So are clans dead?

[IcePack]

That being said, I also have no idea what’s being planned (or not being planned) as the teams been pretty quiet. Nothings been said / announced by Dave since shoop joined the team a year and a half ago? And the team itself has been pretty quiet, I just noticed Lindax isn’t even on the team anymore? Not sure when that happened or if it’s temporary.

Definitely could be more outreach to the Community, besides Jd posting every once in awhile I don’t really see the team posting much

[Jdsizzleslice]

Some of the highlights from the past few posts:

My post was not intended as criticism of the Clan department so please do not get all defensive.

You literally criticized the entire CD Team, and then called two specific people out in a later post. Do you even realize that you are a walking contradiction?

Part of that is something Keefie touches on, stagnation. Pointing to one attempted event and a recent poll that says they dont want another of that event doesn't mean that clans wouldn't welcome or aren't interested in new events. It might just not be THAT event that they're not interested in. Again, I would agree with the statement that CD's are there to help facilitate and not completely organize every event. But this is also where the answer can't be that they're doing nothing either. Its hard to grow anything if its rinse, recycle, repeat and thats it.

The shift from Community Driven Events and Team Driven Events that Keefie is referencing occurred because there was less interest from the Community (as JD points out) so less things were happening. As thats a major issue to keep clans interested, growing, engaged and entertained the Team / Site at the time started developing their own to keep things going. (sort of a, if you build it they will come mentality, which generally worked w/ a few exceptions) It appears there is still little interest / ability from the Community to take on this task, and since the CD team has reverted to not doing very many of their own events expecting the Community to step up, stagnation will / has(?) occurred.

I disagree with the notion that the CD Team has done nothing. CC and CL are two huge events that the CD Team puts on, and we wanted to try and see how CWC would be taken. I will admit that we initially did not communicate the intent of the tournament very well to the Clan World. And we have, and will, own that mistake. CWC is now understood as a supplemental tournament to CC and CL, one that took a very long time to work the details out on. And I agree, just because the Clan World doesn't like CWC doesn't necessarily mean that it will not be receptive of new tournaments. However, for the longest time, the Clan World hasn't been receptive to another major tournament outside of CL, CC, and RL. I agree that CWC could have been communicated better, but even if CWC would have been ran perfectly, would the Clan World still have accepted it? In your honest opinion, do you think the Clan World would accept any new tournament?

I think there is room for improvement in every department on this site, certainly the CD Team. But haven't done "nothing."

Not to nitpick, but the CAT Forum wasn't "created" by the current team. It existed as a private space already that was a continuation from long ago (CLA, CD & Friends, CAT) that as Keefie had pointed out, was already discussed and planned to be moved to the public forum and had undergone testing with me & KA to prove the concept worked.

I'll grant you that. CD&F did exist before I was brought on, and I am not aware of any conversations you had with the admins. However, you and I both understand the difference between prototype and production (referring to an industry standard). A lot of careful transitioning is needed to take an idea and create an actual avenue for that idea to flourish.

So on this front, what is being done by the team to facilitate this discussion if its something that'll reap a ton of benefits - why isn't it happening? At the very least, I would think to help the Community the team would lead these sort of "beneficial discussions" and try to get the Community moving in the right direction even if they aren't solely responsible for running the resulting events.

Right, the discussion would be beneficial to understand why individuals may or may not want to lead clans and create/run tournaments. And you are right, we should be discussing that. So let me start this conversation in here, and we can move to another post if we deem it necessary. My observation on why individuals do not have an interest in running clans or running events is that is extremely time consuming, and people over time lose interest. No amount of tournaments hosted by the CDs will change that.

I have personally experienced this, because I have contacted many people in the Clan World about helping me run a few minor Clan Tournaments or Clan Events. The answer I would always receive is that no one either had the time (due to other commitments in their clan or personal) to help me run the event or they did not have interest in running the event.

I have experienced this second-had as a CD, because I have been contacted by several individuals if they could run a Clan Events. In some cases, I even offered to help them run the event as a secondary organizer. Eventually, even if I poured a considerable amount of effort behind the scenes to assist these individuals, they would lose interest, and they would cancel the event.

If we answer the question as to why people lose interest or don't have the time to run clans or events, then we can better understand our role in facilitating that. See a quote below, just made in this topic:

It takes 2 boat loads of extra time to run a clan.......lol
I ran OSA temporarily and believe me..... I am relieved Benga ( Worlds Most Bestest Clan Leader)
came back to continue his top notch Clan. Its not Easy and very time demanding.

Another question that we should probably be asking is the reason people are losing interest because it is too difficult? Are there any site-wide changes that we can make for Clan Leaders/Clan Event Organizers that will make the actual leadership/organization easier? Right now, Clan War and Clan Event managing is a very manual process.

