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Ukraine unbroken two years into Putin's War

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Ukraine unbroken two years into Putin's War

Postby Dukasaur on Sat Apr 02, 2022 6:05 pm

Russia continues its pattern of terror bombing over Ukrainian cities. It focuses on soft civilian targets. Since the London blitz, it has been obvious that terrorist bombings along cannot bring down a nation.

Meanwhile, Putin's armies, composed mostly of unwilling conscripts and released prisoners, make futile attempts to gain ground on land.

War fatigue has to some degree taken hold in Ukraine, but the majority are still confident in eventual victory.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Ukraine has now made history and survived a blitzkrieg-style offensive longer than anyone else since the term was invented.

Over a year now since Putin's assault began, although the blitzkrieg phase ended long ago and it has transformed into a war of attrition.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
(OP)

Ukraine vs Russia, February 24 to April 2, 2022 (so far) (47 days and counting)
France and Allies vs Nazi Germany, May 10 to June 22, 1940 (44 days)
Iraq vs U.S. and allies, March 20 to May 1st, 2003 (43 days)
Poland vs Germany and Russia, Sept 1 to Oct 6, 1939 (36 days)
India vs Pakistan, Sept 1 to Sept 22, 1965 (22 days)
Yugoslavia vs Nazi Germany, April 6 to April 17, 1941 (12 days)
Iraq vs U.S. and allied Coalition, Feb 17 to 28, 1991 (12 days)
Egypt vs IDF, June 5 to June 10, 1967 6 days
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Re: Will Ukraine set a new record for surviving blitzkrieg?

Postby HitRed on Sat Apr 02, 2022 7:35 pm


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Re: Will Ukraine set a new record for surviving blitzkrieg?

Postby ConfederateSS on Sat Apr 02, 2022 10:06 pm

Dukasaur wrote:Ukraine is on the verge of making history. In the history of nations surviving a blitzkrieg-style combined-arms onslaught by a larger power, few have survived a month. The record so far is the 44 days that France survived after the German invasion of 1940. In six more days Ukraine will pass that record.

France and Allies vs Nazi Germany, May 10 to June 22, 1940 (44 days)
Iraq vs U.S. and allies, March 20 to May 1st, 2003 (43 days)
Ukraine vs Russia, February 24 to April 2, 2022 (so far) (39 days and counting)
Poland vs Germany and Russia, Sept 1 to Oct 6, 1939 (36 days)
India vs Pakistan, Sept 1 to Sept 22, 1965 (22 days)
Yugoslavia vs Nazi Germany, April 6 to April 17, 1941 (12 days)
Iraq vs U.S. and allied Coalition, Feb 17 to 28, 1991 (12 days)
Egypt vs IDF, June 5 to June 10, 1967 6 days


------------- Someday History would get Poland 1939 A.D. Right.....

-------------- To be fair to Poland DUK....36 days is wrong for German Blitzkrieg....Have you forgotten ...16 days later ...The Soviet Union invaded Poland from the East....Now Poland was fighting 2 super powers ...Held out for 6 weeks...That is Awesome...
-------------- If it would of rained...Poland would have held out longer...The German /Russian Air forces grounded, tanks stuck in the mud....

-----------------You left out The initial German Blitzkrieg into The Soviet Union....June 22nd, 1941 A.D...to December 5th , 1941 A.D...Winter and Russians stopped Germany...As German troops could see the Kremlin, Moscow from a distance....Halting Germany's 1st drive into Russia....So lets count the days....
---- 8 more in June, 5 in December, 31 in July, 31 in August, 30 September, 31 in October, and 30 in November.
-------------That's....166 days ...To Bad France 44 days in 1940 A.D. Record....Looks like The Ukraine has 128 days left to break the Record...
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Re: Will Ukraine set a new record for surviving blitzkrieg?

