Ukraine unbroken two years into Putin's War

[Dukasaur]

Putin is like 70 years old. You're talking about a decades-long scheme leading to the conquest of Europe..

So, only another 20 or 25 years to have people murdered?

Hitler did quite a bit of damage in only 12 years.

The bulk of Napoleon's crimes against humanity took only 22.

Genghis needed only 21 to rape most of the known world.

Jim Jones killed most of his victims in a single day.

[2dimes]

The White House and US media have roughly the same level of credibility as the Kremlin and Russian media, and yet this thread is treating one as if it is infinitely more reliable and respectable than the other.

Now you're engaging in wild hyperbole.

The White House and the Kremlin may both be engaging in discreditable acts, but the White House faces meaningful dissent in Congress and allows open criticism of its policies while the Kremlin whips a servile Duma and jails, murders or exiles those who criticize it. That's a world of difference.

Similarly the bulk of American media may support the president's official line, but a large and visible minority in the media do not, and they do not face any punishment for their dissent. The major Russian media outlets are directly controlled either by the state or by businessmen in overt alliance with the state, and they parrot their president's lines without meaningful criticism. The tiny informal blogs and micromedia outlets in Russia face interference, censorship, and in many cases outright arrest and confiscation. Again, a world of difference.

But we digress. This thread is not about media servility. It is about the survival of Ukraine.

Murdering, starving, and sending dissidents into exile is kind of like buying them. Bullets are probably less expensive than bribes, think of the savings to the tax payers.

[bigtoughralf]

the White House faces meaningful dissent in Congress and allows open criticism of its policies

I'm sure it will comfort people living in the ruins of Iraq, Libya etc to know that John Stewart has mocked the military industrial complex on his Saturday night show. Finally, some justice!

But we digress. This thread is not about media servility. It is about the survival of Ukraine.

It'll survive as either an American pawn or a Russian vassal. Either way the conflict is just the usual imperial power game of thrones nonsense and the main thing that would benefit ordinary Ukrainian people is a swift end to it.

'Every great military victory is a funeral pyre.' - Laozi. The EU's bombs are no more warm and cuddly than Russia's bombs.

[jusplay4fun]

By all means though, continue to put your faith in the geopolitical strategy of a government that has caused somewhere between 500,000 and 1,000,000 civilian deaths across the Middle East through its policy of attacking governments that refuse to sell it their oil.

Quite often I seem to be reminding you that two wrongs don't make a right. Pointing out the crimes of the U.S. doesn't do anything to absolve crimes committed by Russia and China.

I was taught as far back as Grade One that "the other kids were doing it too" is not a valid defense.

I didn't say that the US Government's actions mean Putin's invasion is okay, I'm saying that the US Government's actions demonstrate its geopolitical strategy is not worthy of any respect or support.

I'm not saying it is.

The White House and US media have roughly the same level of credibility as the Kremlin and Russian media, and yet this thread is treating one as if it is infinitely more reliable and respectable than the other.

Now you're engaging in wild hyperbole.

The White House and the Kremlin may both be engaging in discreditable acts, but the White House faces meaningful dissent in Congress and allows open criticism of its policies while the Kremlin whips a servile Duma and jails, murders or exiles those who criticize it. That's a world of difference.

Similarly the bulk of American media may support the president's official line, but a large and visible minority in the media do not, and they do not face any punishment for their dissent. The major Russian media outlets are directly controlled either by the state or by businessmen in overt alliance with the state, and they parrot their president's lines without meaningful criticism. The tiny informal blogs and micromedia outlets in Russia face interference, censorship, and in many cases outright arrest and confiscation. Again, a world of difference.

But we digress. This thread is not about media servility. It is about the survival of Ukraine.

This is for Ralph:

In the US, Freedom of the press is a constitutional right guaranteed by the First Amendment (to the US Constitution) and we Americans take that and other Rights very seriously.

I would go on to say that the US was likely the FIRST nation to give such rights in the WORLD and most of the world (outside North America and Europe) does not value such.

[Maxleod]

In the US, Freedom of the press is a constitutional right guaranteed by the First Amendment (to the US Constitution) and we Americans take that and other Rights very seriously.

The Woke PC Police (another US creation) respectfully agrees to disagree.

[jonesthecurl]

Somewhere there's a tabloid headline writer, waiting patiently to be able to use the headline 'Putin put out!'

[saxitoxin]

In the US, Freedom of the press is a constitutional right guaranteed by the First Amendment (to the US Constitution) and we Americans take that and other Rights very seriously.

In the 17th release of the “Twitter Files,” journalist Matt Taibbi disclosed that the U.S. government is funding a group that has supported the censorship of dissenting viewpoints on social media, including those of U.S. citizens.

Using third-party groups gives the government added cover — to a degree. The government is not allowed to engage in censorship, but Twitter has shown that censorship-by-surrogate has its own potential risks, including the possible legal status of a company as an agent of the government. While Twitter, as a private company, is not controlled by the First Amendment, it can become an agent of the government and trigger constitutional protections.