1. Make the clan world more inviting to players by not being so closed off. Like, clan league finished - how is that not banner worthy? Clan mvp should be posted, winners celebrated. CCXI should be pinned to GD. People are competitive, let then see there is a competitive part to this site and that its fun. Pump up clans, and thats on CDs. You have to get out and at least try. Clans should be the premier part of the site - players should WANT to get involved. Not have to hunt for anything clan related or have no idea it even exists. Imo, this is the most important thing. If the CDs and the site dont care, then its damn near impossible.

I actually agree, the results of CL & MVPs would be very beneficial if added to the Banner. I'll take an action to discuss that amongst the CDs and see if we can't get that to show up. Appreciate the suggestion on this one!

Maybe there needs to be a clan leadership pipeline and everyone needs to be ok with it. For example - nobody in Venom wants to lead but maybe there are one or two players spread across other clans who are ready and able to lead a clan. A resource for that, that doesnt end in someone screaming "poaching!!!", might be a good idea. Just a thought. It's in everyone's best interest to have a good number of clans active. The more the merrier.

I think this goes back to the Active Player Restriction discussion, or at least a portion of that discussion. "Poaching," as you put it, is what initialized this discussion a while ago. It may be worth revisiting the discussion now.

As long as the current Head CD is happy doing nothing, then nothing will change. Let JP or shoop have a chance to lead us out of this quagmire of stagnation.

Does this make me the court jester?

That being said, I also have no idea what’s being planned (or not being planned) as the teams been pretty quiet. Nothings been said / announced by Dave since shoop joined the team a year and a half ago? And the team itself has been pretty quiet, I just noticed Lindax isn’t even on the team anymore? Not sure when that happened or if it’s temporary.

Definitely could be more outreach to the Community, besides Jd posting every once in awhile I don’t really see the team posting much

No, Lindax has left the CD Team. We appreciate the time that he served as a CD.

We are in talks about a few things. One of those things we have been talking about recently is CWC, which is why I posted a poll to gauge interest. That poll essentially gave us the answer as to whether or not we would run the event. But, as I am sure you are aware, some things come down to time and timing.

---

Ultimately, and I have said this before, we appreciate constructive feedback. We understand that we aren't perfect and that we don't always get everything right, or necessarily come up with the best plan. And we try to own mistakes when we make them. But what I have made abundantly clear over the years is that I am always approachable. Some of you that are reading this do send me PMs with questions and concerns. I would welcome all of you to do that when you reach that tipping point.

[Nut Shot Scott]

I think you also have to understand, its not your vision for the clan area, your creativity, or anything else but the owners vision that matters.

Disagree. Sure, there are structural/site things that could help but drawing interest to the clan stage and making it more inviting for new members and leaders is not the owners issue. That falls on the people who have taken it upon themselves to be leaders of the area in question - in this case, clans, as well as the players in said arena - us.

2) Mid to bottom tier clans are free to have fun, and not just there to lose to top clans. In fact I'd argue based on the rankings / ratings discussions recently, in fact if anything the top tier clans avoid warring them because its not fun for either side unless forced to through a competition. The different leagues have always been around to help facilitate not getting spanked constantly by the upper tiers, and they're free and able to do pick up wars as well as other stuff, like the invitational. Other events can be created to get these group(s) to be more active as well. The conquerors cup has always been "open to all" so any clan can try and match up / play the top competition. But generally speaking, there is less interest in that then there has been in the past.

I mostly agree. If a clan wants to try their hand vs a top clan, the only opportunity may be Cup, in which case good on them. The bigger issue with the gap is, I think, the low number of truly active clans. It just makes the gaps appear larger because there aren't nearly as many opportunities out there to get involved/practice and "level up". Caymans analogy of adult sports is great.

Other things that helped was creating new / interesting events. ID was inactive for quite some time, and when CR@W was developed some of their members were interested enough in the event that a player stepped up, became a new clan leader for them, recruited people to participate in the event and they survived a few years before withdrawing from the scene again. No efforts are going to be permanent, but a lot of little efforts combined can make a difference of a more exciting, lasting, and thriving Clan Community.

I dont think the current issue is lack of events. Thats like running before you crawl. The current issue is lack of players/leaders willing to, in a way, redevelop the scene. You need those people first, bolster the ranks, then you worry about creating events to keep them happy and engaged. Right now, if you're in, you're probably in regardless so a new event isn't going to move the needle.

Fastposted:

As a discussion with BigWham once went along that lines, and the answer was - so whats stopping you from doing that now?

This is a fair point in a vacuum. Fact is, I'm open to helping develop something that helps to move things forward but in this situation, it's not realistic to do that without active support from the powers that be.

[IcePack]

I disagree with the notion that the CD Team has done nothing. CC and CL are two huge events that the CD Team puts on, and we wanted to try and see how CWC would be taken.

My statement was not that CD Team has done nothing.

since the CD team has reverted to not doing very many of their own events expecting the Community to step up, stagnation will / has(?) occurred.

CC and CL are big clan events on the calendar, but I also know they require very little work behind the scenes these days to put on.

