CD should respect poll results.

[Caymanmew]

The CD team's "opinion" was "However, we will take this into consideration moving forward". No final decision was made public until you posted the signups.

I correct your interpretation, the opinion was that "...seems hardly enough of a victory to change an existing rule."
"However, we will take this into consideration moving forward" Is a statement that turned out to be truthful.

I fully believe you guys intentionally kept the final decision private and did not ask the CAT reps for further thought as you guys simply hate discussion and involvement from the community.

That must be why we are the CD's that decided to make CAT(formally CDF) discussions publicly viewable by all as opposed to behind closed doors, as it always was before.

And that has been the only positive thing you guys have done in a year+

Since then basically everything you guys do is lazy and/or killing discussion/events.

[Jdsizzleslice]

And that has been the only positive thing you guys have done in a year+

Since then basically everything you guys do is lazy and/or killing discussion/events.

• What events did we kill? I specifically sent you a PM about trying to run a clan event with me, which you declined. The CD team also started the CWC. To be fair to you, we should have done a better job of communicating that tournament, and we will own that mistake. But we did not kill CC or CL, those tournaments are still being ran!
  
• What discussions have we killed? You are free to post clan related topics in the clan forum, and CAT members can make whatever posts/polls they so desire in CAT. This has been communicated to you several times: that we welcome discussion and enjoy an exchange of ideas, as long as they are posted within the proper place.
  
• How have we been lazy? We just added a 5th CD. Also, for the majority of the summer we really only had 3 CDs because TeeGee had a lot of family issues to attend to. And trust me, CC takes a back seat when you have the kind of stuff going on like he did.

Cayman, we want to listen to what you have to say. I know you don't believe that, but we do. But it makes it hard when you throw around blanket statements. I really am interested in the specifics of your previous posts, and if you can provide specific examples of how we killed discussion, killed events, and are lazy. If you have a legitimate argument to make, we will definitely listen and try to understand your position.

[Caymanmew]

• What events did we kill? I specifically sent you a PM about trying to run a clan event with me, which you declined. The CD team also started the CWC. To be fair to you, we should have done a better job of communicating that tournament, and we will own that mistake. But we did not kill CC or CL, those tournaments are still being ran!

Ok, I must admit, I misspoke here. You guys did not kill any events. That being said you attempted to kill both CL and CC but ultimately failed. If not for the forcefulness of the community and both Keefie and TeeGee putting themselves in the line of fire we would not have CL today. Let's not kid ourselves here, you lot did not want to run it and you sure as hell didn't want Keefie to. When TeeGee gave Keefie permission and he posted his signups you guys were forced into either letting him run it or running it yourselves.

At that point, CC just made/makes more sense then CWC.

As for your Clan tournament... that is completely not valid in this discussion. Although I don't have the PM for proof, I do remember you specifically saying it would not be a CD run event and it was just your thing. No idea why you didn't run it anyways. Most events are basically solo run and the assistant is only there in case. Unless you were planning to have me do all the grunt work?

What discussions have we killed? You are free to post clan related topics in the clan forum, and CAT members can make whatever posts/polls they so desire in CAT. This has been communicated to you several times: that we welcome discussion and enjoy an exchange of ideas, as long as they are posted within the proper place.

You guys have a tendency to lock threads when you're questioned. The CWC CAT thread is an example. It was actually moved first then brought back locked. All because people were asking too many questions. Another example is the recent CC10 signups, yes the trench discussion might not been appropriate there... but dude, you locked a signup thread, therefore preventing signups. You guys could have easily moved shit and gave a final warning without locking it.

An example of killing discussion could also be the whole trench issue. Clearly more discussion was needed then what happened early in the year. That much is very much evident by the reaction over the past few weeks. The discussion was cut off by the CD's saying that the poll would be considered. When you guys decided against siding with either side (100% or 50%) you should have reopened the discussion. Letting people know a compromise was being made and trying to get a feel for what leaders would find acceptable on both sides. Staying silent and private about important decisions like that is the opposite of encouraging discussion and community involvement.

Overall the CD's aggressive attitude towards discussion and the continued feelings of hopelessness in positive change coming from discussion has likely lead to a lot of people to stop trying, I might be joining that group soon, which I sure you guys will appreciate.

How have we been lazy? We just added a 5th CD. Also, for the majority of the summer we really only had 3 CDs because TeeGee had a lot of family issues to attend to. And trust me, CC takes a back seat when you have the kind of stuff going on like he did.

