Debate here if you doubt Jesus is the Creator of the universe born in flesh

[mookiemcgee]

a) The DC Universe has over 4000 fictions characters… what’s your point?
b) Says YOU… maybe I say otherwise, and since I’m GODI think I’d know better.
c) Please Science! You’re using something as mundane as science to refute ME?
Science is just a false construct created by the Devil, I just allow it to exist to Test Your Faith. Duh!
You’ve obviously failed that test!

Very interesting you bring up DC, because it had many 'gods' (The new gods from the 4th world, the old gods -Norse/Egyptian/pagan ect, Mr. Manhattan who basically evolves into a god, then deities like the Endless )....

but also only one true God - 'the Source' which it's implied is the author(s) of the comics themselves and is the actual creator of the various entities that go on to create the many 'gods'

Jesus also appears in the DC comics several times, though he is never really a character in the storylines of the heros. Swamp thing appears and even interacts with events around Jesus' crucifixion. The phantom stranger at one point reveals he was Judas and betrayed Jesus.
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Jes ... ppearances

[riskllama]

why you leave out "The Spectre", mook? you know I love it...also, apparently Jesus was just made up by the Romans to keep the empire in line. sounds a little more plausible to me than anything you'll find in the New Testament...*shrugs*

[Apatheist]

why you leave out "The Spectre", mook? you know I love it...also, apparently Jesus was just made up by the Romans to keep the empire in line. sounds a little more plausible to me than anything you'll find in the New Testament...*shrugs*

I take the view that there was a time when Christianity wasn't around, now it is, so one can call whatever brought about that change "Jesus". Whether it was one person, or a group with a common idea, it doesn't really matter - clearly someone or something resulted in the beginning of the religion.
Whether that was a person who was in any way related to a creator of the universe is really all we can debate here (spoiler: it wasn't).

[Apatheist]

Right, for all of you of the Christian faith:
Does one have to "take Jesus into one's heart" (or whatever phrase you prefer) in order to enter heaven?

[HitRed]

I claim hearts for my Father. I claim those that are mine. I call to all to set their hearts on me alone. I am the reason for life itself. I come to offer a better way for the world and all people. I am the true God sent to save men’s hearts and souls from certain death that is eternal and everlasting. I come to bring back hearts to my Father in Heaven. Come and live in me and I will live in you.

I seek the hearts of men to dwell in. To take my place in the hearts of men as their Lord and King. - God

I seek the hearts of men to dwell and be one in mind and heart. - God

I seek a dwelling in each and every heart that beats. - God

[jimboston]

Right, for all of you of the Christian faith:
Does one have to "take Jesus into one's heart" (or whatever phrase you prefer) in order to enter heaven?

Yes.

Or well K can at least give you the Roman Catholic answer.

By doctrine, Roman Catholics believe that you MUST be a Christian and BELIEVE that Jesus is the One And Only Son of God, in order to be accepted into the House of Our Lord. (i.e. Heaven.)

This is a MATTER OF DOCTRINE for Roman Catholics, Meaning if you are Roman Catholic you MUST believe this… otherwise you are not a true Roman Catholic. Many people who call themselves Roman Catholics, and even many who attend church regularly do NOT believe this. They mistakenly think that they can believe what they want here, but is a key part of what “being Catholic” is, and is not debateable according to The Church.

This idea was the first chip in my personal Catholicism. I asked a Priest if Gandhi could go to Heaven and was told “No”… and he gave me a lame excuse that Gandhi was aware/had opportunity to convert and “accept Jesus” but he didn’t, so he could go to Heaven. I then asked him if there was a native person on some remote island which had “never been visited by a Christian and so this person had never been exposed to Christianity”… and I said this person “was kind, honest, and committed no sins”… I asked “could he go to Heaven” and the Priest said “No.”

That was the “chip” in my faith which lead me to the logical conclusion that there is no “God”. At least not any “God’ that has even been described by any major organized religion.

Why would some Omnipotent God care if I “believed” in “Him” or not? Why would some Omnipotent God care if I ate meat in Fridays, or ate pork, or ate cheese while also eating beef? Why would some Omnipotent God care if I lit candles, or lit candles in the proper order, or sing the “right”songs. or said the “right” prayers?

