Ukraine Won!

[saxitoxin]

The little bit in purple ... you may need to zoom in ...

Click image to enlarge.

[Lonous]

I know some of the people viewing this will respond with pure emotion, rather than facts.
Those same people are more often than not hindered by a lack of calculative skills.
Fear not slow ones, I'm here to help!

Since the Russia/Ukraine war began, the U.S. has sent about $75 billion of aid to the Ukrainians.
https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-ai ... six-charts

And now the mighty Ukrainians have liberated 47 sq kilometers of their area, from the roughly 161,000 sq kilometers that the Russians have occupied.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/uk ... 023-09-04/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian-o ... of_Ukraine

For the mathematically challenged, that comes out to $ 1,595,744,680.85 per liberated square kilometer.
Or $148.25 for every square foot.
Roughly.

The financial trajectory of this, is to liberate the rest of Ukraine we are on target to spend about 256 Trillion.
or precisely $256,839,893,480,040.75

The powers that be that will be earning interest payments on all this debt, thank you for your lack of math skills and encourage you to keep waving your Ukraine flags.

[jimboston]

I guess if that math was the sole factor in deciding US/Western involvement or support of this war then the decision would be obvious. Thankfully most people realize there are many other factors involved in geopolitics.

If you can’t figure these out and you ask nicely I may list several. I’m sure others here can do the same.

In your pretense to be “smarter than everyone here” you’ve just demonstrated that, in your ability to comprehend complex issues, you’re likely in lowest 15-20 percentile.

[Lonous]

Dear Jim
I'm a way lower percentile that what you suggest. Thanks for the benefit of the doubt on your part.
Also I am always seeking to learn from the exceptional, so I'm appreciative of your help in advance.

Things I could use your insight on
#1 Undersecretary Nuland confirming we have biolabs in Ukraine.
She pinky promises that there is nothing whatsoever harmful in said labs, but she states the administrations concern about the non dangerous things falling into Russian hands.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y39veTO7kF4

#2 Could you give me your expert analysis on this clip from 1997?
After the Warsaw pact was dissolved, and after the Soviet Union itself was dissolved, why the need to keep expanding NATO?
Indeed, why is Senator Biden so smug here about 'completely shutting the Russians out'
https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5004708/ ... -nato-1997

#3 You don't seem to care about wasting money, can you send me $1,000?
Last year the U.S. spent $475 billion on debt interest payments.
I think we could do many things for many people with that money. Why do you kiss the ass of bankers?
https://www.cbo.gov/publication/58888

#4 and lastly, if the investigations into Hunter Biden / Ukraine is such a republican witch hunt, why was the investigation signed off in 2015... by President Obama's adinistration?
https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/wp-content ... _FINAL.pdf

Thanks for your brilliance in advance!

[Pack Rat]

Dear Jim
I'm a way lower percentile that what you suggest. Thanks for the benefit of the doubt on your part.
Also I am always seeking to learn from the exceptional, so I'm appreciative of your help in advance.

Things I could use your insight on
#1 Undersecretary Nuland confirming we have biolabs in Ukraine.
She pinky promises that there is nothing whatsoever harmful in said labs, but she states the administrations concern about the non dangerous things falling into Russian hands.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y39veTO7kF4

#2 Could you give me your expert analysis on this clip from 1997?
After the Warsaw pact was dissolved, and after the Soviet Union itself was dissolved, why the need to keep expanding NATO?
Indeed, why is Senator Biden so smug here about 'completely shutting the Russians out'
https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5004708/ ... -nato-1997

#3 You don't seem to care about wasting money, can you send me $1,000?
Last year the U.S. spent $475 billion on debt interest payments.
I think we could do many things for many people with that money. Why do you kiss the ass of bankers?
https://www.cbo.gov/publication/58888

#4 and lastly, if the investigations into Hunter Biden / Ukraine is such a republican witch hunt, why was the investigation signed off in 2015... by President Obama's adinistration?
https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/wp-content ... _FINAL.pdf

Thanks for your brilliance in advance!

You make absolute MAGA sense!

We should start investigations regarding Israel use of space lasers on our forests, the Italian satellites being used on our voting machines, Hillary's pizza parlor for sexual abuse of children and drinking the blood of Christian children by democrats.

I can see that you are a true patriot, unlike those commie democrats! Keep up the good work!

[Lonous]

You make absolute MAGA sense!

They're clips of Nuland and Biden, no one expects them to make sense.
No one can blame you for a bunch of 'look over there!' nonsense. Its all you kool-aid drinkers can do when you can't refute the data.
At least you tried.

