Civilitas High - Lesson 4: Arts

[kongming3]

Apologies for messing up quotes again, my reply is that bottom paragraph.

Regarding Traf, if you want to be suspicious of me because he was absent all game I can't really stop you, but it was pretty clear that it was a personal life-related absence, rather than due to any gameplay considerations. I promise that Charle was obvious enough scum that Traf as a player would have been very happy to vote him and look town no matter his actual alignment, and the only reason I was subbed in was because for whatever reason he literally has not followed or posted or had the time/energy for mafia. I have no clue why that is, but I was only subbed in because he wouldn't even read or reply to mod prods, and very evidently a case of going AWOL rather than lurking for no gain (he would have replied to Rag eventually if he was actually still playing).

For Dev, yeah the not voting for Charle seems pretty odd. On a similar note, I would give some town credit to homer_jay for explicitly pointing out how absurd the teacher claim in an all students game was, and making sure the Charle lynch actually happened. Would be nice if Dev explains further the rationale for his voting choices, unless I missed it somewhere else.

[hjelp]

The reason I posted the assumption of nine Townies is LC saying three scums, and LC’s other related postings regarding how many wallflowers.

[hjelp]

@ Kong
No , I’m not in a hurry to get LC hammered.

[Devante]

For Dev, yeah the not voting for Charle seems pretty odd. On a similar note, I would give some town credit to homer_jay for explicitly pointing out how absurd the teacher claim in an all students game was, and making sure the Charle lynch actually happened. Would be nice if Dev explains further the rationale for his voting choices, unless I missed it somewhere else.

I have stated previously that Charle and LC were the two most suspicious to me based on their posts and claims. Charle I didn't get to vote on cause he got hammered before I could and voting LC today is following my suspicions from D1

[Loose Canon]

Herd mentality - lambs to the slaughter - wolves in sheeps clothing are the phrases that come to mind re those voting on me.

Whatever happened to critical thinking?

[DirtyDishSoap]

Hi Kong, thanks for subbing in. Sorry I've been quiet. Wanted to wait and see but I think I've seen enough to get a rough picture or at least counter argue.

Hi all, I am the new transfer student. I had to read everything from the start just now, so apologies if I missed something.

I'll start by saying that Charle's claim of being a teacher in a game where everyone is explicitly a student made no sense from the outset, and was clearly a panic fake claim. People saying they called him out for that and eventually voted for him (weeks later, and after flip-flopping) get no town credit for me, especially with how delayed the final lynch actually became. Should have been a freebie for anyone to say they wanted to lynch Charle, and the weird role powers and random additional note didn't help. Anyone who wanted to lynch day 1, but didn't lynch the gimme mafia mess-up, is suspicious in my eyes.

Making other comments in other posts, since I struggle with getting quotes right.

Okay, but this is just pure hindsight 20/20. Having that information directly now vs then just seems kind of condescending, but whatever.

What bothers me more about this hindsight post are these posts that follow...

I didn’t check history but if I recall the claim wallflower is made by - Djf, DDS, hjelp, Kingm and LC having claimed sort of info from the start.
Assume nine Townies

Spoiler

Four wallflowers plus one lynched will give three left with PR plus a possible LC non-Mafia
Two are lynched so one left with PR and a possible LC non-Mafia.

This means if LC flips town there were three PR of nine from the start and three Mafias. Seems as a difficult task for Townies having three PR?

This means if LC flips Mafia there were four PR of nine from the start and three Mafias. Seems like an easy task for Townies having four PR?

Did I get it right or wrong ??
In a ”normal” game setup having 12 players.
Is it most common having three or four PR ?
Nine Townies and three Mafias ?

You're leaving out Maxleod, the only confirmed wallflower. If we treat everyone who has publicly claimed or implied it so far as actually being a wallflower, then game start had 5 self-confirming townsfolk, minimum 2 additional town PRs (Annie and Hotbunnie confirmed so far), and then whatever else might be left in remainder for town. I'm not including LC in that as I think he's more likely to flip mafia than not.

Apologies for messing up quotes again, my reply is that bottom paragraph.