Well, you have not been lazy JD, your very much on top of things and often times say and do the opposite of the other CD's. But for example, look at war privileges. We have had wars this year delayed due to long wait times on privileges. Just recently Lindax gave BOB and AFOS shit for being slow to start their war while they were waiting for privileges. Additionally, ICON and LOTZ had a fair bit of drama started when their war was delayed after a long wait for privileges.

Also... trying to combine CL and CC into a single event for no apparent reason is pure fucking laziness. Add onto that CWC was full of weird rules/setting restrictions and was only going to be run if we had at least 16 clans and it seems like it might have been an attempted out of running anything. As long as the BS rules keep a few clans away you'll have less than 16 and you guys could cancel the whole thing... As lindax said, it wouldn't be worth running it with less than 16 clans signed up.

Cayman, we want to listen to what you have to say. I know you don't believe that, but we do. But it makes it hard when you throw around blanket statements. I really am interested in the specifics of your previous posts, and if you can provide specific examples of how we killed discussion, killed events, and are lazy. If you have a legitimate argument to make, we will definitely listen and try to understand your position.

I actually believe you are interested in what I say. Some of the others in the CD's... they'd much rather I shut up and not share my thoughts.

[Jdsizzleslice]

Ok, I must admit, I misspoke here. You guys did not kill any events. That being said you attempted to kill both CL and CC but ultimately failed. If not for the forcefulness of the community and both Keefie and TeeGee putting themselves in the line of fire we would not have CL today. Let's not kid ourselves here, you lot did not want to run it and you sure as hell didn't want Keefie to. When TeeGee gave Keefie permission and he posted his signups you guys were forced into either letting him run it or running it yourselves.

At that point, CC just made/makes more sense then CWC.

As for your Clan tournament... that is completely not valid in this discussion. Although I don't have the PM for proof, I do remember you specifically saying it would not be a CD run event and it was just your thing. No idea why you didn't run it anyways. Most events are basically solo run and the assistant is only there in case. Unless you were planning to have me do all the grunt work?

CL11 was going to be ran regardless of how CWC turned out. The CDs did want to run CL, because Jp and myself are co-running the tournament together as we speak. Why would we decide to have co-directors if we were both not as equally interested in running it?

To your last point, I can see what you are trying to say. My point is that myself, being a CD, have looked into several events to try to run with community help. However, none of these events garnished any real measures of support from the people I contacted, so I tabled the ideas until I either had more support or more time to run them. Every event idea that I have had I have discussed with our CD team. We want events, but we feel as if we should not necessarily always be the catalyst behind those events, and encourage members of the community to help host other tournaments. (Side note to anyone reading this, anyone can try to create a clan tournament). And no, I was not wanting you to do "grunt work."

You guys have a tendency to lock threads when you're questioned. The CWC CAT thread is an example. It was actually moved first then brought back locked. All because people were asking too many questions. Another example is the recent CC10 signups, yes the trench discussion might not been appropriate there... but dude, you locked a signup thread, therefore preventing signups. You guys could have easily moved shit and gave a final warning without locking it.

An example of killing discussion could also be the whole trench issue. Clearly more discussion was needed then what happened early in the year. That much is very much evident by the reaction over the past few weeks. The discussion was cut off by the CD's saying that the poll would be considered. When you guys decided against siding with either side (100% or 50%) you should have reopened the discussion. Letting people know a compromise was being made and trying to get a feel for what leaders would find acceptable on both sides. Staying silent and private about important decisions like that is the opposite of encouraging discussion and community involvement.

Overall the CD's aggressive attitude towards discussion and the continued feelings of hopelessness in positive change coming from discussion has likely lead to a lot of people to stop trying, I might be joining that group soon, which I sure you guys will appreciate.

To your first point, it's not about restricting dialog. The whole reason things get locked/moved and then unlocked is for the CD team to make sure we are all on the same page before proceeding forward. Then we unlock the post. If we wanted to restrict dialog we would lock every post, but we do not do that.

To your second point, that CAT post was never moved or locked. You (or anyone else in CAT) could have continued to post your ideas/concerns/etc. in there. There is no need to reopen a discussion if it was never closed in the first place, no? And honestly, who has reacted the most over the past several weeks? A very small number of people. But let's get things started off for a CC11 discussion then. Would you be willing to start a CC11 discussion about particular rules you would be in favor of changing, since you are vocal about it? I look forward to seeing your post, and letting the exchange of ideas flow.

To your third point, whenever there is a debate of some sort, I try to set the tone of the debate to be respectful and inclusive of ideas. If you want, I can look through important discussion threads and show you where I clearly state this. The CDs do want open discussion. I have echoed that for a long time. We want you to be able to talk about what you want to talk about. Why do you think we made CAT public? Because we want everyone to see what discussions are taking place.