[Apatheist]

Right, for all of you of the Christian faith:
Does one have to "take Jesus into one's heart" (or whatever phrase you prefer) in order to enter heaven?

Yes.

Or well K can at least give you the Roman Catholic answer.

By doctrine, Roman Catholics believe that you MUST be a Christian and BELIEVE that Jesus is the One And Only Son of God, in order to be accepted into the House of Our Lord. (i.e. Heaven.)

This is a MATTER OF DOCTRINE for Roman Catholics, Meaning if you are Roman Catholic you MUST believe this… otherwise you are not a true Roman Catholic. Many people who call themselves Roman Catholics, and even many who attend church regularly do NOT believe this. They mistakenly think that they can believe what they want here, but is a key part of what “being Catholic” is, and is not debateable according to The Church.

This idea was the first chip in my personal Catholicism. I asked a Priest if Gandhi could go to Heaven and was told “No”… and he gave me a lame excuse that Gandhi was aware/had opportunity to convert and “accept Jesus” but he didn’t, so he could go to Heaven. I then asked him if there was a native person on some remote island which had “never been visited by a Christian and so this person had never been exposed to Christianity”… and I said this person “was kind, honest, and committed no sins”… I asked “could he go to Heaven” and the Priest said “No.”

That was the “chip” in my faith which lead me to the logical conclusion that there is no “God”. At least not any “God’ that has even been described by any major organized religion.

PS I have a similar view on superstition - is there really a being that's going to notice that you put your socks on in a different order and as a result, will cause your team to lose? I think not.

Why would some Omnipotent God care if I “believed” in “Him” or not? Why would some Omnipotent God care if I ate meat in Fridays, or ate pork, or ate cheese while also eating beef? Why would some Omnipotent God care if I lit candles, or lit candles in the proper order, or sing the “right”songs. or said the “right” prayers?

Thanks jb.
Those were exactly the follow-up questions that I was going to ask anyone who said "yes". I'm ignoring HitRed's answer because it's of no help at all - HR, the answer is either Yes or No. I wanted your personal view, not anything that you'd read or "heard", or any other made-up quotes.
I would also add - what about Noah, David, Abraham and all the other OT guys who weren't able to believe in Jesus because they'd never heard of him? Does that mean none of them is in heaven? Yet, I seem to recall mention of someone in the OT who didn't die but was simply "taken up" to heaven - which would suggest that believing in Jesus is NOT a prerequisite.
Exclusion certainly seems a bit harsh on devout religious people of a different faith.

[HitRed]

While on earth we have plenty of time to figure out what we think. The only answer is what does God think. God is knowable. People are hiding behind gotcha questions.

[Apatheist]

While on earth we have plenty of time to figure out what we think. The only answer is what does God think. God is knowable. People are hiding behind gotcha questions.

No, you are hiding behind non-answers and avoiding the issue completely.
What do YOU think? Is heaven open to more than those who believe in Jesus?

[jimboston]

All my statements are based on Roman Catholic beliefs, I can’t speak for other denominations.

The only person who was taken to Heaven without dying was Mary, Jesus’ mother.
This is why she has been able to visit Earth several times, like at Fatima.

Jesus also ascended to Heaven in his human body, but he had died previously so there’s some ambiguity there.

I was told by my priest that pre-Jesus prophets are NOT in heaven, but are in the waiting room, Purgatory, but that they will be allowed in at the End Time. I don’t know if this statement was based on doctrine, or if the priest was tired of answering my 13yo questions and realized there was a contradiction if he said “Yes, Noah is in Heaven”… so maybe he came up with that answer on his own?

[Apatheist]

All my statements are based on Roman Catholic beliefs, I can’t speak for other denominations.

The only person who was taken to Heaven without dying was Mary, Jesus’ mother.
This is why she has been able to visit Earth several times, like at Fatima.

Jesus also ascended to Heaven in his human body, but he had died previously so there’s some ambiguity there.

I was told by my priest that pre-Jesus prophets are NOT in heaven, but are in the waiting room, Purgatory, but that they will be allowed in at the End Time. I don’t know if this statement was based on doctrine, or if the priest was tired of answering my 13yo questions and realized there was a contradiction if he said “Yes, Noah is in Heaven”… so maybe he came up with that answer on his own?

