The unholy story of Count Giure "Grando" Stregone TOWN WINS!

[Votanic]

Sorry to say it but I have a FOS on Rag.

Seems he is lightly accusing everyone , and so playing interference on game strategizing while making himself seem busy.

He wasn't lightly accusing me.

[SoN!c]

The clues are biting your noses off ffs!

But I get it. So deadline set this sunday so we can move forward to the part where the game mechanics set-up is unveiled (after N1). Because i get the idea this flavour set up like a warm up is too complex for some or others dont like too much reading. Sorry, but its a story....

[DirtyDishSoap]

I'm just here to kill Ragoo have a wonderful game of fun and adventure!

[Extreme Ways]

Could it be that the one returning mason was turned a vampire?

[Extreme Ways]

A post which you all should consider from a game I played abuot how to balance (closed) setups. This wasn't role madness per se, but it still applies:

[QUOTE=Twice Shrunk;8348908]I'm in a generous mood today, so I'll make an actual mech case on logman and joy.

This is Part 1, which sets the foundation by going through some of my thoughts on game design theory.
----------------
Which is more inherently powerful, a town roleblocker, or a mafia roleblocker? Well, there's an easy way to test this.

Imagine the most basic setup possible, in which you are playing pure mafia. This, of course, is mountainous. Now, if you edit the setup to give town a roleblocker, does it have power?

Yes, of course it does, for it can stop the mafia night kill. Through this metric, we can say that town roleblockers are inherently powerful, because if inserted into the most basic setup, they have power.

Now, let's consider a mafia roleblocker. Quickly it is realized that mafia roleblockers are not inherently powerful. Inserting a mafia roleblocker into a mountainous setup... literally changes nothing at all. The roleblocker has nothing to target.

If we were to run this thought experiment with every single not-kp pr, it soon reveals that town prs are inherently useful in some capacity (even the weak ones do something), while mafia prs are not. (Note: I'm sure you can come up with exceptions, but for the vast majority of prs, this will be the case, and for pretty much all common ones, this is the case.) Try it yourself, with doctors, with jailkeepers, with trackers, etc.

Now, let's run this thought experiment with kill power. It should be immediately obvious that kp is inherently useful, regardless of the alignment it is assigned to. Town can use it to narrow down the PoE, and mafia can use it to kill townies advance their win condition. From this we reach the conclusion that the only inherently useful mafia power is kill power.

Now let me lay out a theorem for you. I'm sure, once again, that you can find exceptions, but for almost all of the games you will play, this will be true.

Theorem: The sum of mafia non-kp power will never be greater than the sum of all town power.

Why? Well, it has to do with inherent usefulness. Mafia non-kp power is only useful in countering town power. It can never do more than counter town power. Let's consider a mountainous game, in which we add a town tracker and a mafia roleblocker. There are scenarios in which the mafia roleblocker can totally negate the town tracker, which is by roleblocking them every single night (or just killing them). But it can never do more to advance the mafia win condition, for it is not inherently useful. And the far more likely scenario is that the town tracker gets off 1 or 2 tracks, and that the mafia roleblocker was not 100% successful in stopping the town tracker.

I think understanding the ideas I've laid out in this guide are crucial to understanding how to balance setups.

Step 1: Start with a skeleton. This can be a balanced mountainous setup (like 9-2, or, slightly more controversially, 12-3), or an imbalanced mountainous setup (like 10-3 and 13-4).

Step 2: Add your PRs. If you have a balanced mountainous setup, your game is inherently going to be townsided unless you give the mafia some sort of kp. This can be anticlaim, or just plain old kp. Once you have your roles ready, you can modify things until you feel that town power - wolf non-kp power (as in, how strong your town power is after you consider how much wolf non-kp power counters it) is about equal to the utility wolves get from their kp.

If you started with an imbalanced skeleton, you do pretty much the same thing as above, but will likely not need mafia kp because they have a numbers advantage (as compared to mountainous). The other scenario is that you started with a skeleton that actually gives town a numbers advantage, in which case you will have to dole out kp accordingly.

I could go more into the specifics of those steps, but this is more about understanding the ideas behind balancing. I would have to make a sequel guide to get into the nitty gritty of balancing.[/QUOTE]

[Extreme Ways]

ebwop

I'm in a generous mood today, so I'll make an actual mech case on logman and joy.

This is Part 1, which sets the foundation by going through some of my thoughts on game design theory.
----------------
Which is more inherently powerful, a town roleblocker, or a mafia roleblocker? Well, there's an easy way to test this.

Imagine the most basic setup possible, in which you are playing pure mafia. This, of course, is mountainous. Now, if you edit the setup to give town a roleblocker, does it have power?

