cross to build a house] also added to the feeling that the church was just there to make money for those who ran it.

Who'd have thought?

[jimboston]

Apathy… what do you mean “Yes but only one of them.”. Maybe I am missing the point?

Lutheranism was the first big break from Catholicism in the “European Enlightenment” period, it started a revolution that lead to other groups separating from Rome. The other groups all had different “reasons”, but I believe most “Protestant” groups believe in direct communion with God for the forgiveness of sins.

Google search told me only Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox faiths require a priest’s intervention. Both of the Orthodox faiths separated from Rome before the Protestant Revolution in Europe.

[jonesthecurl]

...and what is the reason for Confession if it's not to receive forgiveness? I thought you couldn't go to heaven if you hadn't confessed. (Honest question, not a dig)

You are correct, you must repent and receive absolution. The Catholic Church wanted to control this very important step and so therefore Catholics are required to go through Priest to get forgiveness. This was one of the big problems which led to the Protestant faiths breaking off, they prefer a direct connection to God.

Technically you could’ve gone to Confession, received forgiveness and been all set… then go drive home and on the way home you see a hot chick and you get a little “lustful” in your heart, maybe commit some Coveting of Thy Neighbor’s Wife (assume she’s married). As you Covet you take your eyes off the road and smash into a tree and die. Technically, as I understand it following the “rules” explained to me my whole life, you’d now be barred from direct entry into Heaven.

Some ambiguity here… I think they let you chill in Purgatory till enough people have said enough prayers on your behalf to wash away that little bit of leftover sin.

But Purgatory isn't in the Bible.
Incidentally, I think one of the most absurd things ever was kings and rich folks endowing monasteries to pray for them after they were dead so they could get out of Purgatory faster - i.e. buy their way into Heaven. Nice one, church.

[jusplay4fun]

...and what is the reason for Confession if it's not to receive forgiveness? I thought you couldn't go to heaven if you hadn't confessed. (Honest question, not a dig)

You are correct, you must repent and receive absolution. The Catholic Church wanted to control this very important step and so therefore Catholics are required to go through Priest to get forgiveness. This was one of the big problems which led to the Protestant faiths breaking off, they prefer a direct connection to God.

Technically you could’ve gone to Confession, received forgiveness and been all set… then go drive home and on the way home you see a hot chick and you get a little “lustful” in your heart, maybe commit some Coveting of Thy Neighbor’s Wife (assume she’s married). As you Covet you take your eyes off the road and smash into a tree and die. Technically, as I understand it following the “rules” explained to me my whole life, you’d now be barred from direct entry into Heaven.

Some ambiguity here… I think they let you chill in Purgatory till enough people have said enough prayers on your behalf to wash away that little bit of leftover sin.

But Purgatory isn't in the Bible.
Incidentally, I think one of the most absurd things ever was kings and rich folks endowing monasteries to pray for them after they were dead so they could get out of Purgatory faster - i.e. buy their way into Heaven. Nice one, church.

Correct, Purgatory is NOT mentioned in the Bible; Puragotry is based on a passage in 2 Maccabees where the living pray for the Dead.

2 Maccabees 12:38-45
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition
Prayers for Those Killed in Battle
38 Then Judas assembled his army and went to the city of Adul′lam. As the seventh day was coming on, they purified themselves according to the custom, and they kept the sabbath there.

39 On the next day, as by that time it had become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kinsmen in the sepulchres of their fathers. 40 Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jam′nia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. 41 So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; 42 and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. 43 He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. 44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

and, in complete transparency:

The books of Maccabees are not included in the Protestant Bible. They are considered part of the Apocrypha, which is accepted in the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox traditions but excluded by most Protestant denominations

AI Summary

[Apatheist]

Apathy… what do you mean “Yes but only one of them.”. Maybe I am missing the point?

Lutheranism was the first big break from Catholicism in the “European Enlightenment” period, it started a revolution that lead to other groups separating from Rome. The other groups all had different “reasons”, but I believe most “Protestant” groups believe in direct communion with God for the forgiveness of sins.

Google search told me only Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox faiths require a priest’s intervention. Both of the Orthodox faiths separated from Rome before the Protestant Revolution in Europe.

You said

This was one of the big problems which led to the Protestant faiths breaking off, they prefer a direct connection to God.