Well, you have not been lazy JD, your very much on top of things and often times say and do the opposite of the other CD's. But for example, look at war privileges. We have had wars this year delayed due to long wait times on privileges. Just recently Lindax gave BOB and AFOS shit for being slow to start their war while they were waiting for privileges. Additionally, ICON and LOTZ had a fair bit of drama started when their war was delayed after a long wait for privileges.

Also... trying to combine CL and CC into a single event for no apparent reason is pure fucking laziness. Add onto that CWC was full of weird rules/setting restrictions and was only going to be run if we had at least 16 clans and it seems like it might have been an attempted out of running anything. As long as the BS rules keep a few clans away you'll have less than 16 and you guys could cancel the whole thing... As lindax said, it wouldn't be worth running it with less than 16 clans signed up.

To your first point, BOB and AFOS war got privs 24 hours after both parties agreed to terms. And Lindax was being half-sarcastic, half-serious. The war post was posted extremely late (fault of BOB and AFOS), and not to mention that the Second Chance Bracket had been stalled due to 1 Hive game.

ICON and LOTZ war privs were a few days late. You are correct. But that is not what started the drama. It was the two clans not being disciplined enough to not degrade each other after multiple warnings.

And yet here we are, running CC, CL, and CWC. Please keep in mind that CWC was a test tournament, and that we had a CAT post about rules and discussion about the tournament. You were free to provide feedback, and that is something we as a CD team want to get once the tournament is over.

I actually believe you are interested in what I say. Some of the others in the CD's... they'd much rather I shut up and not share my thoughts.

We want to hear your thoughts. I would just challenge you to be less abrasive when saying things like all CDs are lazy, or all CDs kill discussion/events/etc. We will be more receptive to your ideas when we are not insulted. That is human nature.

Look forward to seeing your reply,
Jd

[Caymanmew]

Honestly JD, I don't have the energy at this point to give a long reply to all your points... it is pointless and will go nowhere, I shouldn't have even bothered with the last reply.

What I will say though...

And honestly, who has reacted the most over the past several weeks? A very small number of people.

Although maybe only a small number of people have reacted, do remember that only a small number of people do basically all the work planning for clans. How many clans can afford to lose 1 person if that 1 person is their current war planner? And how many clans can the clan world afford to lose?

[Keefie]

CL11 was going to be ran regardless of how CWC turned out. The CDs did want to run CL, because Jp and myself are co-running the tournament together as we speak. Why would we decide to have co-directors if we were both not as equally interested in running it?

If true, then it's all about communication again. Lindax made it very clear in the CWC discussion thread that the CD dept would not be running CL this year, no if's and no buts. He also made it clear that if the clans wanted more then they should step up and do it themselves. That is why I stepped up to run it after being approached by a number of clans. As soon as TeeGee gave me persmission to run it, I sent a courtesy pm to Lindax informing him of my actions and to expect to see a sign up thread. He just replied 'Thank You' and then waited 48 hours before closing my version down. Then accused me of causing disarray and trying to undermine the CD team. All of that was very very avoidable.

There's a saying in business that goes along the lines of. What are the three most important things to run a successful business: Communication, Communication and more Communication.

[Lindax]

CL11 was going to be ran regardless of how CWC turned out. The CDs did want to run CL, because Jp and myself are co-running the tournament together as we speak. Why would we decide to have co-directors if we were both not as equally interested in running it?

If true, then it's all about communication again. Lindax made it very clear in the CWC discussion thread that the CD dept would not be running CL this year, no if's and no buts. He also made it clear that if the clans wanted more then they should step up and do it themselves. That is why I stepped up to run it after being approached by a number of clans. As soon as TeeGee gave me persmission to run it, I sent a courtesy pm to Lindax informing him of my actions and to expect to see a sign up thread. He just replied 'Thank You' and then waited 48 hours before closing my version down. Then accused me of causing disarray and trying to undermine the CD team. All of that was very very avoidable.

There's a saying in business that goes along the lines of. What are the three most important things to run a successful business: Communication, Communication and more Communication.

Indeed. And you knew better than most it was not TeeGee you had to communicate with when it was about a clan tournament.

Lx

[Jdsizzleslice]

Honestly JD, I don't have the energy at this point to give a long reply to all your points... it is pointless and will go nowhere, I shouldn't have even bothered with the last reply.

What I will say though...

And honestly, who has reacted the most over the past several weeks? A very small number of people.