However, for the longest time, the Clan World hasn't been receptive to another major tournament outside of CL, CC, and RL. I agree that CWC could have been communicated better, but even if CWC would have been ran perfectly, would the Clan World still have accepted it? In your honest opinion, do you think the Clan World would accept any new tournament?

Yeah, I do think so. I put on quite a few that were pretty well received. I dont think its out of the realm of reality to say that new Tournaments would be accepted within the Clan Community. IDK specifically if CWC is the one, or something else. I would have a harder time saying that there would be accepted REPLACEMENTS of the existing major three, but new ones that are accepted and well received? Certainly.

I'll grant you that. CD&F did exist before I was brought on, and I am not aware of any conversations you had with the admins. However, you and I both understand the difference between prototype and production (referring to an industry standard). A lot of careful transitioning is needed to take an idea and create an actual avenue for that idea to flourish.

I do know the difference, but I also know it was more then conversation and had been fully beta tested by the time I left. At that point, it was basically just KA moving the section to the Clan forum which was on hold until the timing was going to coincide with an upcoming Newsletter so that it could be announced, nuances explained, etc. Far from "prototype" / conceptual.

My observation on why individuals do not have an interest in running clans or running events is that is extremely time consuming, and people over time lose interest. No amount of tournaments hosted by the CDs will change that.

I have personally experienced this, because I have contacted many people in the Clan World about helping me run a few minor Clan Tournaments or Clan Events. The answer I would always receive is that no one either had the time (due to other commitments in their clan or personal) to help me run the event or they did not have interest in running the event.

I have experienced this second-had as a CD, because I have been contacted by several individuals if they could run a Clan Events. In some cases, I even offered to help them run the event as a secondary organizer. Eventually, even if I poured a considerable amount of effort behind the scenes to assist these individuals, they would lose interest, and they would cancel the event.

If we answer the question as to why people lose interest or don't have the time to run clans or events, then we can better understand our role in facilitating that.

Another question that we should probably be asking is the reason people are losing interest because it is too difficult? Are there any site-wide changes that we can make for Clan Leaders/Clan Event Organizers that will make the actual leadership/organization easier? Right now, Clan War and Clan Event managing is a very manual process.

There had been some plans / discussion on automation of wars, and building standard formatting things back in the day. Not sure if anythings been done on that front since I left or not. But the idea was to reduce the effort needed from Clan Leaders, and increase some pick up wars through standardization while allowing the custom war / events to continue to flourish.

I think this goes back to the Active Player Restriction discussion, or at least a portion of that discussion. "Poaching," as you put it, is what initialized this discussion a while ago. It may be worth revisiting the discussion now.

I'm not sure NSS's comments have relevance to the active player restriction, which is about max size of clans. Not allowing possible people to be in more then one clan to assist. As he and cayman both said, they aren't willing to start their own / leave their current but are possibly interested in assisting some other clan apart from their own. Implementing player maximums only forces people to make decisions that upset people and the Community (no need to look further then Tribes recent attempt to do this)

No, Lindax has left the CD Team. We appreciate the time that he served as a CD.

When did that happen, and why hasn't it been announced? I'm sure other people would like to know / thank him for the time served potentially, or at least be informed so they know who to contact for Clan Events / Tournaments side of things?

We are in talks about a few things. One of those things we have been talking about recently is CWC, which is why I posted a poll to gauge interest. That poll essentially gave us the answer as to whether or not we would run the event. But, as I am sure you are aware, some things come down to time and timing.

Yeah I saw that, it was nice to see some activity and outreach on that one.

Ultimately, and I have said this before, we appreciate constructive feedback. We understand that we aren't perfect and that we don't always get everything right, or necessarily come up with the best plan. And we try to own mistakes when we make them. But what I have made abundantly clear over the years is that I am always approachable. Some of you that are reading this do send me PMs with questions and concerns. I would welcome all of you to do that when you reach that tipping point.

Honestly out of all the CD's, I would have to disagree in my limited experience. The others when approached I've mostly have had positive responses and were very approachable. When I asked you about something, it took multiple messages to get any sort of response, and when I did it was "if you have a question go ask someone else". Maybe you were just having a bad day, or week, or month, IDK. But it was pretty jarring when asking simple questions to get a response like that from you. I'd approach any of the other existing CD team members prior to reaching out at this point based on the few interactions I've had.

[IcePack]

I think you also have to understand, its not your vision for the clan area, your creativity, or anything else but the owners vision that matters.

Disagree. Sure, there are structural/site things that could help but drawing interest to the clan stage and making it more inviting for new members and leaders is not the owners issue. That falls on the people who have taken it upon themselves to be leaders of the area in question - in this case, clans, as well as the players in said arena - us.

2) Mid to bottom tier clans are free to have fun, and not just there to lose to top clans. In fact I'd argue based on the rankings / ratings discussions recently, in fact if anything the top tier clans avoid warring them because its not fun for either side unless forced to through a competition. The different leagues have always been around to help facilitate not getting spanked constantly by the upper tiers, and they're free and able to do pick up wars as well as other stuff, like the invitational. Other events can be created to get these group(s) to be more active as well. The conquerors cup has always been "open to all" so any clan can try and match up / play the top competition. But generally speaking, there is less interest in that then there has been in the past.