Regarding Traf, if you want to be suspicious of me because he was absent all game I can't really stop you, but it was pretty clear that it was a personal life-related absence, rather than due to any gameplay considerations. I promise that Charle was obvious enough scum that Traf as a player would have been very happy to vote him and look town no matter his actual alignment, and the only reason I was subbed in was because for whatever reason he literally has not followed or posted or had the time/energy for mafia. I have no clue why that is, but I was only subbed in because he wouldn't even read or reply to mod prods, and very evidently a case of going AWOL rather than lurking for no gain (he would have replied to Rag eventually if he was actually still playing).

For Dev, yeah the not voting for Charle seems pretty odd. On a similar note, I would give some town credit to homer_jay for explicitly pointing out how absurd the teacher claim in an all students game was, and making sure the Charle lynch actually happened. Would be nice if Dev explains further the rationale for his voting choices, unless I missed it somewhere else.

Not that you in particular shall hammer, but suggest that no hammer shall be made for the moment seems
a bit suspicious.

I mean again, there is no (town) reason we absolutely needed to rush in to hammer that very moment, and taking a breath to wait before committing and losing the rest of the day while I still have and had questions and comments, you evidently still have stuff to say, and others do as well is totally fine. Hammering in that moment cuts off town from being able to have further discussions and potentially make further progress, going straight back into scum territory (night). I promise we are still able to hammer LC before the day is over lol, the day hasn't even lasted a week so far, town loses nothing by not immediately hammering unless you're concerned scum can day kill us five times since we weren't quick enough. Can't tell what you're missing or trying to misinterpret about that.

So if I'm understanding this correctly, you thought in hindsight 20/20, Charle's claim was so damning, that we should have just straight lynched him immediately, even though Traf himself didn't vote for him (D1), made a catchup post (D2) still chose not to vote anyways. Here we are now, in a pretty similar situation with a player that says he's vanilla, but also has a power in knowing there are 3 scum, that's it. I can tell you right now, we definitely have a Wallflower townie/vanilla going on here, and a Scholarship Boy/Kid whatever is just weak claim altogether.

You yourself have said that Charle was so obvious and we should have just lynched him immediately, but here we are, full circle, drawing out the day for what I believe to be obvious scum, you clearly think he's more than likely to flip scum, but are choosing instead to draw it out. So I'm a little confused.

I'm totally fine grilling Dev, but I'm also not against someone hammering LC and getting this day over with. I think there's enough information currently to go into D4 comfortably.

[Devante]

Where is Max at? As another townie he should be coming and voting as well

[DirtyDishSoap]

Where is Max at? As another townie he should be coming and voting as well

[DirtyDishSoap]

Well if that didn't confirm my "Follows the Leader" analysis, I have no idea what else will.

[kongming3]

I mean the difference is that Charle made a claim impossible by the game mechanics, teacher in an all student game, whereas Loose has simply displayed erratic behaviour (making a few valid points, significantly more blatantly reaching points,) and had a weak, but not impossible claim. I've seen your spiel about his claim not fitting any existing roles, the same was true for Annie and for wallflowers to a lesser extent, there's still enough to lynch Loose imo but it's not a gimme in the same sense. Regardless, I think letting Charle live day 1 was a mistake, and letting Loose live today would also be a mistake.

Arguing the traf point is dumb, I don't get the point in making up narratives about a player absent literally all game, it pretty clearly is not a gameplay strategy to be gone, not post or follow or read and reply to mod prods for still being gone to the point of getting kicked out, and not vote on lynches that are overwhelmingly town looking (and scum would be even more motivated to also vote Charle once he was past the point of no return.)

I think the finding fault for not immediately hammering is still quite silly, town should be suspicious of everyone at this point and not blindly follow anyone and that's fine, but making a fuss that a townsfolk isn't immediately hammering "and drawing out the day" is pretty contrived and anti-town. If we went multiple days with no or limited posts I would agree with you, but we're actively getting discussion and information to work with as people play or overplay their hands.

Case in point - Dev's post just now where he talks about Max "as another townie," and asks why the dead player isn't participating. Does not at all strike me as a town player genuinely trying to solve this game.

I will hammer Loose by Friday at the latest, since both town and "town" seem to want that. Think Loose's posts at this stage have been pointless, and done nothing to change anything. Wouldn't mind him making a scum list before he dies, but considering the high likelihood of he himself being scum, don't feel the need to wait for that if Loose never does so.