Yes, of course it does, for it can stop the mafia night kill. Through this metric, we can say that town roleblockers are inherently powerful, because if inserted into the most basic setup, they have power.

Now, let's consider a mafia roleblocker. Quickly it is realized that mafia roleblockers are not inherently powerful. Inserting a mafia roleblocker into a mountainous setup... literally changes nothing at all. The roleblocker has nothing to target.

If we were to run this thought experiment with every single not-kp pr, it soon reveals that town prs are inherently useful in some capacity (even the weak ones do something), while mafia prs are not. (Note: I'm sure you can come up with exceptions, but for the vast majority of prs, this will be the case, and for pretty much all common ones, this is the case.) Try it yourself, with doctors, with jailkeepers, with trackers, etc.

Now, let's run this thought experiment with kill power. It should be immediately obvious that kp is inherently useful, regardless of the alignment it is assigned to. Town can use it to narrow down the PoE, and mafia can use it to kill townies advance their win condition. From this we reach the conclusion that the only inherently useful mafia power is kill power.

Now let me lay out a theorem for you. I'm sure, once again, that you can find exceptions, but for almost all of the games you will play, this will be true.

Theorem: The sum of mafia non-kp power will never be greater than the sum of all town power.

Why? Well, it has to do with inherent usefulness. Mafia non-kp power is only useful in countering town power. It can never do more than counter town power. Let's consider a mountainous game, in which we add a town tracker and a mafia roleblocker. There are scenarios in which the mafia roleblocker can totally negate the town tracker, which is by roleblocking them every single night (or just killing them). But it can never do more to advance the mafia win condition, for it is not inherently useful. And the far more likely scenario is that the town tracker gets off 1 or 2 tracks, and that the mafia roleblocker was not 100% successful in stopping the town tracker.

I think understanding the ideas I've laid out in this guide are crucial to understanding how to balance setups.

Step 1: Start with a skeleton. This can be a balanced mountainous setup (like 9-2, or, slightly more controversially, 12-3), or an imbalanced mountainous setup (like 10-3 and 13-4).

Step 2: Add your PRs. If you have a balanced mountainous setup, your game is inherently going to be townsided unless you give the mafia some sort of kp. This can be anticlaim, or just plain old kp. Once you have your roles ready, you can modify things until you feel that town power - wolf non-kp power (as in, how strong your town power is after you consider how much wolf non-kp power counters it) is about equal to the utility wolves get from their kp.

If you started with an imbalanced skeleton, you do pretty much the same thing as above, but will likely not need mafia kp because they have a numbers advantage (as compared to mountainous). The other scenario is that you started with a skeleton that actually gives town a numbers advantage, in which case you will have to dole out kp accordingly.

I could go more into the specifics of those steps, but this is more about understanding the ideas behind balancing. I would have to make a sequel guide to get into the nitty gritty of balancing.

[pmchugh]

Normal game: can't be bothered reading sonic will assume his volume posting is townie u til day 3.

This game: can't be bothered reading sonic the mods mad posts about roles, will wait until later in the game when it's relevant for claims etc.

FOS Loose.

[DirtyDishSoap]

Nice post EW, but let's save it post game.

[SoN!c]

Normal game: can't be bothered reading sonic will assume his volume posting is townie u til day 3.

This game: can't be bothered reading sonic the mods mad posts about roles, will wait until later in the game when it's relevant for claims etc.

FOS Loose.

Fair enough. This seems to be the general consensus here..

So let the mod guide you all a bit through the nature of hidden clues D1 and help out. After all that is what the mod needs to do when he notices a litle adjustment is in place.

And as Votanc was also keen to notice the date 13 may 1604 was way out of place... Consider a little numerology could be in place? I mean where do you find clues? In odd places? So "13 may 1604" is not only a real actual date of a Full Moon eclipse happening at midnight on a sunday to monday (moonday) night it is also the KEY NUMBER of the game mechanics that are in place..

So consider this: "13 may (with "may" = might / might be / maybe) 1604"

And for the very sharp mind the number 13 equals the exact amount of players right?...and the number 16 equals also another number that was mentioned in the story a couple of times by now, and "04" is just four right? right?

Then the Number 1604 is also a composite number. Factors of 1604 are 2 * 2 * 401. With "composite" also being a synonym for "mixed"..

Step 1: Start with a skeleton. This can be a balanced mountainous setup (like 9-2, or, slightly more controversially, 12-3), or an imbalanced mountainous setup (like 10-3 and 13-4).

Here you have your skeleton : 2 * 2 * 401 (there is even more about this skeleton number but that must remain secret for now..)

