Nantucket v11

[BabySasuke]

needs more whale access points

I'd like to consider this suggestion and it would help if you'd explain why you think the whales should be more accessible.

currently whales are stupid OP, espc if considering trench. if you hold x amount of whales for 7, once people fight for the whales, wholeever holds them all has a crazy chokehold on there bonus

should do like, certins places on the island hit certain whales

[riskllama]

or maybe just get rid of the whales altogether...

[HitRed]

Consider the town being able to attack the Admiral Canton and then the ship can bombard the whales, so trench isn't an issue. The ship would be killer neutral 2 for easy access. It wouldn't be used till many turns into the game, when a whale is first taken. Which is cool as it is a strategic asset not a short term one.


The town being the only access point for the ship. The proverbial cork in the bottle.

[Minister X]

Whew! While I was composing the below response to Ian, three other posts were made. Let me post this response to Ian then I'll reply to the others separately...

The sperm whale has teeth! Truth to tell, after I found these pics I tried like heck to identify each species, looking at all sorts of whale ID websites. The problem is that the old artists didn't place an awful lot of stock in anatomical accuracy. I did the best I could. There are a large number of different "right whale" species, for instance. This bit of art sort of looked like some of them, so I adopted the generic name. BTW, they called them "right" whales because the economics and technology of whaling at the time made them the right type of whales to hunt.

Increasing the importance of "Town" is a very good idea. I can think of a variety of ways to do it:
1) Make it an autodeploy of 2 or 3.
2) Reduce the number of other terts that provide access to the sea.
3) Make the whale bonuses conditional on holding "Town".
4) Make the whale bonuses conditional not just on holding Town but also a sea path to it.
5) Make holding town increase some or all of the other bonuses by 1. For instance, when computing bonuses via the worksheet, subtract 0.5, then make up for that and then some if you hold Town. (I suspect something like this can be accomplished using "multiplier" in XML. True?)
6) Victory conditions.

Before we consider them let's talk about Town in general a bit. As I study the original 1776 map, which you can find here: http://www.old-maps.com/ma/ma_NantucketMaps/Nantucket_1776_DesBarres_web.jpg -- I see that at least 90% of the population of the island resided in Town. Some of the rest of the island was farmed and sheep were raised but the map shows almost no buildings outside Town except along the southern shore of the harbor and in two small villages on the eastern shore. Besides having the wharves the town undoubtedly served as a commercial center.

So... is Town deserving of a nice autodeploy as per #1? You bet.

#2 is problematic because of the existence of Madeket Harbor (I'd have to just eliminate it while perhaps leaving a connection between Madaket or Esther and Tuckernuck) and because Head of the Harbor must connect to The Harbor. I could make it that Squam and Quaise don't connect to the harbor terts but then Head of the Harbor becomes pointless.

#3 is better than #2 but doesn't make much logical sense. What about Madaket? It's also a harbor. If Town is made essential for whaling that makes Madaket much less useful and I think it needs to be useful to make that corner of the island more worthy of being contested.

#4 is problematic because it means needing to hold five terts before you even begin to hit the whales. That would dissuade people from going for the whales (unless we granted a huge bonus for doing so).

Would having access to Town make owning other property more worthwhile? It would be a necessity, so #5 also makes sense. But #5 is a bit complicated and would require a somewhat lengthy on-map explanation. Also, it makes Town almost TOO valuable. Most of the bonuses will be small. Turning all 1's into 2's and all 2's into 3's might be too much.

#6 -- I've not played many games with victory conditions, and none recently, so I'll need help here. I'm guessing they have to be more complex to make much sense. So... what if we made the entire game a quest to hold Town and all four whales? If Town, the whales, and all sea terts started neutral, but lightly so, the game might become a choice of two strategies: 1) grow fast and make a mad dash to win, or 2) seek to dominate bonuses and save the whales for last. In a 2-player game #1 becomes more likely; with four or more players #2 is likely to be adopted. But if the whale bonuses are large enough, and if the neutrals are weak enough, the whales might be contested fairly early even in a 5+ player game.