[Pack Rat]

You make absolute MAGA sense!

They're clips of Nuland and Biden, no one expects them to make sense.
No one can blame you for a bunch of 'look over there!' nonsense. Its all you kool-aid drinkers can do when you can't refute the data.
At least you tried.

We need facts, not some ridiculous data you found on some Russian troll website/podcast.

[Pack Rat]

Yes, there's bio-research labs in Ukraine and so does many countries in Europe for medical and agriculture purposes. This does not mean that they are developing biological weapons.

NATO is expanding, due to the FACTS that Russia can not help themselves into invading their neighbors. Ukraine has been invaded in 2014 and 2022. Better to support Ukraine now, instead of letting Russian aggression to continue without a large price to pay.

Glory to Ukraine!

[DirtyDishSoap]

Can we talk about why the Earth is flat please?

[jusplay4fun]

Can we talk about why the Earth is flat please?

It is amazing to me how many people, even younger people, believe that the earth is flat:

https://carsey.unh.edu/publication/conspiracy-vs-science-a-survey-of-us-public-beliefs
Survey Results

Figure 1 charts the responses to four of these questions—three false conspiracy claims (vaccination microchips, flat Earth, Moon landings faked), and one scientific fact (the Earth is very old). Agreement with the conspiracy claims is not high, ranging from 9 to 12 percent, and disagreement from 71 to 80 percent. Nine to 19 percent said they were unsure about these claims. In contrast, three-fourths of the sample agreed with scientists that Earth is billions of years old, and some of the 17 percent “unsure” might agree Earth is quite old, but be uncertain about the numbers.

Figure 2 charts the agreement percentages for nine conspiracy or scientific statements, ordered from the lowest to highest. As noted above, about 9 percent think that COVID-19 vaccinations implant microchips to track people, and 10 percent think the Earth is flat.

also:

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/do-people-really-think-earth-might-be-flat/

found that only about 82.5 percent of millennials (as YouGov called 18–24-year-olds) agreed with “I have always believed the world is round.” That’s still dismayingly low, of course, but it’s not as dismayingly low as 66 percent. And those aged 25–34 turned out to fare a tad worse, with only about 81.8 percent agreeing.

And yes, we are not on the topic of this thread, but let's see where this goes.

[jusplay4fun]

The little bit in purple ... you may need to zoom in ...

Click image to enlarge.

Is there a map showing the Russian retreat from their attempt to capture Kiev?

Try this:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60506682

[Pack Rat]

https://www-rferl-org.cdn.ampproject.or ... 81270.html

Ukraine offensive is slow, but they are moving forward.

[jimboston]

Dear Jim
I'm a way lower percentile that what you suggest. Thanks for the benefit of the doubt on your part.
Also I am always seeking to learn from the exceptional, so I'm appreciative of your help in advance.

Things I could use your insight on
#1 Undersecretary Nuland confirming we have biolabs in Ukraine.
She pinky promises that there is nothing whatsoever harmful in said labs, but she states the administrations concern about the non dangerous things falling into Russian hands.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y39veTO7kF4

#2 Could you give me your expert analysis on this clip from 1997?
After the Warsaw pact was dissolved, and after the Soviet Union itself was dissolved, why the need to keep expanding NATO?
Indeed, why is Senator Biden so smug here about 'completely shutting the Russians out'
https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5004708/ ... -nato-1997

#3 You don't seem to care about wasting money, can you send me $1,000?
Last year the U.S. spent $475 billion on debt interest payments.
I think we could do many things for many people with that money. Why do you kiss the ass of bankers?
https://www.cbo.gov/publication/58888

#4 and lastly, if the investigations into Hunter Biden / Ukraine is such a republican witch hunt, why was the investigation signed off in 2015... by President Obama's adinistration?
https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/wp-content ... _FINAL.pdf

Thanks for your brilliance in advance!

#1 - If true this is MORE reason to continue funding the Ukrainian effort, not less.
This point runs counter to your initial argument.

#2 - Isn’t the Russian Annexation of Crimea and the subsequent Russian Invasion of Ukraine proper the obvious example of why ‘The West’ still needs NATO?

Now you can argue this became a “self-fulfilling prophecy” type situation… but you didn’t make that point. I’d mostly disagree with that idea… but at least there’s an argument to be made.

#3 - I care a lot about government waste. I don’t think containing Russia is a waste of resources. In this effort we are able to help contain Russia spending only money and not blood. That seems like a good idea to me.

I’m sure there is waste in the implementation of our aid to Ukraine (as there is in all giant government expenditures). I’d be all for any efforts to minimize that waste and or implement agreements to reclaim a portion of the Aid later, calling some portion “Loans” or whatever.