Could it be that the one returning mason was turned a vampire?

3 new arriving masons (2 +a bodyguard) is still 3, and an old mason living in the woods as a hermit is just a fourth mason right? But ofcourse that fourth Mason could be a turned vampire, or he could be just the spare Mason, or perhaps even both..

I'm just here to kill Ragoo have a wonderful game of fun and adventure!

THIS IS THE ENTIRE IDEA OF THIS EXTREME ROLE MADNESS GAME! A wonderful game of fun and adventure! Want to be stupid and not be judged for it? Here you can.

Do you wanna carry a very large sword to public places? Here's the place!

Comes with a free story (and clues)...

[Votanic]

[DirtyDishSoap]

I have to math this too?! Shoot me!

[Ragian]

Sorry to say it but I have a FOS on Rag.

Seems he is lightly accusing everyone , and so playing interference on game strategizing while making himself seem busy.

Are you fossing for seeming busy when saying that only flavour analysis can be used to appear busy? Neat. Why are you sorry?

[DirtyDishSoap]

Unvote Vote No Lynch to get it out of the way. Pretty sure my joke wasn't tallied but better safe than sorry.

[SoN!c]

Unvote Vote No Lynch to get it out of the way. Pretty sure my joke wasn't tallied but better safe than sorry.

That's correct, You have no official vote (made after official game start)

Official vote count :


Loose Canon (1) - PMC
DDS (1) - Fusi
No lynch (1) - DDS

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch

Countdown timer is set to 13 minutes over midnight Moonday 30 september EDT:

show

PS: The next REAL full moon will be on Thursday, Oct. 17 at 7:26 a.m. EDT. The moon will still appear full the night before and after its peak to the casual stargazer.
October's full moon will appear slightly larger than normal and is known as a supermoon. October's supermoon will also be the closest supermoon of the year.

[Extreme Ways]

Nice post EW, but let's save it post game.

Hmmm, not really. It gives everyone a frame of reference as to what to expect from scum prs given their own rolecard.

Once we have people claiming I will return to this of course.

vote fusi

idk if silent fusi = scum fusi still applies but I want this lad in the game regardless

[Loose Canon]

Sorry to say it but I have a FOS on Rag.

Seems he is lightly accusing everyone , and so playing interference on game strategizing while making himself seem busy.

Are you fossing for seeming busy when saying that only flavour analysis can be used to appear busy? Neat. Why are you sorry?

I'm sorry because I bear some/a lot of the responsibility for your mislynch last game.
I think you might be hiding behind making early mass accusations this game, and the more any get a head of steam, the better your cover becomes.

[Loose Canon]

Normal game: can't be bothered reading sonic will assume his volume posting is townie u til day 3.

This game: can't be bothered reading sonic the mods mad posts about roles, will wait until later in the game when it's relevant for claims etc.

FOS Loose.

Yeah I know you have an FOS on me you voted me.
You're wrong.

[Loose Canon]

Shake in another direction please PMC

[Ragian]

Sorry to say it but I have a FOS on Rag.

Seems he is lightly accusing everyone , and so playing interference on game strategizing while making himself seem busy.

Are you fossing for seeming busy when saying that only flavour analysis can be used to appear busy? Neat. Why are you sorry?

I'm sorry because I bear some/a lot of the responsibility for your mislynch last game.
I think you might be hiding behind making early mass accusations this game, and the more any get a head of steam, the better your cover becomes.

Fair enough. Just seems like a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of way. But being fossed comes with the game. No grudge.

[Charle]

Wondering if Kong is still polishing his silver ware?

[Ragian]

[*Pixar*]

I have to math this too?! Shoot me!

+1. Taking me back to elementary mafia

[SoN!c]

Official vote count :


Loose Canon (1) - PMC
DDS (1) - Fusi
Fusi (1) - EW
No lynch (1) - DDS

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch

Countdown timer D1 is set to 00.13 AM this Monday 30 september EDT:

show

And no more flavour stories from D2 onwards! (Just one important date every day)

[Ragian]

Well...deadline soon.

Usually, I'd advocate a D1 lynch for two reasons: 1) It gives town the first move and 2) it is useful in the long run when establishing patterns. In this game, however, I don't necessarily think that it's the right choice.

Are you voting to lynch, EW?

[Extreme Ways]

Well...deadline soon.

Usually, I'd advocate a D1 lynch for two reasons: 1) It gives town the first move and 2) it is useful in the long run when establishing patterns. In this game, however, I don't necessarily think that it's the right choice.

Are you voting to lynch, EW?

If I can, then yes. I agree with you that this game in particular it might be less of an advantage but im thinking towards Loose, Vot, or fusi atm.