The simplest way to increase Town's worth is to grant it a generous autodeploy. That business with the victory conditions is intriguing but might it become too much of a determinant of gameplay? Can we set up neutrals and other starting conditions such that there's more than one good way to go about winning? If so, I lean toward this solution because it makes fighting your way toward the whaling grounds crucial, and this map should be primarily about whaling. Should all the terts connecting to Town start neutral? What about Madaket? Note that it's the fastest way to reach the whales; just two terts between it and Miacomet Rip, whereas from Town, either route, is an extra sea tert. I like that Madaket has that advantage but doesn't count for winning. That sort of evens things up between it and Town.

I bet we can make these victory conditions work if we put our minds to it. Please... any and all suggestions and help will be appreciated.

[Minister X]

currently whales are stupid OP, espc if considering trench. if you hold x amount of whales for 7, once people fight for the whales, wholeever holds them all has a crazy chokehold on there bonus

should do like, certins places on the island hit certain whales

or maybe just get rid of the whales altogether...

I believe whales (whaling) must be central to this map. It was a HUGE business at the time and is what old Nantucket was all about. Plus it gives this map a theme, something for players to remember, something that makes this map unique. I'm therefore less worried than Jack about the "crazy chokehold". As you can see in my reply to Ian I actually want to make the whales MORE important.

That said, I certainly don't want to make the map boring if played with certain rules like trench or fog. (I can't really understand why trench and fog are so popular but they are.) Making the whales accessible from more than two terts (essentially The Harbor and Madaket Harbor) might make sense for gameplay, but they are the only two harbors in existence. So let's examine HitRed's idea...

Consider the town being able to attack the Admiral Canton and then the ship can bombard the whales, so trench isn't an issue. The ship would be killer neutral 2 for easy access. It wouldn't be used till many turns into the game, when a whale is first taken. Which is cool as it is a strategic asset not a short term one.

The town being the only access point for the ship. The proverbial cork in the bottle.

I like this idea, especially if combined with my proposed victory conditions. But maybe let's have TWO ships, one accessible from Town and one from Madaket. Granted, that would make Town less important than if it's the only way to bombard, but it can have a nice autodeploy whereas to get even a small bonus out of Madaket you've got to also own Head of the Plains and Esther. Having two ships prevents any one player from monopolizing things. And you still need Town to win.

Now to make bombardment more logical, I'll place little whaling rowboats around each whale, as if the big ship is firing on the whalers instead of the whale. Can't bombard those poor whales!

The bombarding ships (the Admiral Canton and the Pequod) should be placed near their terts, and I can manage that if they're not too big. The rowboats will need some space. A bit of explanation would also be needed both for bombardment and victory conditions. This map is currently 938 x 743 pixels. I love that it's not cramped. Adding all that stuff will absolutely detract from the esthetics. Ian has not commented on the dimensions. I beg him to do so before I try to make the next version. I fully realize that this map does not qualify for extra size based on the number of terts (46). But if some accommodation can be made for esthetics I'd really appreciate it, and I bet a lot of CC players would as well. I'm currently 13% over the designated maximum width for a standard map. Can I go to 20% over if I find it's needed?

So what do you all think of the idea of adding the victory conditions and bombardment? I think it makes the map interesting without getting too crazy with special rules.

[HitRed]

Can't bombard those poor whales!

Hmmm, whales were harpooned.

4 whales Victory Condition.

Since getting to the whales takes a dominate player it is important to allow other weak players to block somehow. Have each port be able to attack the ship then bombard the whales and/or have the town do the same. The mini boats are complexity for complexity's sake. Having 2 ships is also complexity for complexity's sake. IMHO.

HitRed

[Minister X]

Doh! As a killer neutral of course we need only one ship. My stupid. The little rowboats are for graphic improvement only. They will have no effect on play. And I found some wonderful examples to copy. I guarantee they will add to the look and feel of the map or I won't use them. I'll probably move things around some, make the ship larger and the whales a bit smaller... to be determined.