[DirtyDishSoap]

I mean the difference is that Charle made a claim impossible by the game mechanics, teacher in an all student game, whereas Loose has simply displayed erratic behaviour (making a few valid points, significantly more blatantly reaching points,) and had a weak, but not impossible claim. I've seen your spiel about his claim not fitting any existing roles, the same was true for Annie and for wallflowers to a lesser extent, there's still enough to lynch Loose imo but it's not a gimme in the same sense. Regardless, I think letting Charle live day 1 was a mistake, and letting Loose live today would also be a mistake.

I mean, I found the mechanic of tracker but not activating until D3, or at least how I read it + the note later was incredibly more damning than the fluff of a teacher. Lynching off of purely fluff would be silly.

Whereas Scholarship is vanilla but with the power of...Knowing how many scum are in the game? If I had to compare Annie's vs Loose's claim if they both came forward D2, I'd have trusted Annie's claim waaaaay more (hindsight). Again I'm looking at mechanics and what makes sense...Loose doesn't make sense.

Arguing the traf point is dumb, I don't get the point in making up narratives about a player absent literally all game, it pretty clearly is not a gameplay strategy to be gone, not post or follow or read and reply to mod prods for still being gone to the point of getting kicked out, and not vote on lynches that are overwhelmingly town looking (and scum would be even more motivated to also vote Charle once he was past the point of no return.)

I'm just confused why you would say Traf would have voted Charle when he clearly stated in D1:

Why do people want ot get a lot of claims D1. It's just giving info to scum.
Imo it's always better from D2 onwards as there si more things to be proved there

Say what you want, but at least acknowledge that he was at least partially active D1 and pretty much didn't contribute anything positive anyways, despite the claim that Traf would 100% vote Charle. In your book, he'd also have 0 town cred. No scum cred either though simply because he just was absent for most of D2/D3.
Just found it interesting. I'm not arguing against him being absent, because I think people that were targeting him initially were just looking for an easy lynch candidate.

I think the finding fault for not immediately hammering is still quite silly, town should be suspicious of everyone at this point and not blindly follow anyone and that's fine, but making a fuss that a townsfolk isn't immediately hammering "and drawing out the day" is pretty contrived and anti-town. If we went multiple days with no or limited posts I would agree with you, but we're actively getting discussion and information to work with as people play or overplay their hands.

See, again, this is where I draw an issue. It's just saying that "Town shouldn't have made this mistake D1 by pretty damning info" but then just kind of skirt around the Loose issue. Idk, I think your argument is made in bad faith but that's just me. At least you made a deadline.

Case in point - Dev's post just now where he talks about Max "as another townie," and asks why the dead player isn't participating. Does not at all strike me as a town player genuinely trying to solve this game.

Follow the leader.

[kongming3]

Not particularly interested in arguing with you over Charle, I thought the teacher claim was a very clear slip-up of panic fake claim, but there was obviously other issues as well, so the exact thing that convinced you personally doesn't matter overly much. You don't need to convince me on Loose, I'm already going to vote for him.

Sure I can acknowledge that Traf didn't vote D1 and didn't contribute or post much of anything, and naturally also did not accumulate any sort of credibility, town or otherwise. Don't think that's controversial, I also don't think he would have lynched d1, even if I would have preferred he and all other town did lynch if I had been in the game at that time. A claim was made that he must be suspicious because of not voting D1 or D2 - I think all people actually town should have voted for and pushed harder for that D1 lynch, though obviously people will and did make different choices, and I carry some baseline level of disagreement and suspicion for all of you who made that choice. My point in response to that was that justifying Traf being suspicious because of him missing D2 voting doesn't make sense, because there's no positive gameplay reason for either of town or scum to avoid participating in what was an obvious and popular scum lynch by that point. Anyone trying to make a narrative about that is just taking a convenient excuse to focus on others - Traf obviously did need to be replaced though for the sake of the game. Don't think there's any more meaningful ground to tread on this.

There's really no inconsistency or logical fallacy on the loose issue, and I'm hopeful you're simply trying to see what reactions you can get from me or others rather than not seeing that. The mistake or objection to town gameplay on D1 would be that at the end of the day, they did not commit to and make the lynch on Charle before day closed. Repeating the same mistake would be, again, not committing to and making the lynch on Loose before day closes. I have made absolutely zero argument and I have zero desire to not lynch loose before day closes, and there is no "bad faith" representation to be made otherwise. All I did was make sure town takes advantage of the time we have during the day for further discussions (which strictly benefits town, and costs nothing), while also and still avoiding the D1 mistake of not lynching and killing Loose before the day ends. We get to talk more, town gets more reads, loose still dies, everyone wins.