#4 -Who said Hunter Biden and his dad weren’t corrupt?

You really need to come up with thoughts that aren’t parroted from Fox News.

Every day I listen to both “The Ben Shapiro Show” and “Up First from NPR”. They often cover the same story and you can hear the bias from both sides. You might benefit by listening to some different views.

[mookiemcgee]

Can we talk about why the Earth is flat please?

How crazy does one have to be to believe birds are real?

Could a real bird do this?

show

The proof is there, you just have to open your eyes to see it. We already know the gov't has the technology

[bigtoughralf]

In this effort we are able to help contain Russia spending only money and not blood.

I don't think you understand how armed conflicts work.

[Lonous]

In this effort we are able to help contain Russia spending only money and not blood.

I don't think you understand how armed conflicts work.

Apparently Slavs aren't considered human in his world view.
coincidentally there were a few other notable figures in history that shared his opinions.

[Dukasaur]

Fear not slow ones, I'm here to help!

Generally speaking, insulting people is a bad way to begin a discussion. It certainly puts one's motives in doubt.

Since the Russia/Ukraine war began, the U.S. has sent about $75 billion of aid to the Ukrainians.
https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-aid-has-us-sent-ukraine-here-are-six-charts

It sounds like a big number, but for perspective, look at the chart comparing it to some other things the U.S. spends on. $800 billion for "defense" of a country that nobody is attacking! $700 to bail out bankers that should have been hung from lamp-posts in 2008! $75 billion seem like small potatoes once you compare it to other things the USG spends money on.

And now the mighty Ukrainians

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I detect sarcasm in that statement.

Personally, I have a more positive opinion of the Ukrainians. Here's a comparison of the Russian and Ukrainian military at the start of the war: https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2022/02/24/a-graphical-comparison-of-russian-and-ukrainian-military-forces/
Some highlights:

Roughly three million Russian troops (active and reserves) versus roughly one million Ukrainian troops (active and reserves)
16 thousand armoured vehicles (all types) versus 3 thousand.
2400 air-mobile armoured vehicles versus 350.
1200 aircraft versus 120. (10 to 1!)
820 helicopters versus 45.
49 submarines versus zero.
32 major surface combat ships versus 1.
total military expenditure $46 billion versus $4.2 billion (12 to 1!)

In the face of the Russian blitzkrieg, the Ukrainians were generally expected to collapse in three weeks. They did not. In a glorious David-and-Goliath battle, they survived the initian onlaught.

In the long run, it remains a David-and-Goliath contest.

Russian GDP -- $1.48 trillion versus Ukrainian GDP $156 billion (9 to 1)
Population 142 billion to 43 billion (3.5 to 1)
.... and of course the basic strategic difference of a huge country that spans two continents and is self-sufficient in almost every resource, versus a small country with few resources that must import everything over either a blockade-able sea or an long and vulnerable series of railways.

I would think one would have more respect for the courageous men and women still holding their ground against those odds.

have liberated 47 sq kilometers of their area, from the roughly 161,000 sq kilometers that the Russians have occupied.

For the mathematically challenged, that comes out to $ 1,595,744,680.85 per liberated square kilometer.
Or $148.25 for every square foot.
Roughly.

I'm sure the mathematically challenged people of the world are very grateful for the analysis.

For comparison, compare how much a square foot of land cost during the Battle of the Somme in WW1. Or Gallipoli. Or Guadalcanal in WW2. Or, the Green Zone in Baghdad during your recent adventure there.

War isn't cheap.

The powers that be that will be earning interest payments on all this debt, thank you for your lack of math skills and encourage you to keep waving your Ukraine flags.

Back in ancient times when I was a libertarian, we used to have a saying that government will always take as much of your money as it can get away with. You can debate how to spend it, but you can't tie spending to taxes. The government will find something to spend money on, and if they spend less on x it just means they will spend more on y.

Once your government has decided to buy 1,000 TOW missiles (for instance) it matters very little (in economic terms) whether they go to Odessa to be used, or to Syracuse for weekend warriors to play soldier with, or sit in a warehouse in Kansas until some bureaucrat declares them obsolete and sends them out for scrap.

[jimboston]

In this effort we are able to help contain Russia spending only money and not blood.

I don't think you understand how armed conflicts work.

I don’t think you understand the meaning of the word “we” in this context.

Since we were discussing the US Point-Of-View, and since I am an American who cares primarily about American interests, the “we” referees to the expense to the USofA.

In this war “we”, the USA, are spending only money. The Ukrainians are spending blood. The Russians are spending both money and blood. This is a net-positive when looking at relative strength between USA and Russia.