I was agreeing that it was one of the problems - but only one of them, hence I mentioned a couple of others that I think were major reasons for his objections to what the Catholic church was doing. I didn't feel the need to list all 95

[Dukasaur]

...and what is the reason for Confession if it's not to receive forgiveness? I thought you couldn't go to heaven if you hadn't confessed. (Honest question, not a dig)

You are correct, you must repent and receive absolution. The Catholic Church wanted to control this very important step and so therefore Catholics are required to go through Priest to get forgiveness. This was one of the big problems which led to the Protestant faiths breaking off, they prefer a direct connection to God.

Yes, but only one of them.
Martin Luther objected to the Catholic Church's sale of indulgences (paying money to reduce punishment for sins), the corruption and wealth of church leaders, and the supreme authority of the Pope. He argued that salvation comes through faith alone (sola fide) rather than good works.
The plurality of certain relics [EDIT: just checked. 139 crowns of thorns, 36 nails (only 4 would have been used), and as Luther is supposed to have said, enough bits of the cross to build a house] also added to the feeling that the church was just there to make money for those who ran it.

Who'd have thought?

I say it's good.

The Church is the greatest patron the arts have ever known.

If some drunken pig in Strasbourg goes and fucks his neighbour's wife, and tomorrow he donates four pieces of gold to the Church because he's feeling guilty, and the Church uses that to paint a beautiful fresco in the Vatican, I'm all in favour. I'd much rather see the money used to create something beautiful than left in the hands of the bourgeois pigs to commit more acts of debauchery.

[Apatheist]

...and what is the reason for Confession if it's not to receive forgiveness? I thought you couldn't go to heaven if you hadn't confessed. (Honest question, not a dig)

You are correct, you must repent and receive absolution. The Catholic Church wanted to control this very important step and so therefore Catholics are required to go through Priest to get forgiveness. This was one of the big problems which led to the Protestant faiths breaking off, they prefer a direct connection to God.

Yes, but only one of them.
Martin Luther objected to the Catholic Church's sale of indulgences (paying money to reduce punishment for sins), the corruption and wealth of church leaders, and the supreme authority of the Pope. He argued that salvation comes through faith alone (sola fide) rather than good works.
The plurality of certain relics [EDIT: just checked. 139 crowns of thorns, 36 nails (only 4 would have been used), and as Luther is supposed to have said, enough bits of the cross to build a house] also added to the feeling that the church was just there to make money for those who ran it.

Who'd have thought?

I say it's good.

The Church is the greatest patron the arts have ever known.

If some drunken pig in Strasbourg goes and fucks his neighbour's wife, and tomorrow he donates four pieces of gold to the Church because he's feeling guilty, and the Church uses that to paint a beautiful fresco in the Vatican, I'm all in favour. I'd much rather see the money used to create something beautiful than left in the hands of the bourgeois pigs to commit more acts of debauchery.

That's a pretty big IF, Duk. What if the church person uses it to buy the favours of a prostitute or an under-age child, or to support his own illegitimate children? The Borgias, for example - a "celibate" Pope with at least 7, possibly 10 children.

Elected in 1492, Alexander VI secured the papacy by bribing cardinals and leveraging foreign influences. His wealth and political sway allowed him to brazenly flout the rules of the church without facing immediate consequences.

I appreciate he's an extreme example, but like many in power, he got away with everything he could or was allowed to.

It's also the fact that these clerics promised all sorts of things in return for this money that they were in no position to give.

[jusplay4fun]

In another irony, some of the worst abuses of the Catholic Church is the money spent on lavish vestments worn by a few Popes, and their residencies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Borgia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fontana_dei_Quattro_Fiumi

Also, some Popes "splurged" or "wasted money" on Arts and works of Art. HOWEVER, when I went to Europe in 2019, I wanted to see many of those works of Art: The Pieta and David by Michelangelo, the Sistine Chapel (Ceiling and Art behind the main Altar), and the beautiful Churches in Rome, London, Paris, and more. (I also went to Venice, Florence, and Lucerne, Switzerland.) I visited several Churches in Ireland and Scotland, too, (2025) including the ruins of St. Andrews in Scotland, now famous for Golf.

Many others also visit these sites to view the wonderful Art and sights.

WhiIe in Scotland, I also saw Christ of Saint John of the Cross painting. It is AMAZING.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_of ... _the_Cross

[jimboston]

...and what is the reason for Confession if it's not to receive forgiveness? I thought you couldn't go to heaven if you hadn't confessed. (Honest question, not a dig)

You are correct, you must repent and receive absolution. The Catholic Church wanted to control this very important step and so therefore Catholics are required to go through Priest to get forgiveness. This was one of the big problems which led to the Protestant faiths breaking off, they prefer a direct connection to God.