Although maybe only a small number of people have reacted, do remember that only a small number of people do basically all the work planning for clans. How many clans can afford to lose 1 person if that 1 person is their current war planner? And how many clans can the clan world afford to lose?

Cayman. My dude. Please, please, please don't call us lazy if you don't want to respond to my detailed post!

I want to engage in conversation with you! I wanted to see your response. If I thought this conversation would go nowhere, would I have even responded in the first place? I took 30 minutes out of my work day today to respond to you and to others who may decide to read the post.

Let me challenge you, friend. If you are going to heavily criticize and scrutinize what we do, then at least be willing to discuss it when your criticisms are responded to. Does that sound fair?

Jd

[Keefie]

CL11 was going to be ran regardless of how CWC turned out. The CDs did want to run CL, because Jp and myself are co-running the tournament together as we speak. Why would we decide to have co-directors if we were both not as equally interested in running it?

If true, then it's all about communication again. Lindax made it very clear in the CWC discussion thread that the CD dept would not be running CL this year, no if's and no buts. He also made it clear that if the clans wanted more then they should step up and do it themselves. That is why I stepped up to run it after being approached by a number of clans. As soon as TeeGee gave me persmission to run it, I sent a courtesy pm to Lindax informing him of my actions and to expect to see a sign up thread. He just replied 'Thank You' and then waited 48 hours before closing my version down. Then accused me of causing disarray and trying to undermine the CD team. All of that was very very avoidable.

There's a saying in business that goes along the lines of. What are the three most important things to run a successful business: Communication, Communication and more Communication.

Indeed. And you knew better than most it was not TeeGee you had to communicate with when it was about a clan tournament.

Lx

I thought the Head CD was good enough. Apologies if I was wrong.

[Elaterate]

Sorry if my opinion doesn't matter here but thought I'd leave some thoughts

First off... what the hell is CAT? lol

on a more serious note...

we welcome discussion and enjoy an exchange of ideas, as long as they are posted within the proper place.

That is something that in general is pretty dumb about this site... if it's not posted in the proper place we won't even bother to listen to it

That's not exactly what you said but it IS what happens a lot of the times something is posted in the "wrong place" and Lindax seems to have shown how that can cause some drama especially when you (whoever) decide to take action without making an attempt to communicate with someone...

He just replied 'Thank You' and then waited 48 hours before closing my version down. Then accused me of causing disarray and trying to undermine the CD team. All of that was very very avoidable.

Sounds like something that could have easily been resolved through some PMs rather then jumping to conclusions...

And you knew better than most it was not TeeGee you had to communicate with when it was about a clan tournament.

Lx

because that seems to be wrong...

I thought the Head CD was good enough. Apologies if I was wrong.

and a final note...

Lindax made it very clear in the CWC discussion thread that the CD dept would not be running CL this year, no if's and no buts. HE also made it clear...

I was told Lindax was a female... now I'm really confused

[Jdsizzleslice]

Sorry if my opinion doesn't matter here but thought I'd leave some thoughts

First off... what the hell is CAT? lol

CAT is the Clan Advisory Team, and is located underneath the main Clans forum.

on a more serious note...

we welcome discussion and enjoy an exchange of ideas, as long as they are posted within the proper place.

That is something that in general is pretty dumb about this site... if it's not posted in the proper place we won't even bother to listen to it

That's not exactly what you said but it IS what happens a lot of the times something is posted in the "wrong place" and Lindax seems to have shown how that can cause some drama especially when you (whoever) decide to take action without making an attempt to communicate with someone...

Yes, that's not what I meant. What I am trying to say is that we always want to listen, but at the end of the day if things are placed in the right area, we will be more receptive. For example, if you want to talk about a rule change, it would be better received being discussed in CAT. But you are free to talk about it outside of CAT. CAT is where formal discussions will be held.

and a final note...

Lindax made it very clear in the CWC discussion thread that the CD dept would not be running CL this year, no if's and no buts. HE also made it clear...

I was told Lindax was a female... now I'm really confused

Sorry couldn't resist.

Jd

[Keefie]

According to Google this is what Linda x looks like

[rockfist]

My thoughts are that polls can be advisory or a firm poll to make a change. I don't think everyone who voted for a change is necessarily pissed off, some clearly are, but when I was in leadership of TOFU there were things I would be slightly for and things I was 100% for. I wouldn't get pissed off over something I was slightly for being not how I wanted it.

[Hooch]

it was 9-7, not hardly a landslide poll.

I can see it if it was 14-3

I'd say it is no mandate for great change.
9 out of 23 or 24.
if they have increased to 60% fine enough.