Postby bigtoughralf on Sun Apr 03, 2022 4:36 am

I was actually wondering how this compares to Iraq the other day. Everyone going on about 'lol Putin is suck a cuck for not wiping Ukraine out yet', yet your figures show that after this much time invading Iraq the US hadn't wiped out Iraq either.

Iraq was fighting the US alone whereas Ukraine is fighting with a river of Western weapons flowing into it, so it looks like Russia's invasion is roughly on track for what we might have expected.
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Re: Will Ukraine set a new record for surviving blitzkrieg?

Postby Dukasaur on Sun Apr 03, 2022 5:35 am

ConfederateSS wrote:To be fair to Poland DUK....36 days is wrong for German Blitzkrieg....Have you forgotten ...16 days later ...The Soviet Union invaded Poland from the East....Now Poland was fighting 2 super powers ...Held out for 6 weeks...That is Awesome...

I haven't forgotten. I listed "Germany and Russia" as the antagonists. Nor is 36 days wrong -- first attack was Sept 1st, last major element of the Polish army stood down on Oct 6th.
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Re: Will Ukraine set a new record for surviving blitzkrieg?

Postby ConfederateSS on Sun Apr 03, 2022 7:47 am

Dukasaur wrote:
ConfederateSS wrote:To be fair to Poland DUK....36 days is wrong for German Blitzkrieg....Have you forgotten ...16 days later ...The Soviet Union invaded Poland from the East....Now Poland was fighting 2 super powers ...Held out for 6 weeks...That is Awesome...

I haven't forgotten. I listed "Germany and Russia" as the antagonists. Nor is 36 days wrong -- first attack was Sept 1st, last major element of the Polish army stood down on Oct 6th.


--------I see...Two Russias...One on top of each other...ouch...oops...

-------------But Russia still holds the record 166 days....

-----------For Germany was a Smaller Country attacking a Larger Country ....
-------------When France invaded Russia in 1812 A.D....The French went Straight for Moscow.....
-------------When Germany invaded Russia/Soviet Union in 1941 A.D.....Germany started a rolling Blitzkrieg that ended 1800 miles long...From The Gulf of Finland to The Top of The Sea of Azov down to The Crimea ,The Black Sea...
-----------I know Larger ,smaller,...But reversed....In this context...Russia is involved again... Ironically.... Ukraine is doing to Russia....What Russia did to Germany in 1941 A.D....Denied The Capital...Of the invaded country... Bleeding the invading countries troops dry...

----------- Overall...Not days.....But Spirit and Guts....I would give the Hold out Award to Poland in 1939 A.D. and it's people....No air force(smashed early)...No navy, little ,if no tanks... Smashed between 2 massive invading armies...The Polish were Riding Bicycles with Machine guns on them...Lots of cavalry , which would of helped ,if it would of rained....They were holding on to dynamite or other explosives...Jumping in front of tanks...Letting the enemy tanks roll over them to blow the tanks up...Now that is doing everything possible... Outnumbered ,out gunned...Love for your country you can get...Yes you have to Love the job The Ukrainians are doing...But doing it with modern technology...The Polish were basically throwing sticks, rocks, the kitchen sink at the invaders...
O:) ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)... O:)
-----------I know bicycles....You may think that's iffy....But when the Japanese took Hong Kong from the British in World War 2....They had to get infantry to a spot fast to capture it...It was Key for both armies...The Japanese prepared for it....The had their infantry carry bicycles on their backs when they invaded Hong Kong...They beat the British who were on foot...To a key point...To hold onto...Until heavier forces could get there...Yes, Bicycles...who knew?...other than the Polish and Japanese...
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Re: Will Ukraine set a new record for surviving blitzkrieg?

Postby bigtoughralf on Sun Apr 03, 2022 9:38 am

The list is missing a few anyway:

  • US invasion of Grenada, 1983 (4 days)
  • US attack on the Viet Cong in Cambodia, 1970 (61 days, no victory to the attacker)
  • USSR invasion of Czechoslovakia, 1968 (2 days)
  • US attack on North Korea*, 1950 (421 days, no victory to the attacker)

So the record holders are actually the Koreans, or if you're only counting powers that resisted the blitzkreig unaided then it's the Vietnamese (although if we're only counting unaided resistances then you would have to erase several entries from the original list as France, Ukraine and Egypt all received significant support from third parties).