I mostly agree. If a clan wants to try their hand vs a top clan, the only opportunity may be Cup, in which case good on them. The bigger issue with the gap is, I think, the low number of truly active clans. It just makes the gaps appear larger because there aren't nearly as many opportunities out there to get involved/practice and "level up". Caymans analogy of adult sports is great.

Other things that helped was creating new / interesting events. ID was inactive for quite some time, and when CR@W was developed some of their members were interested enough in the event that a player stepped up, became a new clan leader for them, recruited people to participate in the event and they survived a few years before withdrawing from the scene again. No efforts are going to be permanent, but a lot of little efforts combined can make a difference of a more exciting, lasting, and thriving Clan Community.

I dont think the current issue is lack of events. Thats like running before you crawl. The current issue is lack of players/leaders willing to, in a way, redevelop the scene. You need those people first, bolster the ranks, then you worry about creating events to keep them happy and engaged. Right now, if you're in, you're probably in regardless so a new event isn't going to move the needle.

Fastposted:

As a discussion with BigWham once went along that lines, and the answer was - so whats stopping you from doing that now?

This is a fair point in a vacuum. Fact is, I'm open to helping develop something that helps to move things forward but in this situation, it's not realistic to do that without active support from the powers that be.

The Owners vision for the Clan area also oversees who is running that, who is placed in the position to run it, etc. That is what I was getting at. Not who can make structural changes, but who handles and places the team in place to begin with.

I agree with the amount of active clans, but again thats more emblematic of the site in general declining then directly related to the clan scene. There are still ways to tailor events and things to the clan scene as it exists to keep / make it more active then it is currently.

Lack of players and leaders again is tied more towards the site decline which then means as time goes on, clan numbers decline. You won't have the same number of clans filling in the gaps with 5000 active site players, as there was when there was 30,000. Trying to compare now to the glory days is really difficult, you'll never hit those numbers. Through pretty extensive tracking of clan numbers and players, and game counts, when I was on the team we were able to show that activity and events actually had Clan numbers / players declining at a slower pace then the site as a whole. Meaning, it kept people around because they were in clans compared to other areas of the site. I would think broadly speaking, those numbers would be much closer to or worse then site numbers at this point. (but thats just a guess, based on anecdotal observations since I'm not able to track the numbers like I used to when I was on the team)

Keeping them happy and engaged, while ALSO coupled with your #1 proposal is likely the best approach possible. Celebrate MVP's, Winners, etc. The Newsletters helped keep people informed as well especially of major happenings and events. Competitions, prizes, everything was neatly in one area to be reviewed by the Community as a whole.

Though I think part of the issue there - again is you'll have the "haves" and "have nots". Top tier clans and players will always get the accolades and MVP's and acknowledgements if the events aren't geared towards different tiers of clans keeping other clans able to earn some of their own.

And yeah, thats a fair response. I responded similarly. But ultimately, whats to say you dont have the support of the current CD team as it stands to do something?

[Jdsizzleslice]

I disagree with the notion that the CD Team has done nothing. CC and CL are two huge events that the CD Team puts on, and we wanted to try and see how CWC would be taken.

My statement was not that CD Team has done nothing.

since the CD team has reverted to not doing very many of their own events expecting the Community to step up, stagnation will / has(?) occurred.

CC and CL are big clan events on the calendar, but I also know they require very little work behind the scenes these days to put on.

This is what I was referencing:

But this is also where the answer can't be that they're doing nothing either. Its hard to grow anything if its rinse, recycle, repeat and thats it.

And I would disagree that CC and CL require very little work behind the scenes to manage (having ran a few of these).

Yeah, I do think so. I put on quite a few that were pretty well received. I dont think its out of the realm of reality to say that new Tournaments would be accepted within the Clan Community. IDK specifically if CWC is the one, or something else. I would have a harder time saying that there would be accepted REPLACEMENTS of the existing major three, but new ones that are accepted and well received? Certainly.

Sure, a non-recurring tournament may be received positively. My statement was geared towards tournaments with an intent to be hosted regularly outside of CC, CL, and RL.

I do know the difference, but I also know it was more then conversation and had been fully beta tested by the time I left. At that point, it was basically just KA moving the section to the Clan forum which was on hold until the timing was going to coincide with an upcoming Newsletter so that it could be announced, nuances explained, etc. Far from "prototype" / conceptual.

I remember the discussion of potentially moving it public when I first joined, but never really any specifics besides it was something that had been discussed. Regardless of who is right, to me right now is irrelevant. The point I made with this is that the implementation of CAT was one example to combat the idea that the CDs don't really do anything.