Technically you could’ve gone to Confession, received forgiveness and been all set… then go drive home and on the way home you see a hot chick and you get a little “lustful” in your heart, maybe commit some Coveting of Thy Neighbor’s Wife (assume she’s married). As you Covet you take your eyes off the road and smash into a tree and die. Technically, as I understand it following the “rules” explained to me my whole life, you’d now be barred from direct entry into Heaven.

Some ambiguity here… I think they let you chill in Purgatory till enough people have said enough prayers on your behalf to wash away that little bit of leftover sin.

But Purgatory isn't in the Bible.
Incidentally, I think one of the most absurd things ever was kings and rich folks endowing monasteries to pray for them after they were dead so they could get out of Purgatory faster - i.e. buy their way into Heaven. Nice one, church.

I don’t think tithing was in the Bible either.

When did something being in the bible or not ever impact the Roman Catholic Church from doing whatever it felt was in its’ best interest?

[jimboston]

Apathy… what do you mean “Yes but only one of them.”. Maybe I am missing the point?

Lutheranism was the first big break from Catholicism in the “European Enlightenment” period, it started a revolution that lead to other groups separating from Rome. The other groups all had different “reasons”, but I believe most “Protestant” groups believe in direct communion with God for the forgiveness of sins.

Google search told me only Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox faiths require a priest’s intervention. Both of the Orthodox faiths separated from Rome before the Protestant Revolution in Europe.

You said

This was one of the big problems which led to the Protestant faiths breaking off, they prefer a direct connection to God.

I was agreeing that it was one of the problems - but only one of them, hence I mentioned a couple of others that I think were major reasons for his objections to what the Catholic church was doing. I didn't feel the need to list all 95

Got it… I was just focussing on Contrition as that was the question asked.

[jimboston]

...and what is the reason for Confession if it's not to receive forgiveness? I thought you couldn't go to heaven if you hadn't confessed. (Honest question, not a dig)

You are correct, you must repent and receive absolution. The Catholic Church wanted to control this very important step and so therefore Catholics are required to go through Priest to get forgiveness. This was one of the big problems which led to the Protestant faiths breaking off, they prefer a direct connection to God.

Technically you could’ve gone to Confession, received forgiveness and been all set… then go drive home and on the way home you see a hot chick and you get a little “lustful” in your heart, maybe commit some Coveting of Thy Neighbor’s Wife (assume she’s married). As you Covet you take your eyes off the road and smash into a tree and die. Technically, as I understand it following the “rules” explained to me my whole life, you’d now be barred from direct entry into Heaven.

Some ambiguity here… I think they let you chill in Purgatory till enough people have said enough prayers on your behalf to wash away that little bit of leftover sin.

But Purgatory isn't in the Bible.
Incidentally, I think one of the most absurd things ever was kings and rich folks endowing monasteries to pray for them after they were dead so they could get out of Purgatory faster - i.e. buy their way into Heaven. Nice one, church.

Correct, Purgatory is NOT mentioned in the Bible; Puragotry is based on a passage in 2 Maccabees where the living pray for the Dead.

2 Maccabees 12:38-45
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition
Prayers for Those Killed in Battle
38 Then Judas assembled his army and went to the city of Adul′lam. As the seventh day was coming on, they purified themselves according to the custom, and they kept the sabbath there.

39 On the next day, as by that time it had become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kinsmen in the sepulchres of their fathers. 40 Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jam′nia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. 41 So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; 42 and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. 43 He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. 44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

and, in complete transparency:

The books of Maccabees are not included in the Protestant Bible. They are considered part of the Apocrypha, which is accepted in the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox traditions but excluded by most Protestant denominations

AI Summary

Good thing we have JP4 to cut & paste AI answers here!

[jimboston]

I say it's good.

The Church is the greatest patron the arts have ever known.

If some drunken pig in Strasbourg goes and fucks his neighbour's wife, and tomorrow he donates four pieces of gold to the Church because he's feeling guilty, and the Church uses that to paint a beautiful fresco in the Vatican, I'm all in favour. I'd much rather see the money used to create something beautiful than left in the hands of the bourgeois pigs to commit more acts of debauchery.