*China supplied troops to the North Korean side but the US offensive still outnumbered the North Koreans/Chinese and was using air support and armour against a foe made up predominately of infantry
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Re: Will Ukraine set a new record for surviving blitzkrieg?

Postby Dukasaur on Sun Apr 03, 2022 10:47 am

bigtoughralf wrote:The list is missing a few anyway:

  • US invasion of Grenada, 1983 (4 days)
  • US attack on the Viet Cong in Cambodia, 1970 (61 days, no victory to the attacker)
  • USSR invasion of Czechoslovakia, 1968 (2 days)
  • US attack on North Korea*, 1950 (421 days, no victory to the attacker)

So the record holders are actually the Koreans, or if you're only counting powers that resisted the blitzkreig unaided then it's the Vietnamese (although if we're only counting unaided resistances then you would have to erase several entries from the original list as France, Ukraine and Egypt all received significant support from third parties).

*China supplied troops to the North Korean side but the US offensive still outnumbered the North Koreans/Chinese and was using air support and armour against a foe made up predominately of infantry


I used fairly strict criteria in selecting the list. None of the ones you've mentioned would qualify. For starters, none were invasions in the classic sense.

  • Granada was essentially a military-assisted political coup to overthrow the local government. It was not intended to conquer or hold the country.
  • The attack on the Viet Cong in Cambodia was pretty much the exact opposite, an attempt to intervene to protect the local government against an ongoing coup.
  • The invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968 was, despite the name, another political coup. Although large numbers of Russian troops and their allies entered the nation, there almost no actual combat. The troops were there to facilitate the violent overthrow of the government if its political overthrow had failed, but it did not.
  • Mischaracterizing the Korean War as a "US attack" reveals your political biases. I'm not going to get into it with you; anybody who cares can read the history and see that the U.S. forces were there within an internationally-recognized action in response to a Communist invasion of South Korea. Either way it doesn't matter, it was not an invasion in the classical sense.
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Re: Will Ukraine set a new record for surviving blitzkrieg?

Postby bigtoughralf on Sun Apr 03, 2022 10:48 am

Your only stated criterion was 'a blitzkrieg-style combined-arms onslaught by a larger power'.

The only one of my four you could probably remove is the USSR one, as very little actual fighting ended up taking place.
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Re: Will Ukraine set a new record for surviving blitzkrieg?

Postby Dukasaur on Sun Apr 03, 2022 11:07 am

bigtoughralf wrote:Your only stated criterion was 'a blitzkrieg-style combined-arms onslaught by a larger power'.

The only one of my four you could probably remove is the USSR one, as very little actual fighting ended up taking place.


I think clearly reading between the lines it implies a conquest, even if I didn't use that term. It definitely does not include mere tinkering with other countries' internal politics, which all four of your examples were.
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Re: Will Ukraine set a new record for surviving blitzkrieg?

Postby bigtoughralf on Sun Apr 03, 2022 12:22 pm

By that logic your list shouldn't include Iraq, Iraq or India because those weren't attempted conquests either. And actually neither is Ukraine, given Russia's stated aims for the Donbass are for it to become independent (not for it to become part of Russia).
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Re: Will Ukraine set a new record for surviving blitzkrieg?

Postby Dukasaur on Mon Apr 04, 2022 1:42 pm

After almost six weeks of everyone thinking that Putin was deliberately pulling his punches, almost everyone is starting to realize, no, the Russians really are as incompetent as they seem.

Of course, some people said this from the start, but most of us just couldn't believe it.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/02/no-youre-not-imagining-it-russias-army-is-inept.html
After four days of fighting, the Russian military is bogged down in Ukraine. In part this is due to the valiant resistance of Ukraine’s army and civilian defense forces. But it’s also due to the fact that the Russian army just isn’t very good.