There had been some plans / discussion on automation of wars, and building standard formatting things back in the day. Not sure if anythings been done on that front since I left or not. But the idea was to reduce the effort needed from Clan Leaders, and increase some pick up wars through standardization while allowing the custom war / events to continue to flourish.

I think we can definitely discuss more specifics about that, sure, with Admin involved.

I'm not sure NSS's comments have relevance to the active player restriction, which is about max size of clans. Not allowing possible people to be in more then one clan to assist. As he and cayman both said, they aren't willing to start their own / leave their current but are possibly interested in assisting some other clan apart from their own. Implementing player maximums only forces people to make decisions that upset people and the Community (no need to look further then Tribes recent attempt to do this)

Right, that portion of the conversation doesn't apply. What does apply is "poaching" or a mass exodus from one clan into another. That is what ignited that initial conversation, and I was only suggesting that since Keefie is no longer going to be a Clan Leader for Venom, we may want to revisit a portion of that thread.

When did that happen, and why hasn't it been announced? I'm sure other people would like to know / thank him for the time served potentially, or at least be informed so they know who to contact for Clan Events / Tournaments side of things?

I am not going to get into specifics about how he left. Dave or Lindax can choose to reveal information as they so desire.

Honestly out of all the CD's, I would have to disagree in my limited experience. The others when approached I've mostly have had positive responses and were very approachable. When I asked you about something, it took multiple messages to get any sort of response, and when I did it was "if you have a question go ask someone else". Maybe you were just having a bad day, or week, or month, IDK. But it was pretty jarring when asking simple questions to get a response like that from you. I'd approach any of the other existing CD team members prior to reaching out at this point based on the few interactions I've had.

Would you be willing to provide me a specific example here in this thread (PMs, quotes from other posts, etc.) of when I did not meet your expectations? Was this multiple occurrences or just one? I believe I remember the one instance you are referring to, and the issue you had send me needed to be resolved by the Clan Dept. Leader, so that's why I pointed you to Dave.

[IcePack]

I disagree with the notion that the CD Team has done nothing. CC and CL are two huge events that the CD Team puts on, and we wanted to try and see how CWC would be taken.

My statement was not that CD Team has done nothing.

since the CD team has reverted to not doing very many of their own events expecting the Community to step up, stagnation will / has(?) occurred.

CC and CL are big clan events on the calendar, but I also know they require very little work behind the scenes these days to put on.

This is what I was referencing:

But this is also where the answer can't be that they're doing nothing either. Its hard to grow anything if its rinse, recycle, repeat and thats it.

And I would disagree that CC and CL require very little work behind the scenes to manage (having ran a few of these).

Yeah, I do think so. I put on quite a few that were pretty well received. I dont think its out of the realm of reality to say that new Tournaments would be accepted within the Clan Community. IDK specifically if CWC is the one, or something else. I would have a harder time saying that there would be accepted REPLACEMENTS of the existing major three, but new ones that are accepted and well received? Certainly.

Sure, a non-recurring tournament may be received positively. My statement was geared towards tournaments with an intent to be hosted regularly outside of CC, CL, and RL.

I do know the difference, but I also know it was more then conversation and had been fully beta tested by the time I left. At that point, it was basically just KA moving the section to the Clan forum which was on hold until the timing was going to coincide with an upcoming Newsletter so that it could be announced, nuances explained, etc. Far from "prototype" / conceptual.

I remember the discussion of potentially moving it public when I first joined, but never really any specifics besides it was something that had been discussed. Regardless of who is right, to me right now is irrelevant. The point I made with this is that the implementation of CAT was one example to combat the idea that the CDs don't really do anything.

There had been some plans / discussion on automation of wars, and building standard formatting things back in the day. Not sure if anythings been done on that front since I left or not. But the idea was to reduce the effort needed from Clan Leaders, and increase some pick up wars through standardization while allowing the custom war / events to continue to flourish.

I think we can definitely discuss more specifics about that, sure, with Admin involved.

I'm not sure NSS's comments have relevance to the active player restriction, which is about max size of clans. Not allowing possible people to be in more then one clan to assist. As he and cayman both said, they aren't willing to start their own / leave their current but are possibly interested in assisting some other clan apart from their own. Implementing player maximums only forces people to make decisions that upset people and the Community (no need to look further then Tribes recent attempt to do this)

Right, that portion of the conversation doesn't apply. What does apply is "poaching" or a mass exodus from one clan into another. That is what ignited that initial conversation, and I was only suggesting that since Keefie is no longer going to be a Clan Leader for Venom, we may want to revisit a portion of that thread.

When did that happen, and why hasn't it been announced? I'm sure other people would like to know / thank him for the time served potentially, or at least be informed so they know who to contact for Clan Events / Tournaments side of things?

I am not going to get into specifics about how he left. Dave or Lindax can choose to reveal information as they so desire.