As with intelligence operations, censorship programs are best carried out behind layers of third-party groups. We do not know the full extent of the government’s knowledge of the latest blacklisting operation to be disclosed, or any similar projects.

https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/3 ... ip-effort/

I would go on to say that the US was likely the FIRST nation to give such rights in the WORLD and most of the world (outside North America and Europe) does not value such.

Freedom of speech is a natural right that simply exists. No state can give or grant it, states can only agree not to abridge or trample on it.

In any case, Sweden was the first. In 1766 the Swedish parliament enacted the Freedom of the Press Act. The U.S. was second in 1791 with the First Amendment.

But these are words on paper. The press are propagandists for the state, and press that fail to parrot the state's talking points are tolerated when they're merely a nuisance and destroyed otherwise, especially if they challenge the war machine. Julian Assange has been in confinement for more than a decade and this is nothing new. In the run-up to the War of 1812, anti-war activists -- including "Light Horse Harry" Lee, an undisputed hero of the Revolution who once commanded 100 American dragoons to victory over an entire regiment of the enemy -- were arrested and jailed for publishing anti-war op-eds in a newspaper. Lee was beaten so badly in jail he later died of his wounds.

[jonesthecurl]

Somewhere there's a tabloid headline writer, waiting patiently to be able to use the headline 'Putin put out!'

Although it looks as if they may get to say 'Santos Sent Off' sooner.

[ConfederateSS]

In the US, Freedom of the press is a constitutional right guaranteed by the First Amendment (to the US Constitution) and we Americans take that and other Rights very seriously.

In the 17th release of the “Twitter Files,” journalist Matt Taibbi disclosed that the U.S. government is funding a group that has supported the censorship of dissenting viewpoints on social media, including those of U.S. citizens.

Using third-party groups gives the government added cover — to a degree. The government is not allowed to engage in censorship, but Twitter has shown that censorship-by-surrogate has its own potential risks, including the possible legal status of a company as an agent of the government. While Twitter, as a private company, is not controlled by the First Amendment, it can become an agent of the government and trigger constitutional protections.

As with intelligence operations, censorship programs are best carried out behind layers of third-party groups. We do not know the full extent of the government’s knowledge of the latest blacklisting operation to be disclosed, or any similar projects.

https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/3 ... ip-effort/

I would go on to say that the US was likely the FIRST nation to give such rights in the WORLD and most of the world (outside North America and Europe) does not value such.

Freedom of speech is a natural right that simply exists. No state can give or grant it, states can only agree not to abridge or trample on it.

In any case, Sweden was the first. In 1766 the Swedish parliament enacted the Freedom of the Press Act. The U.S. was second in 1791 with the First Amendment.

But these are words on paper. The press are propagandists for the state, and press that fail to parrot the state's talking points are tolerated when they're merely a nuisance and destroyed otherwise, especially if they challenge the war machine. Julian Assange has been in confinement for more than a decade and this is nothing new. In the run-up to the War of 1812, anti-war activists -- including Henry "Light Horse Harry" Lee, an undisputed hero of the Revolution who once commanded 100 American dragoons to victory over an entire regiment of the enemy --Best Friend of Washington, Father of America's Greatest Strategist ROBERT E. LEE, who married Washington's granddaughter, Only Military Commander in History, to be offered command of Both Opposing Armies in the same war-- were arrested and jailed for publishing anti-war op-eds in a newspaper. Lee was beaten so badly in jail he later died of his wounds.
-------FIXED, ...

... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

[ConfederateSS]

----------JUST IN .....ICC The Hauge....Has issued an arrest warrant...For Public Enemy #1.../ War Crimes... kidnapping children...Like the Boogeyman...for....Putin...
----------It took this long....Or because Eleven (XI)...is meeting with Putin in Moscow Monday.... Probably letting Putin know , He is getting ready to take back Taiwan...... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

[bigtoughralf]

The ICC accusing a non-Western person of being bad is a bit like FOX News calling a Democrat stupid.

[ConfederateSS]

The ICC accusing a non-Western person of being bad is a bit like FOX News calling a Democrat stupid.

---------- Actually Big Raf...Putin could be rescuing those children... America and other western countries are sick, horrible as Hell... Medically speaking....Lets look at that and more in America....
-------- America lets Corporations, Big Pharma, The Medical profession and The Educational System destroy American children...I don't know about other countries, except for the same in the medical field...
-------- Corporations Like Pepsi,Coke pour sugar down kids throats... Disney pours woke crap down kids throats,minds...
-------- Big Pharma, like Coke, spends millions to keep kids unhealthy, fat, etc...Keeps kids doped up on drugs...
-------- The Teacher's Unions and Other forms of the educational system...Not only push woke crap...They get kids well under age, like Corporations, Big Pharma...Confused, what sex they are, change who they are...
-------- The Medical profession is making money off chopping weewees off boys, breasts off girls... Pumping them with drugs , to change who they are, without their parents permission...All are guilty of all these crimes against children ...
-------- Maybe Putin should be kidnapping all the children of the West...Before they are hurt and abused by those who are supposed to be watching out for the children...
-------- Years ago, Teachers would have had the crap beaten out of them... Talking sex in any form to kids under age...
-------- Maybe the ICC should be charging America, the Western countries like America, with crimes against children...
-------- At age 18...you can be as bat shit crazy , as you want to be... That's fine... Before than...Being forced, brainwashed, by those who should be protecting, teaching, kids... Against the children's Innocence...Is just plain wrong and should not have even gotten to this point in society...... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

[saxitoxin]

Step 1: British government calls for ICC indictment of Putin.
Step 2: British government releases brother of ICC prosecutor from prison where he's being held as a convicted pedophile.
Step 3: ICC prosecutor indicts Putin.