News reports, tweets, videos, and emails from the battlefields show Russia’s armored vehicles abandoned for lack of fuel, its soldiers foraging for food, its transport planes shot out of the sky, its various military elements—tanks, infantry, aircraft—unable to coordinate their aims.

Michael Kofman, a military analyst at CNA, an Arlington, Virginia–based think tank, who has been following the battle closely, tweeted late Sunday afternoon, “It’s taken me a while to figure out what [the Russian military is] trying to do, because it looks so ridiculous and incompetent.” B.A. Friedman, a military historian and tactician, went further: “This isn’t a good army executing a bad plan. It isn’t a good army executing outdated or out-of-context tactics. It’s a bad army!”

None of this should be overstated. Four days of fighting might seem an eternity when viewed through the prism of round-the-clock cable news, but, in retrospect, a month from now, it will seem like the blink of an eye. Even the best armies take a while to get going. That said, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has been particularly sluggish and flawed.

In one sense, this was predictable. Over the past decade, the Russian armed forces have greatly improved, especially in the numbers of troops and quality of weapons. However, some of their age-old weaknesses haven’t been fixed at all.

The Russian army has always been bad at setting up and sustaining supply lines. Gen. Omar Bradley once said about different types of military officers, “Amateurs talk strategy, professionals talk logistics.”* In that sense, Russians are amateurs. This is well known. It is why Ukrainian soldiers explicitly attacked the Russian supply lines. It’s why so many tanks and other vehicles have been spotted stuck on the side of a road.

This weakness might not matter so much if an army makes rapid progress at the start of its offensive. Its troops could plunder the places they conquer for fuel, food, and other supplies. But the Russian army isn’t cut out for lightning strikes. Troops are trained in rote set pieces, with no time devoted to improvising if things don’t go as planned. One reason for this is that junior officers are not allowed to take initiative. This is deliberate; it’s part of the top-down command system dating back to Soviet times, if not earlier. In politics and in warfare, the small elite on top doesn’t want subordinates to get too creative—if they did, they might take over.

And so, as the Russian invaders met resistance, they didn’t quite know what to do. Military operations designed to take place sequentially—Step 1, then 2, then 3, etc.—fell apart, catastrophically. If Step 2 hit a big obstacle, the by-the-book soldiers moved on to Step 3 anyway. Therefore, large troop-transport planes tried to land, even though the airport hadn’t been completely secured and Ukrainian air defense systems hadn’t been destroyed. As a result, two Il-76 transport planes, each carrying 100 airborne troops, were shot down.
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Re: Will Ukraine set a new record for surviving blitzkrieg?

Postby Qwert on Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:17 am

Surviving blitzkrieg?Surviving blitzkrieg? First of all what are blitzkrieg, its these military attack who are surprised for defending side??? Second _ how the hell you survive blitzkrieg if outcome are unconditional surrender??? All what you listed are failed survive of blitzkrieg and only what are surviving blitzkrieg you dont want to put its Nazi Germany attack on USSR in 1941.
Nazi Germany Blitzkrieg on 1941 on USSR have goal to very fast take MOscow and USSR manage to beat these blitzkrieg and survive, put that on list if you dare.

And by the way you put France and Allies like some minor country and German superior forces, and actually they are equal in force. You definition dont make any sense
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Re: Will Ukraine set a new record for surviving blitzkrieg?

Postby bigtoughralf on Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:25 am

Maybe he's counting the French Empire as a minor country on account of France's inferior tactics and morale. Germany vs France was kind of like Tyson Fury vs a mentally handicapped Tyson Fury: on paper the stats make it look like an even fight, but in practice it's actually kinda cruel.
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Re: Will Ukraine set a new record for surviving blitzkrieg?

Postby saxitoxin on Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:13 pm

1. The U.S. refuses to recognize the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court because it says it's a politically biased, kangaroo court.