[Minister X]

V4
• Victory conditions added.
• Various stuff moved around
• "The Pequod" named and made a killer neutral tert.
• Text explaining Pequod added.
• HitRed given XML credit
• On bonus inset map, shoals surrounding island removed to simplify image.
• On inset, regions named A through J (plus "T" for "Town"). (Remember that the numbers here are just the number of terts, actual bonuses TBD.)
• Renamed "Baleen Whale" as "Bowhead Whale". Renamed "Bowhead Whales" as "Gray Whale".



Well, it's getting crowded in here. The map size has not changed. I wanted to see if I could get everything new to fit without increasing size. I decided to forego the little rowboats for now since they would just add too much clutter at this size. I believe I could create an optional small map about 80% of this size by removing the Melville quote, shrinking the whales and ship, moving things around, and shrinking the maps and text only slightly. Ian: shall I do so or can I first up-size this main map a bit?

"The Admiral Canton" would be a pretty cool name but "Pequod" reinforces the Melville/whaling theme. Sorry, Ian. I'm sure you don't need the microscopic amount of immortality.

I dislike naming regions with nothing but letters but I can't think of a better alternative.

Additional research on whales and the whaling history of Nantucket resulted in the whale name changes.

So now the big question: retain these more complex rules despite the additional map clutter or go back to the much simpler rules and map?

[Minister X]

Note: some of the dotted white lines are less than smoothly curved. I'll redo them once just about everything else is settled; I don't want to have to redo them too many times.

[HitRed]

[BabySasuke]

old man shoal and miacomer rip should have acess from the island

[riskllama]

lose all the fancy bits & the bonus key, MinX...

[riskllama]

lose all the fancy bits & the bonus key, MinX...

[HitRed]

old man shoal and miacomer rip should have acess from the island

It represents travel, a voyage. You sail around the island hunting for whales.

HitRed

[Minister X]

So it seems HitRed likes the latest version while riskllama wants to go back to version 1. I can truly appreciate both opinions. Version 1 was so clean and pretty, I find it hard to cast it aside. Version 4 is intriguing and looks like it would be much more fun to play. I'm torn and anxiously await more opinions.

[HitRed]

The best books, movies, or maps take the reader to a place they have never been. The v4 map tells a story, adventure.

HitRed

Note: Age of Realms has 3 versions. Not to pile on your work load.

[BabySasuke]

i like v4, but would prefer more acess around the island still, whales and obj seem to far OP still

[Minister X]

i like v4, but would prefer more acess around the island still, whales and obj seem to far OP still

I've no idea what "OP" stands for but I get the gist of your complaint. Allow me to respond at length. First, I agree that it would not be the worst thing in the world if there was a third access point to the whales. I don't think it would hurt gameplay if it could be done correctly, and it might indeed help. The problem is doing it correctly and that problem is manifold.

Geographic history: the only real harbor is Town. The only reason I felt justified in adding a second at Madaket is that the bay there is listed as a "Harbor" on many old maps. But there's no evidence on these maps of any real use of the harbor; no wharves, no more than a couple of buildings. But since it is called "harbor"... mapmaker's license. It's a stretch but I felt we needed a second access point. Now... is there any hint of a possible third one? If you examine all the old maps at http://www.old-maps.com/ma/ma_CoBDN_Nantucket_TownMaps.htm you'll find absolutely no hint of a third possible harbor except at Quaise/Polpis/Pocomo/Squam where I've already got access to the sea, shared with Town via "The Harbor". Those don't effect gameplay much since all these routes pass through a single sea tert. To accomplish what you seek we'd need a harbor that's not along the north shore. There is one possibility. According to Wikipedia, "The original settlement was near Capaum Pond. At that time the pond was a small harbor, whose entrance silted up, forcing the settlers to dismantle their houses, and move them northeast by two miles to the present location." This had to happen some time before 1776 because my base map shows nothing near Capaum Pond (located in the Dionis tert as I've mapped things) and Town is quite built up. But it points to a relevant fact about the physical geography of many islands: shorelines can change quickly and radically. Harbors can silt up. On my map you can see three large ponds on the eastern and southern shores that one can presume were at one time inlets from the sea and might have served as safe harbors. Invoking mapmaker's license, I could erase the narrow strips of land separating them from the sea and declare them usable. As a stretch it's a few steps beyond Madaket but if gameplay demanded additional whale access it could be justified.