I mean in this one example the transfer of wealth may have been beneficial.

That said Church Leaders didn’t JUST use the money to create art and copy books.

They used it to suppress independent thought, torture non-believers, and wage war in “The Holy Land”.

They also used it to enrich themselves and commit their own act of debauchery.
Catholic Leaders were essentially their own class of bourgeois pigs.

[jimboston]

...and what is the reason for Confession if it's not to receive forgiveness? I thought you couldn't go to heaven if you hadn't confessed. (Honest question, not a dig)

You are correct, you must repent and receive absolution. The Catholic Church wanted to control this very important step and so therefore Catholics are required to go through Priest to get forgiveness. This was one of the big problems which led to the Protestant faiths breaking off, they prefer a direct connection to God.

Yes, but only one of them.
Martin Luther objected to the Catholic Church's sale of indulgences (paying money to reduce punishment for sins), the corruption and wealth of church leaders, and the supreme authority of the Pope. He argued that salvation comes through faith alone (sola fide) rather than good works.
The plurality of certain relics [EDIT: just checked. 139 crowns of thorns, 36 nails (only 4 would have been used), and as Luther is supposed to have said, enough bits of the cross to build a house] also added to the feeling that the church was just there to make money for those who ran it.

Who'd have thought?

I say it's good.

The Church is the greatest patron the arts have ever known.

If some drunken pig in Strasbourg goes and fucks his neighbour's wife, and tomorrow he donates four pieces of gold to the Church because he's feeling guilty, and the Church uses that to paint a beautiful fresco in the Vatican, I'm all in favour. I'd much rather see the money used to create something beautiful than left in the hands of the bourgeois pigs to commit more acts of debauchery.

That's a pretty big IF, Duk. What if the church person uses it to buy the favours of a prostitute or an under-age child, or to support his own illegitimate children? The Borgias, for example - a "celibate" Pope with at least 7, possibly 10 children.

Elected in 1492, Alexander VI secured the papacy by bribing cardinals and leveraging foreign influences. His wealth and political sway allowed him to brazenly flout the rules of the church without facing immediate consequences.

I appreciate he's an extreme example, but like many in power, he got away with everything he could or was allowed to.

It's also the fact that these clerics promised all sorts of things in return for this money that they were in no position to give.

Aaaaa… you beat me to it.

[jimboston]

In another irony, some of the worst abuses of the Catholic Church is the money spent on lavish vestments worn by a few Popes, and their residencies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Borgia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fontana_dei_Quattro_Fiumi

Also, some Popes "splurged" or "wasted money" on Arts and works of Art. HOWEVER, when I went to Europe in 2019, I wanted to see many of those works of Art: The Pieta and David by Michelangelo, the Sistine Chapel (Ceiling and Art behind the main Altar), and the beautiful Churches in Rome, London, Paris, and more. (I also went to Venice, Florence, and Lucerne, Switzerland.) I visited several Churches in Ireland and Scotland, too, (2025) including the ruins of St. Andrews in Scotland, now famous for Golf.

Many others also visit these sites to view the wonderful Art and sights.

WhiIe in Scotland, I also saw Christ of Saint John of the Cross painting. It is AMAZING.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_of ... _the_Cross

What would you do without AI? You’d have Wikipedia, so all’s well.

[jusplay4fun]

In another irony, some of the worst abuses of the Catholic Church is the money spent on lavish vestments worn by a few Popes, and their residencies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Borgia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fontana_dei_Quattro_Fiumi

Also, some Popes "splurged" or "wasted money" on Arts and works of Art. HOWEVER, when I went to Europe in 2019, I wanted to see many of those works of Art: The Pieta and David by Michelangelo, the Sistine Chapel (Ceiling and Art behind the main Altar), and the beautiful Churches in Rome, London, Paris, and more. (I also went to Venice, Florence, and Lucerne, Switzerland.) I visited several Churches in Ireland and Scotland, too, (2025) including the ruins of St. Andrews in Scotland, now famous for Golf.

Many others also visit these sites to view the wonderful Art and sights.

WhiIe in Scotland, I also saw Christ of Saint John of the Cross painting. It is AMAZING.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_of ... _the_Cross

What would you do without AI? You’d have Wikipedia, so all’s well.

YES, All is well with me. THANKS..!

And what do you use? At least I use facts, prove it, and do not make assumptions.

And I have travelled, outside of my state. Have you?

I do things to help others. Do you?