Not fully sure what you meant when you replied follow the leader again regarding Devante, but the fact that we (everyone who is town) get to see posts like that and who is following along and interested in making positive progress is exactly why ending the day early for no gain would have been a mistake and anti-town.

[DirtyDishSoap]

The follow the leader thing is something I've been saying about Dev since D1. Nothing more.

[Loose Canon]

Regarding a scum list - before Friday and before EW joins game.
I'm not going to - too bitter.

Nah not really.

Big Well done to DDS either way on what he flips. - most suspect to me but least suspect to others - actively posted throughout, achieved leadsership and has kept it fun.
Well done to Hjelp too - least likely to be mafia in my book - and has actively used his cudos gained from the Charle lynch and increased engagement D3.

One question to consider though.
Mafia wouldn't necessarily have been with Charle in chat when he made the History Teacher claim D1.
They would have been with him N1 and during D2 though.

What do players think about the staffroom gossip fake reveal D2.
And what do players think it says about the type of players that would have been with him in chat prior to him making that fake reveal -
Not paying attention - like Dev maybe?
Try it - see how it flies - if they don't feel it is flying - call it out - like Hjelp maybe?

I guess you are going to duck out and say like me - you guys don't like or have discounted that Annie would not have been N1 killed had I been in N1 chat - 100% honestly swear on anything that wouldn't have happened had I been in N1 chat. So it is just a little bit personal if you really do think I had anything to do with that.
Still not bitter though.

[hjelp]

I have some other thoughts I'm going to hold on to for now (very temporarily). I'd strongly prefer if we don't lynch anyone for the moment, and I also think it would be useful for loose to confirm the current number of mafia again even if were to ultimately end up lynching him.

No I don't know that kong

@kongming3
Are there any more thoughts on your mind?

@Loose Canon
You claimed to know the number of Mafia from the start and you know that one Mafia was lynched and you can’t confirm the current number of Mafia even if were to ultimately end up lynching you ?
How come you can’t?

[hjelp]

@ Loose Canon
Or is it that you don’t know if it’s useful ? To confirm the number of Mafia …

[Ragian]

Attention students

Due to an upcoming trip around the world with his parents, KingM has sought a sabbatical and will return to the school next semester. Instead, his place at our fine school has been given to Maxleod, who will start today, but has to hand in his papers on the first two lessons before he can attend maths class.

Best regards,
Principal Ragian



Well, this is ironic, innit?

[Loose Canon]

Hjelp because my role is vanilla apart from not being like the other vanillas in that i was given number of mafia at the start and so a scholarship kid as distinct from a wallflower kid.

Whilst we are back to the wallflowers.
Can all those currently voting on me please confirm if you are actually claiming wallflower or not?

[Loose Canon]

Actually the Max recycling is curious because I sorta assumed Ragian would have set up a chat room for players detained and if so the players detained would have had discussions and might have even been let in on who was who.

Max can you please clarify on that?

If there was no such room then I'm wondering if Ragian didn't set up a designated mafia chat room either and so let them go freeflow on communication perhaps even from Day1 which would sorta weaken my assumption that Charle must have made the History teacher up by himself.

I'm also wondering what other players think of my thought that the Bunny reveal implies some sort of town investigative role.

[Ragian]

I would never bring in anyone whom I had offered the chance to talk to fellow dead players.

[Maxleod]

Obviously,

Vote Loose

[DirtyDishSoap]

The one time I can appreciate Max. Never thought I'd live to see the day.

[Loose Canon]

Well when I join Annie in Principal Ragians Office will it be

Annie Consoling Me?
or
Kiss and Make Up?

Win/Win for me

[kongming3]

Lol, there it is. Fine with it at this point though.

@hjelp, I obviously have my personal thoughts on who is guilty or looks suspicious, and the points of tension or inconsistencies I noticed, and we'll see how things develop after this night. And yeah, I thought the Loose start of game info and then at any point mafia numbers thing was pretty weird, that's why one of the first things I did after joining was seeing if I could get him to explicitly lie and change up what he originally claimed. Too much waffling and indecision from him for my taste.

Not sure how to feel about the loose romance fan fiction role-play at the end here...

[DirtyDishSoap]

Fell free to borrow my barf bag.