Actually:

According to the Bible, Enoch and Elijah are the two primary figures taken directly to heaven without experiencing physical death. Enoch: According to Genesis 5:24, Enoch "walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away". The New Testament book of Hebrews (11:5) confirms that he was "taken up so that he would not see death". Elijah: According to 2 Kings 2:11, the prophet Elijah did not die but was swept into heaven in a whirlwind by a chariot and horses of fire.

It wouldn't have been the first or the last time that a priest had said something to a 13 year-old boy that wasn't entirely honest...

[HitRed]

While on earth we have plenty of time to figure out what we think. The only answer is what does God think. God is knowable. People are hiding behind gotcha questions.

No, you are hiding behind non-answers and avoiding the issue completely.
What do YOU think? Is heaven open to more than those who believe in Jesus?

If you want to learn about God go to the Source.

Spoiler

[jimboston]

All my statements are based on Roman Catholic beliefs, I can’t speak for other denominations.

The only person who was taken to Heaven without dying was Mary, Jesus’ mother.
This is why she has been able to visit Earth several times, like at Fatima.

Jesus also ascended to Heaven in his human body, but he had died previously so there’s some ambiguity there.

I was told by my priest that pre-Jesus prophets are NOT in heaven, but are in the waiting room, Purgatory, but that they will be allowed in at the End Time. I don’t know if this statement was based on doctrine, or if the priest was tired of answering my 13yo questions and realized there was a contradiction if he said “Yes, Noah is in Heaven”… so maybe he came up with that answer on his own?

Actually:

According to the Bible, Enoch and Elijah are the two primary figures taken directly to heaven without experiencing physical death. Enoch: According to Genesis 5:24, Enoch "walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away". The New Testament book of Hebrews (11:5) confirms that he was "taken up so that he would not see death". Elijah: According to 2 Kings 2:11, the prophet Elijah did not die but was swept into heaven in a whirlwind by a chariot and horses of fire.

It wouldn't have been the first or the last time that a priest had said something to a 13 year-old boy that wasn't entirely honest...

I went to Catholic School for 12year and was an Altar Boy for maybe 5-6 years.

I know for a fact that I was told, more than once, that Mary was “absolutely” the only person who entered Heaven with her physical human body.

That said, Catholics have always played a little loosey-goosey with the Old Testament. My\uch easier and better to ignore conflicts and focus on the New Testament.

[Apatheist]

While on earth we have plenty of time to figure out what we think. The only answer is what does God think. God is knowable. People are hiding behind gotcha questions.

No, you are hiding behind non-answers and avoiding the issue completely.
What do YOU think? Is heaven open to more than those who believe in Jesus?

If you want to learn about God go to the Source.

Spoiler

Your adoration (for gold, apparently) is not the issue.
I want to know what YOU think.
This may be uncomfortable for you to contemplate; I just want to know whether YOUR view is that heaven is open to those who don't or haven't believed in Jesus.
Straightforward question, the answer will either be yes or no.
Equivocating is not going to convince anyone of anything.

[HitRed]

I won't accept the Bible as proof. - Apath-to-nowhere-eist

and today you’re referencing the Bible.

Actually:
According to the Bible, Enoch and Elijah are the two primary figures taken directly to heaven without experiencing physical death. Enoch: According to Genesis 5:24, Enoch "walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away". The New Testament book of Hebrews (11:5) confirms that he was "taken up so that he would not see death". Elijah: According to 2 Kings 2:11, the prophet Elijah did not die but was swept into heaven in a whirlwind by a chariot and horses of fire.

- Apath-to-nowhere-eist

[mookiemcgee]

While on earth we have plenty of time to figure out what we think. The only answer is what does God think. God is knowable. People are hiding behind gotcha questions.

No, you are hiding behind non-answers and avoiding the issue completely.
What do YOU think? Is heaven open to more than those who believe in Jesus?

If you want to learn about God go to the Source.

Spoiler

Your adoration (for gold, apparently) is not the issue.
I want to know what YOU think.
This may be uncomfortable for you to contemplate; I just want to know whether YOUR view is that heaven is open to those who don't or haven't believed in Jesus.
Straightforward question, the answer will either be yes or no.
Equivocating is not going to convince anyone of anything.

He's big on silver too!