2. Biden calls for Putin to be tried for war crimes.

3. The court that tries war crimes is the International Criminal Court.

These people aren't even trying anymore. They know westerners will just lap up whatever nonsense they spout.
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Re: Will Ukraine set a new record for surviving blitzkrieg?

Postby bigtoughralf on Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:40 pm

Kinda like the US criticizing China for violating the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, even though the US has continually refused to sign up to it.
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Re: Will Ukraine set a new record for surviving blitzkrieg?

Postby mookiemcgee on Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:59 pm

bigtoughralf wrote:Kinda like the US criticizing China for violating the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, even though the US has continually refused to sign up to it.


160+ countries have signed/ratified it and plenty of them also openly criticize China for violating the agreement that they did voluntarily sign on to... I guess China's word is not bond, and is no better than America.
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Re: Will Ukraine set a new record for surviving blitzkrieg?

Postby ConfederateSS on Wed Apr 06, 2022 11:23 am

Qwert wrote:Surviving blitzkrieg?Surviving blitzkrieg? First of all what are blitzkrieg, its these military attack who are surprised for defending side??? Second _ how the hell you survive blitzkrieg if outcome are unconditional surrender??? All what you listed are failed survive of blitzkrieg and only what are surviving blitzkrieg you dont want to put its Nazi Germany attack on USSR in 1941.
Nazi Germany Blitzkrieg on 1941 on USSR have goal to very fast take MOscow and USSR manage to beat these blitzkrieg and survive, put that on list if you dare.

And by the way you put France and Allies like some minor country and German superior forces, and actually they are equal in force. You definition dont make any sense


-------------I already said that.... Germany was a smaller force attacking a Larger force...The Soviet Union in 1941 A.D....Duk's thread is a Smaller Force holding on against a larger force...
------------As far as Germany against Poland in 1939 A.D....It is unfair to say only 36 days...There should be an exception...there...Russia / Soviet Union attacked Poland from the other side 16 days later...Who knows how long the Polish could have lasted...36 days should be x(times)...100,1000,1,000,000...The only one on the list that had to fight 2 super powers from both sides...Where they just had to march right in...
---------------The best on the list Was Egypt vs Israel in the 6 day War....The Israeli General only had one eye...The old saying is, "If he had 2 eyes, the war would have been won in 3 days...

----------------- Blitzkrieg you ask...It is where, 1st comes the Air Bombardment, 2nd comes the tanks rolling in, 3rd comes the Infantry and other ground forces... To cripple the enemy quick, to smash their moral from resisting the invaders...
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Re: Will Ukraine set a new record for surviving blitzkrieg?

Postby ConfederateSS on Wed Apr 06, 2022 11:58 am

----------In the true Blitzkrieg Record...By a Smaller Country outlasting / holding off a Larger single invader....Is not France vs Germany 1940 A.D. ...44 days...
----------In True Blitzkrieg standards...The Larger Soviet Union/ Russia invaded Finland in 1939 - 1940 A.D. well smaller than France, or Ukraine... infact Ukrainians were Russian at the time....
-------------- Finland held The Soviet Union/Russia off from Conquering Finland, from November 30th, 1939 A.D. to when a Peace Treaty was signed in Moscow on March 13th, 1940 A.D.,ending the Winter War...
---------- For 3 months, 1 week, 6 days...or 105 days...61 days more than France's 44 .... Ukraine will pass Finland's record on June 8th, 2022 A.D....With 106 days, if the war lasts that long...I am sure, Ukraine wants it over, Yesterday...
O:) ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)... O:) ...The Finns would hit the 1st and last tank...Swoop down on skies...Take out the rest of the Russian tanks, forces...Over and over until war's end...The Russians are falling for it again in Ukraine...
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Re: Will Ukraine set a new record for surviving blitzkrieg?