Honestly out of all the CD's, I would have to disagree in my limited experience. The others when approached I've mostly have had positive responses and were very approachable. When I asked you about something, it took multiple messages to get any sort of response, and when I did it was "if you have a question go ask someone else". Maybe you were just having a bad day, or week, or month, IDK. But it was pretty jarring when asking simple questions to get a response like that from you. I'd approach any of the other existing CD team members prior to reaching out at this point based on the few interactions I've had.

Would you be willing to provide me a specific example here in this thread (PMs, quotes from other posts, etc.) of when I did not meet your expectations? Was this multiple occurrences or just one? I believe I remember the one instance you are referring to, and the issue you had send me needed to be resolved by the Clan Dept. Leader, so that's why I pointed you to Dave.

Maybe your / my version of “very little work” are different. I’ve run a few of them as well, and there isn’t much to it. The rules aren’t changing much, database and what not is minimal. One person could pretty easily run all 3 of those events and still do more.

I was also referencing a reoccurring tournament outside of CC, CL, RL. Not sure where the confusion is. I believe there is / would be interest within the community.

Understood, as I said, it’s nit picky but was pointing out that it wasn’t something created / planned, though was finalized. Comparatively the team had been doing very little. The team was expanded when I was around because we were taking more on with events etc, the team size was kept the same even though substantially less was being done. So while managing the existing events isn’t “nothing’ compared to the team size the activity is comparably very little.

Yeah, idk what the current status of that stuff is, you’d know more whether the teams taken it anywhere or not. Was more mentioning for others sake about the automation.

Poaching concern that NSS raised is someone being in a different clan stealing their players, not mergers from one clan to another.

I didn’t ask how he left, I asked when and why it wasn’t announced or communicated to the community / clan leaders so they knew who to contact or that he had indeed left the team.

There were a number of instances, I’m not trying to rehash them as they’ve already been dealt with. The point is, saying your approachable is one thing. Being approachable is another. Constructive feedback - being approachable is definitely an area you can work on. Least from my perspective.

[barterer2002]

So having been in a clan of old (Generation One) and a rather prolific tournament organizer I find many of then complaints here indicative of CC as a whole. The community is different today than it was in 2008-12. It isn’t going to be that again. Trying to bring things back to where they were or remembering those as the glory days is an error. Time change. Cc has changed. Whether it be clans, tornaments or the foundry it’s just different. The thinking needs to change as well. Answer these questions honestly, without nostalgia

1). Do clans have a place in modern CC? This is something that I can’t answer for today as G1 is fairly dormant. I know what it was like back in the day. I have no idea what other clans were like then or now. My general reaction is yes there is still a place for clans buts that’s something those currently involved need to answer

2. Assuming they do have a place what is it. Are they social. Are they competitive. A combination. Is the clan league still important. Are there limits on how many should be in a clan (for competitive purposes) Should clans have competitive and non competitive members? What are the responsibilities of clan membership, what are the rights of clan membership. Does it need to be the same for all clans.

The reality is I’d guess less than half the active CC membership at any time joined a clan. When there were 12-15k that’s a significant number. When there is 4-5 it’s less. That’s just reality. My guess is clan members stay longer and are more integrated into the community and thus bring in more revenue but I’m just guessing on that.

[Shannon Apple]

Why is there blame being thrown around? I know from my own experience that when it comes to leading anything, whether that's being a mod, or being a clan leader (doesn't have to be CC) there's a certain pattern that always happens. Good people burn out and stop doing all the work, then things fall apart. No one else wants to pick up the slack and so you end up with less clans.

It is VERY hard to find good people, and when people have them, they don't appreciate them, so they burn out. They are always too busy to help. They have lives, they have jobs, they have families. They don't care that the guy doing it all has all of these things too. But they can still come here and play loads of games. There is a saying "many hands make light work" so if people actually helped out, the work in running clans would be quite small.

[rockfist]

Why is there blame being thrown around? I know from my own experience that when it comes to leading anything, whether that's being a mod, or being a clan leader (doesn't have to be CC) there's a certain pattern that always happens. Good people burn out and stop doing all the work, then things fall apart. No one else wants to pick up the slack and so you end up with less clans.

It is VERY hard to find good people, and when people have them, they don't appreciate them, so they burn out. They are always too busy to help. They have lives, they have jobs, they have families. They don't care that the guy doing it all has all of these things too. But they can still come here and play loads of games. There is a saying "many hands make light work" so if people actually helped out, the work in running clans would be quite small.

Yes, this is it in a nutshell.

[Keefie]

Why is there blame being thrown around? I know from my own experience that when it comes to leading anything, whether that's being a mod, or being a clan leader (doesn't have to be CC) there's a certain pattern that always happens. Good people burn out and stop doing all the work, then things fall apart. No one else wants to pick up the slack and so you end up with less clans.

It is VERY hard to find good people, and when people have them, they don't appreciate them, so they burn out. They are always too busy to help. They have lives, they have jobs, they have families. They don't care that the guy doing it all has all of these things too. But they can still come here and play loads of games. There is a saying "many hands make light work" so if people actually helped out, the work in running clans would be quite small.