[saxitoxin]

President Putin drove his car to Mariupol today to check things out.

[ConfederateSS]

President Putin drove his car to Mariupol today to check things out.

--------I bet it's gasoline powered, I don't see Putin going Green...Sorry Gretty... ...... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

[bigtoughralf]

Chinese President Xi Jinping is today in Moscow, where Putin has received him to discuss plans for peace in Ukraine. Ukrainian officials have also talked up this plan, publicly emphasising the amount of common ground they have with China.

The US and EU's peace plan continues to revolve around pouring lethal weapons into an active conflict zone, a strategy which has so far totally failed to deliver peace in any of the countries where it has been tried (Ukraine, Syria, Afghanistan etc). Xi's strategy of diplomacy, however, has proven effective in the Middle East where he has recently persuaded Iran and Saudi Arabia to resume diplomatic ties. Could his approach be the one that finally bears fruit in Ukraine too?

The answer is yes.

[Dukasaur]

Chinese President Xi Jinping is today in Moscow, where Putin has received him to discuss plans for peace in Ukraine. Ukrainian officials have also talked up this plan, publicly emphasising the amount of common ground they have with China.

The US and EU's peace plan continues to revolve around pouring lethal weapons into an active conflict zone, a strategy which has so far totally failed to deliver peace in any of the countries where it has been tried (Ukraine, Syria, Afghanistan etc). Xi's strategy of diplomacy, however, has proven effective in the Middle East where he has recently persuaded Iran and Saudi Arabia to resume diplomatic ties. Could his approach be the one that finally bears fruit in Ukraine too?

The answer is yes.

If selling 44 million people into slavery is your idea of a delicious fruit, then yes.

[jimboston]

It'll survive as either an American pawn or a Russian vassal. Either way the conflict is just the usual imperial power game of thrones nonsense and the main thing that would benefit ordinary Ukrainian people is a swift end to it.

Pretty sure most would prefer to “survive” (I’d say Thrive) and an American Pawn.

As a citizen of an American pawn (i.e. the UK) given those options which would be your preference?

[bigtoughralf]

As a citizen of an American pawn (i.e. the UK) given those options which would be your preference?

I remember a friend who works in government in Liberia complaining about how the Chinese Government was offering to build 4G infrastructure in Liberia, and the US Government's response was threatening to withdraw all their naval support in Liberia's waters and leave its coast vulnerable to pirates. Ultimately the Liberian government at the time gave in and turned down the offer of Chinese support. Also, this. Don't kid yourself that the idea of being an American pawn holds any appeal.

Quite honestly my order of preference would be China > US > Russia. I doubt any of them would be much different to each other, but going from left to right you get governments with increasingly little resources to spend on charming friends and increasingly more internal shitshows distracting them from being friendly.

[bigtoughralf]

Chinese President Xi Jinping is today in Moscow, where Putin has received him to discuss plans for peace in Ukraine. Ukrainian officials have also talked up this plan, publicly emphasising the amount of common ground they have with China.

The US and EU's peace plan continues to revolve around pouring lethal weapons into an active conflict zone, a strategy which has so far totally failed to deliver peace in any of the countries where it has been tried (Ukraine, Syria, Afghanistan etc). Xi's strategy of diplomacy, however, has proven effective in the Middle East where he has recently persuaded Iran and Saudi Arabia to resume diplomatic ties. Could his approach be the one that finally bears fruit in Ukraine too?

The answer is yes.

If selling 44 million people into slavery is your idea of a delicious fruit, then yes.

Better than 44 million corpses.

Not that slavery is an option China is proposing anyway.

[Dukasaur]

Chinese President Xi Jinping is today in Moscow, where Putin has received him to discuss plans for peace in Ukraine. Ukrainian officials have also talked up this plan, publicly emphasising the amount of common ground they have with China.

The US and EU's peace plan continues to revolve around pouring lethal weapons into an active conflict zone, a strategy which has so far totally failed to deliver peace in any of the countries where it has been tried (Ukraine, Syria, Afghanistan etc). Xi's strategy of diplomacy, however, has proven effective in the Middle East where he has recently persuaded Iran and Saudi Arabia to resume diplomatic ties. Could his approach be the one that finally bears fruit in Ukraine too?

The answer is yes.

If selling 44 million people into slavery is your idea of a delicious fruit, then yes.

Better than 44 million corpses.

Not that slavery is an option China is proposing anyway.

I don't suppose China is proposing it. But China would be content to look the other way while Putin finishes what Stalin started.