Postby bigtoughralf on Wed Apr 06, 2022 2:04 pm

mookiemcgee wrote:
bigtoughralf wrote:Kinda like the US criticizing China for violating the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, even though the US has continually refused to sign up to it.


160+ countries have signed/ratified it and plenty of them also openly criticize China for violating the agreement that they did voluntarily sign on to... I guess China's word is not bond, and is no better than America.


The difference being China recognizes the law, claims to adhere to it and demands that others do too, whereas the US refuses to recognise the ICJ, refuses to adhere to its rules and yet still demands others adhere to it.
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Re: Will Ukraine set a new record for surviving blitzkrieg?

Postby saxitoxin on Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:11 pm

bigtoughralf wrote:
mookiemcgee wrote:
bigtoughralf wrote:Kinda like the US criticizing China for violating the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, even though the US has continually refused to sign up to it.


160+ countries have signed/ratified it and plenty of them also openly criticize China for violating the agreement that they did voluntarily sign on to... I guess China's word is not bond, and is no better than America.


The difference being China recognizes the law, claims to adhere to it and demands that others do too, whereas the US refuses to recognise the ICJ, refuses to adhere to its rules and yet still demands others adhere to it.


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Re: Will Ukraine set a new record for surviving blitzkrieg?

Postby bigtoughralf on Sat Apr 09, 2022 12:58 pm

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Re: Will Ukraine set a new record for surviving blitzkrieg?

Postby jusplay4fun on Sun Apr 10, 2022 5:43 am

So here we are, as of today:

Ukraine vs Russia, February 24 to April 10, 2022 (so far) (47 days and counting).

Did I update this correctly, Duk. I do not want to re-hash what I posted in the other Forum Thread on the Blitzkrieg attack by Russian vs. Ukraine. To offer a brief summary, the Russian attack on Kyiv has apparently failed to date.

blitz·krieg
/ˈblitsˌkrēɡ/

noun
an intense military campaign intended to bring about a swift victory.
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Re: Will Ukraine set a new record for surviving blitzkrieg?

Postby Dukasaur on Sun Apr 10, 2022 5:10 pm

Qwert wrote:First of all what are blitzkrieg, its these military attack who are surprised for defending side??? Second _ how the hell you survive blitzkrieg if outcome are unconditional surrender??? All what you listed are failed survive of blitzkrieg and only what are surviving blitzkrieg you dont want to put its Nazi Germany attack on USSR in 1941.
Nazi Germany Blitzkrieg on 1941 on USSR have goal to very fast take MOscow and USSR manage to beat these blitzkrieg and survive, put that on list if you dare.

There's a strict character limit for the length of titles in this forum and so a complete description could not be included, but one of the unstated assumptions in blitzkrieg is that the war should not be economically costly. The idea is that a power with a technological and tactical advantage should fire a lightning strike which will incapacitate the enemy with its opening blow and avoid a long, expensive war. Basically, this was what Bismarck and Moltke did to Austria during the Seven Weeks War, and every German offensive since 1866 was designed with the goal of repeating 1866.

Ironically enough, the Great War of 1914-1918 turned into one of the worst wars of attrition of all time, but in fact the German plan going into it was the Schlieffen Plan which was attempting to strike an 1866-style knockout blow to the French and avoid letting the war go into the winter. They really failed in 1914, but their second attempt at running the same play in 1940 was much more successful.

In 1941 the goal was to do much the same thing, but the plan was build on totally nonsensical assumptions. Despite massive losses in the opening months of the war, Russia had such numerical superiority to the Germans that it could absorb those losses and keep on going. Nor was Russia as technologically inferior to the Germans as the mythology has made it. The Russians had tanks and artillery equal to the German army, and while one-on-one most German planes were better than their Russian counterparts, but their short range negated their advantage. So Hitler may have fantasized about doing a blitzkrieg-style knockout, but it never had any realistic chance of being one. For that reason it doesn't make the list.

The list is comprised not of all offensives that were conceived as blitzkrieg-style attacks, but those that actually displayed the hallmarks.
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