This is exactly why I'm stepping down. Literally 9 1/2 years of doing it all by myself.

[Keefie]

In an earlier post I made a very clumsy comment that the current Head CD was happy doing nothing.

I'd like to apologise for this remark, it was not the message that I was trying to convey.

Dave, please accept my apologies.

[iAmCaffeine]

Recently Craig25 had a great idea for creating new clans via one of his tournaments. I haven't checked but I hope that it's still in progress. The clan department should reach out to Craig and do everything they can to make that a success.

Doubt it. Dude has no clue about clans and criticises people for not participating, or not accepting random stripers with no team experience. He's an idiot, always has been.

[benga]

As an organizer/founder of most of competitions in clan world I say there was no activity before me and it's not likely there will be:
Newcomers Cup #5
Mini Cup #4
Random League #11
Random Cup #1
Invitational Cup #3

There are 2 factors that prevent me for putting more effort:

• CDs schedules that limit the number of competitions so they have something all around the year
• lower clans that can't organize themselves to keep up with schedule

Also from my experience I need to beg clans to join and play, what would be reasonable if they are ready to organize something themselves or there are enough competitions going around. And even worse all those time spent doesn't in the end help clans.
Caff did more then me by just starting 3-4 clans over the years.
So we need more Caff people here.

In conclusion, clans are not dead, the investment needed goes beyond casual 5 min a day.
Pretty much clans outside top 10, even in top 10 don't have the will, time or whatever to be competitive.
Those clans that want a casual pace don't want to put the bare minimum to participate/organize something.

[iAmCaffeine]

I only started 2 clans, both now in the top 10. My larger contribution comes down to recruitment more than anything. Plenty of people in A^ and ICON had barely played team games before, much less aware of clans and how they worked. Now they're well established players in the scene.

[willedtowin1]

Why is there blame being thrown around? I know from my own experience that when it comes to leading anything, whether that's being a mod, or being a clan leader (doesn't have to be CC) there's a certain pattern that always happens. Good people burn out and stop doing all the work, then things fall apart. No one else wants to pick up the slack and so you end up with less clans.

It is VERY hard to find good people, and when people have them, they don't appreciate them, so they burn out. They are always too busy to help. They have lives, they have jobs, they have families. They don't care that the guy doing it all has all of these things too. But they can still come here and play loads of games. There is a saying "many hands make light work" so if people actually helped out, the work in running clans would be quite small.

I agree for the most part..... But
A Active Clan's Leader will ALWAYS have boat loads of work no matter what.
Its the nature of the Beast.

The thing that seems to be a missing component is.....
Longevity
Honestly ask yourself how many people will put in that much time
for 10 years straight? And the Politics on this site seems SO DISRESPECTFUL
to the casual onlooker many times IMO.
Just an opinion from the peanut gallery. Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 ( 10 years )

That's why I always give Huge Props to Benga!
Most Bestest Clan Leader EVER!

[willedtowin1]

If you are sitting on the toilet at 11:59


And the clocks strikes midnight.........


Then you have




,,,,



Same Shit, Different Day

[Craig25]

Ty Keefie, N1.

As for iamcaffeine, I have never actually spoke to this muppet in my life!

Dude's fucking psychotic by the sounds of it! LOL

Recently Craig25 had a great idea for creating new clans via one of his tournaments. I haven't checked but I hope that it's still in progress. The clan department should reach out to Craig and do everything they can to make that a success.

Doubt it. Dude has no clue about clans and criticises people for not participating, or not accepting random stripers with no team experience. He's an idiot, always has been.

[Swimmerdude99]

I think its interesting that the comments here are being viewed as anything but constructive. Voicing disappointment doesn't have to automatically mean not constructive. Its both important to recognize limitations of the site leadership as well as the ability and time that mods have to implement changes.

While I haven't had time to read everything here, Ice, Keef, and NSS have all made some great contributions and ideas here. I'm glad to hear that jdsizzle will bring up the banner Idea as I think that is top notch. Something about clan events would be such a great way to draw people into the fun of being part of a winning team or struggling. Even a random list of current wars going on or something could also spike interest. Get the normal folk chiming in on wars, and start having something to strive towards would be some possible cool community engagement.

As a response to those who may feel like people are attacking mods. Remember you guys are people who respond emotionally to us, and we do the same. When it comes to talking about actions, past and current, I have NOT seen a good job from certain CDs in admitting when they have been incorrect or made a poor choice. Maybe they just don't have time for it. But I'm guessing it stems more from not feeling recognized for the work they do put in and feeling that criticism which aims to make this site last longer, or even grow, can be annoying to them since they don't have the allowance, or power to make those changes or see things move along. I've offered to do work for free on the site on multiple occasions and heard nothing but silence. I know there is a bottle neck and appreciate the mods trying to get things done.

[Swimmerdude99]

Why is there blame being thrown around? I know from my own experience that when it comes to leading anything, whether that's being a mod, or being a clan leader (doesn't have to be CC) there's a certain pattern that always happens. Good people burn out and stop doing all the work, then things fall apart. No one else wants to pick up the slack and so you end up with less clans.