[jimboston]

In this effort we are able to help contain Russia spending only money and not blood.

I don't think you understand how armed conflicts work.

Apparently Slavs aren't considered human in his world view.
coincidentally there were a few other notable figures in history that shared his opinions.

I didn’t say they weren’t human.

We are discussing American Expenditures.
That’s it.

If the Ukrainians don’t want to fight they don’t have to… Ukrainian suffering is real but it’s NOT the point to which I was replying. If you want to just insult me that’s fine, but you might want to make your insults more relevant.

[DirtyDishSoap]

Can we talk about why the Earth is flat please?

How crazy does one have to be to believe birds are real?

Could a real bird do this?

show

The proof is there, you just have to open your eyes to see it. We already know the gov't has the technology

You think that's crazy? I know for a fact that the Jews had faked the moon landing, and because of that one action, we ceded control of the world to them! THE END IS NIGH

[saxitoxin]

When you make one, 11-word comment, leave for two days, then come back to find 7,000 words of rebuttal spread across 16 posts ...

[jimboston]

Who was responding to your OP.

Your OP just presents a fact… there are many conclusions that can be draw from said fact. Said fact is only one data point out of a multitude of data points that are relevant to the issue at hand.

Most of the flak was directed at the idiot that posted after you.

[bigtoughralf]

In this effort we are able to help contain Russia spending only money and not blood.

I don't think you understand how armed conflicts work.

I don’t think you understand the meaning of the word “we” in this context.

Since we were discussing the US Point-Of-View, and since I am an American who cares primarily about American interests, the “we” referees to the expense to the USofA.

I mean you're completely proving my point with a response like this.

[Lonous]

Duk you usually make solid responses worth answering, this holds true here.

Generally speaking, insulting people is a bad way to begin a discussion. It certainly puts one's motives in doubt.

Lets just say that while I am still new to the forums, I have learned what to anticipate. This thread delivered big time in that expectation lol.

It sounds like a big number, but for perspective, look at the chart comparing it to some other things the U.S. spends on. $800 billion for "defense" of a country that nobody is attacking! $700 to bail out bankers that should have been hung from lamp-posts in 2008! $75 billion seem like small potatoes once you compare it to other things the USG spends money on.

Its sounds big because it is big. You're correct on scale/percentages, and I think we've allowed the crooks to get away with far too much because the public has been taught to become desensitized to it. I don't fall into that category.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I detect sarcasm in that statement. Personally, I have a more positive opinion of the Ukrainians.

I hold much respect for the courage and the strong will of slavs in general, and Ukrainians specifically. But in this scenario I think they are being duped hard and being used, as cannon fodder no doubt. And the west doesn't care one iota for how many of them are butchered. You don't need to look any further to find how true this is, than how others have replied to this thread.

Back in ancient times when I was a libertarian, we used to have a saying that government will always take as much of your money as it can get away with. You can debate how to spend it, but you can't tie spending to taxes. The government will find something to spend money on, and if they spend less on x it just means they will spend more on y.

That is fairly realistic, I am not at this point yet. I still refuse to surrender rational policy choices to irrational politicos bent on extremes and madness. Those bankers that you think should have been hung back in 2008, and I won't disagree with that one bit, are calling the shots and telling all the bribed politicos what to do. I don't see this Ukraine crisis as being different in the least.

Now on to Jimboston.
You stated you don't care how many Ukrainians die in the effort of containing the Russians.
After all its not good ole American blood of the U. S. of A., right?
and you want to label ME as the fox news viewer? lol

Back 60 years ago we had this thing called 'The Cuban Missile Crisis', maybe you've heard of it.
The Soviets parked WMD's 90 miles off our coast, and we threatened military action to remove them.
Not sure how you feel about that incident, but I think the U.S. was absolutely in the right.

Now as I already stated previously, the Warsaw Pact was dissolved. The Soviet Union was dissolved.
The West is still trying to expand NATO.
So now the U.S. builds dozens of Biolabs in Ukraine right off the Russian border?
You know, the stuff in those labs that we were afraid might fall into Russian hands. Go rewatch the video posted previously.
So Russia invades Ukraine in 2022.
Makes perfect sense to me, especially after what a single U.S. funded biolab did in Wuhan in 2020.
Russia is fighting 50 miles away from their border. We're fighting 5,000 miles away.

I don't really care what sources you get or claim to get your data from, they've turned you into a full blown amoral fascist.
Hopefully you rethink your position and stop lusting for more dead Ukrainians just so you can get your fix of armchair patriotism.