Cartographic practicalities: here's the real problem. If I gave Miacomet or Sankaty Head access to the sea, to which sea terts would they connect? The obvious answer is direct access to Miacomet Rip and Old Man Shoal respectively. That would give them a huge advantage over Town and Madaket, which have three and two intervening sea terts respectively. Could I create some additional terts to separate a new harbor from the whaling grounds? Sure, but where? There's no practical place to put these terts. From a map-making perspective, your suggestion presents huge problems.

Your complaint arises out of a worry regarding gameplay, I presume. I'm guessing you're worried that having just two choke points towards the victory conditions will in some way limit strategy and tactics. This is not an unreasonable worry. The question is whether that restriction will enhance or damage playability. It will certainly have a big effect. Given the problems with adding a third harbor I've outlined, I believe the only course of action is to await the results of extensive play-testing before possibly reconsidering the need for a third harbor.

In reality, leaving from Town, Nantucket ships traveled thousands of miles in search of whales. As HitRed said, "It represents travel, a voyage. You sail around the island hunting for whales." I have made Miacomet Rip and Old Man Shoals proxies for distant whaling grounds. Take a look at this map:



To make my game map realistic I should put a hundred terts between Town and the whales. The short trips to Miacomet Rip and Old Man Shoal are meant as a compromise between reality and CC playability.

[iancanton]

The sperm whale has teeth!

of course it does: it's obvious from the picture!

I see that at least 90% of the population of the island resided in Town. Some of the rest of the island was farmed and sheep were raised but the map shows almost no buildings outside Town except along the southern shore of the harbor and in two small villages on the eastern shore. Besides having the wharves the town undoubtedly served as a commercial center.

the map currently has eleven bonus zones, which is an extremely high number for its size. of these, only two have more regions than classic oceania. in 1v1, the usual way to win will therefore be to attack the enemy and grab a quick bonus if it can be held, ignoring the whales completely, which i'm sure is not what is intended.

for the town and the whales to play a bigger part in the game, i suggest something different from everything mentioned so far. considering the description of farms and sheep, the map seems crazily crowded, so try reducing the number of starting regions to 24 while redesigning the bonus zones so that they have a minimum of four regions. group together gosnold, town, monomoy and bartlett into a town bonus, with these being renamed as, for example, quaker meeting house, dock, mill and tailor, in no particular order. whale bonuses might be active only for the holder of the dock, as fully-laden ships cannot land their catch anywhere else. alternatively, sailors might refuse to board a ship unless its owner has someone praying for its safe return at the quaker meeting house; if there are already three potential boarding points, then quaise can lose its harbor access completely without too many ill-effects.

The best books, movies, or maps take the reader to a place they have never been. The v4 map tells a story, adventure.

this is why the whales must remain.

ian.

[Minister X]

v5 - many changes as noted below

the map currently has eleven bonus zones, which is an extremely high number for its size. of these, only two have more regions than classic oceania. in 1v1, the usual way to win will therefore be to attack the enemy and grab a quick bonus if it can be held, ignoring the whales completely, which i'm sure is not what is intended.

for the town and the whales to play a bigger part in the game, i suggest something different from everything mentioned so far. considering the description of farms and sheep, the map seems crazily crowded, so try reducing the number of starting regions to 24 while redesigning the bonus zones so that they have a minimum of four regions. group together gosnold, town, monomoy and bartlett into a town bonus, with these being renamed as, for example, quaker meeting house, dock, mill and tailor, in no particular order. whale bonuses might be active only for the holder of the dock, as fully-laden ships cannot land their catch anywhere else. alternatively, sailors might refuse to board a ship unless its owner has someone praying for its safe return at the quaker meeting house; if there are already three potential boarding points, then quaise can lose its harbor access completely without too many ill-effects.

As usual, Ian makes a very good point. I don't know if v5 solves the problem of the whales being ignored in a 1v1 game, but by eliminating two intervening sea terts I do make them easier to reach, and making bonus regions harder to hold on average will also help. If necessary we can up the whale bonuses. There's no reason they can't be adjusted as much as needed to enhance gameplay.