It is VERY hard to find good people, and when people have them, they don't appreciate them, so they burn out. They are always too busy to help. They have lives, they have jobs, they have families. They don't care that the guy doing it all has all of these things too. But they can still come here and play loads of games. There is a saying "many hands make light work" so if people actually helped out, the work in running clans would be quite small.

Not only that, but often those who have issues aren't able or aren't willing to provide a solution when they become upset about something so that can constantly grow a sore. This is also true of the mods. I've known and seen mods get burnt because they can't do things to grow the community. In a way they shield the owner from the community, but when not enough gets done at the top, they get burnt by community dissatisfaction and become the target of that dissatisfaction because they are actually communicating what is happening and it SEEMS like they have control. But really they are mostly unpaid workhorses that give up time to make all of us happy

[iAmCaffeine]

Ty Keefie, N1.

As for iamcaffeine, I have never actually spoke to this muppet in my life!

Dude's fucking psychotic by the sounds of it! LOL

Recently Craig25 had a great idea for creating new clans via one of his tournaments. I haven't checked but I hope that it's still in progress. The clan department should reach out to Craig and do everything they can to make that a success.

Doubt it. Dude has no clue about clans and criticises people for not participating, or not accepting random stripers with no team experience. He's an idiot, always has been.

we've played 83 times but even then, i'm quite happy we've never had a proper conversation. let's keep it that way.

[Shannon Apple]

Why is there blame being thrown around? I know from my own experience that when it comes to leading anything, whether that's being a mod, or being a clan leader (doesn't have to be CC) there's a certain pattern that always happens. Good people burn out and stop doing all the work, then things fall apart. No one else wants to pick up the slack and so you end up with less clans.

It is VERY hard to find good people, and when people have them, they don't appreciate them, so they burn out. They are always too busy to help. They have lives, they have jobs, they have families. They don't care that the guy doing it all has all of these things too. But they can still come here and play loads of games. There is a saying "many hands make light work" so if people actually helped out, the work in running clans would be quite small.

I agree for the most part..... But
A Active Clan's Leader will ALWAYS have boat loads of work no matter what.
Its the nature of the Beast.

The thing that seems to be a missing component is.....
Longevity
Honestly ask yourself how many people will put in that much time
for 10 years straight? And the Politics on this site seems SO DISRESPECTFUL
to the casual onlooker many times IMO.
Just an opinion from the peanut gallery. Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 ( 10 years )

That's why I always give Huge Props to Benga!
Most Bestest Clan Leader EVER!

You see, here's the thing. I have never been a clan leader on CC, and there is a reason for that. I don't want to, and I have never offered to do it. I have been MoW for a clan war here as a non-leader. I was and still am willing to help out if needed, but I do not want to take on a position of responsibility. I would rather stay in a place where others tell me what to do. Same goes for being a mod, I have no desire to be a team leader. (Outside of CC, I've pretty much, been there, done that, wore the T-shirt and burned out more than once due to other people's laziness. Now the thought just tires me more. )

I have experience of being THAT person and it has nothing to do with CC. And hmmm, I probably did do it for 10 years straight. It actually came down to people knowing how much I and one other person cared about the place and leaving everything to me and him because they knew we'd do it. (That ended when we threatened to leave, after a full year of them doing nothing).

But that's not what I am asking here. If you are part of a clan, you should be willing to step up if you're active and the need arises. If you are actively playing a bunch of games on here, then you do have the time to give a small hand to your clan. That could be helping to run ONE clan war for this year. It does not require a year's long commitment. If a leader, like Keefie, needs help, I really don't see why different people within a clan can't step up and lend the leader a hand. It's the least they could do.

[iAmCaffeine]

But that's not what I am asking here. If you are part of a clan, you should be willing to step up if you're active and the need arises. If you are actively playing a bunch of games on here, then you do have the time to give a small hand to your clan. That could be helping to run ONE clan war for this year. It does not require a year's long commitment. If a leader, like Keefie, needs help, I really don't see why different people within a clan can't step up and lend the leader a hand. It's the least they could do.

That's assuming you would want them to step up and run a war. It's not like just being a decent player means you're going to do the map/player research needed for a proper war. Different skills.

[rockfist]

But that's not what I am asking here. If you are part of a clan, you should be willing to step up if you're active and the need arises. If you are actively playing a bunch of games on here, then you do have the time to give a small hand to your clan. That could be helping to run ONE clan war for this year. It does not require a year's long commitment. If a leader, like Keefie, needs help, I really don't see why different people within a clan can't step up and lend the leader a hand. It's the least they could do.

That's assuming you would want them to step up and run a war. It's not like just being a decent player means you're going to do the map/player research needed for a proper war. Different skills.

I can't imagine running a war (picking games and teams) for a mid pack clan. It would have to be murder. I doubt I could do it.