Switching from army boxes and connection lines to region and tert borders is an improvement, I believe. And by making region borders black while tert borders are white I eliminate all concern about color blindness; thus the region colors can be whatever I want. Those you see are my first take at them; I reserve the right to tinker with them endlessly.

Ian asked for the number of starting regions to be reduced to 24. I'm not sure exactly what he meant by "starting regions". Does this include land terts that always begin neutral, which I'm presuming are the four terts that connect to harbors? Does it mean ALL terts, including sea and whales? All sea and whale terts will start neutral. This map has 33 total terts including The Pequod and all the rest. It has 25 land terts; a maximum of 21 will start non-neutral. In fact, to avoid super-lucky drops, the three bonus regions that don't have obligatory port-connection neutrals should each have one. That makes a maximum of 18 droppable terts, which is a good number since it means few additional neutrals with various numbers of players:

2 players: no additional neutrals
3 players: no additional neutrals
4 players: 2 additional neutrals
5 players: 3 additional neutrals
6 players: no additional neutrals
7 players: 4 additional neutrals
8 players: 2 additional neutrals
9 players: no additional neutrals

I've indicated a bonus of three for each region but this is just a wild guess. When we settle on larger issues I'll run the calculations. I know it's odd to have five regions of four terts and one of five terts, but we want the whales to offer the best bonuses. Opinions?

Normally, you get an added army once you get 12 terts, 2 when you get 15, and so on. Should we count sea and whale terts in this calculation? If not, a note of that will have to be made, and the number of notes on the map is already... uh... copious. At least for me. I know lots of maps have book-length explanations on them. That's just not my style. In any case, it makes sense to allow sea and whale terts to count toward that tert-count bonus because it will encourage players to move that way. You need to win three terts (and thus get a bonus of one if you hold them) even before you get to the whales.

A serious question: I made the black region borders pretty smooth and straight. I could make them more herky-jerky like the natural border of those ponds or the shoreline around Madaket Harbor. It might look more natural that way given all the hills and dunes and whatnot on the base map but it might be a distraction. Any opinions? I might try it out just so all can judge.

[HitRed]

I like the new art.

There is a lot to unload from Ian's post.

XML wise. It might be best to short this out.

The whales must be tempting.

The land bonuses are too large at +3, I would never leave the island. Best to make the island starvation or near to it. +1s or Autodeploys +1s.

Flourishing must come from the sea!

Make the harbors a whaling fleet building area. They auto deploy +1 over time. The harbors to The Sound might need be one way then or players would quickly use them as ground troops. Maybe holding 4 ways allows that to be reversed as conditional.???

[Minister X]

The land bonuses are too large at +3, I would never leave the island. Best to make the island starvation or near to it. +1s or Autodeploys +1s.

Good point. Besides, gaining four terts more or less gets you a +1 just based on tert ownership.

Make the harbors a whaling fleet building area. They auto deploy +1 over time.

Please be careful here with nomenclature. Do you mean "Madaket Harbor" and "The Harbor" or do you mean Tuckernuck, Madaket, Docks and Polpis? In either case, there's already great incentive to take them because that's what gets you to the whales. If you add to the land bonuses, you're defeating your main purpose. Plus any of those things would necessitate yet another text note.

The harbors to The Sound must be one way then or players would quickly use them as ground troops. I would avoid using the harbors this way as again the would be ground troops.

I really can't quite grasp what you mean here. "Ground" troops as opposed to those armies that happen to be in sea terts? And if you make routes to the sound one way then whatever you send after the whales can never come back to land. Not only is that unrealistic, it creates a disincentive for going after the whales.

[Minister X]

Hey! No fair editing your text after I've quoted you.

Maybe holding 4 ways allows that to be reversed as conditional.???

Did you mean four whales instead of "4 ways"?

[iancanton]

the map looks a lot cleaner than before.

try to find a way of acknowledging the quakers, who were at their peak in nantucket during the whaling period.

http://www.quakersintheworld.org/quakers-in-action/198

ian.