Powerless mafia Discussion (Split from main post)

[dakky21]

Actually I'm out if the rules don't change.

It is still dumb not allowing to claim a role in a role-less game. If it is really a game without roles, why forbid claiming a role ? why force only VT or mafia? that is the question. It makes me think someone won't be just town or just scum but might be a Power Role.

I mean in what mafia game anywhere anytime you were not allowed to claim your role..... that's just dumb. Even in a roleless game you can lie. Forbidding claiming is just stupid.

[ZaBeast]

Actually I'm out if the rules don't change.

It is still dumb not allowing to claim a role in a role-less game. If it is really a game without roles, why forbid claiming a role ? why force only VT or mafia? that is the question. It makes me think someone won't be just town or just scum but might be a Power Role.

I mean in what mafia game anywhere anytime you were not allowed to claim your role..... that's just dumb. Even in a roleless game you can lie. Forbidding claiming is just stupid.

Preemptively calling Aage a bastard mod?

[dakky21]

Actually I'm out if the rules don't change.

It is still dumb not allowing to claim a role in a role-less game. If it is really a game without roles, why forbid claiming a role ? why force only VT or mafia? that is the question. It makes me think someone won't be just town or just scum but might be a Power Role.

I mean in what mafia game anywhere anytime you were not allowed to claim your role..... that's just dumb. Even in a roleless game you can lie. Forbidding claiming is just stupid.

Preemptively calling Aage a bastard mod?

Call him however you wish, but forbidding players to claim anything except VT or SCUM is not in any mafia rules. Town will kill itself anyway, so why forbid such a thing UNLESS you will add a power role?

[dakky21]

I just don't get it - if it is powerless mafia the why the f. claiming power roles is not allowed? If by the rules there are NO power roles and someone claims a power role... then he is lying and that's a lynch. Now if mod wanted some hidden PR's then it's not Vanilla and then why do we have this conversation anyway?

There is no restriction on claiming anything in any game except this one. Scummy? There is something happening in the background and it can not work like aage thought.

I'm not playing this if I can't claim "Mr. Bean, town joker"... even if there are no power roles and I claimed a power role, what, I will be modkilled? I just don't get the policy behind the "no role claiming". It doesn't makes any sense unless the aage had some PR in mind.

and I edited the post 3th time. Game didn't start so it's allowed.

[Skoffin]

BECAUSE, you utter turnip, we have a problem with people not properly reading their role PMS and deciding there is some puzzle in there to figure out
We have a problem with people abandoning scumhunting in favour of what shade of tangerine your role is in, exact wording and other nonsense. Everyone has the SAME FUCKIN ROLE so there is literally no reason for anyone to say anything othee than townie and the fact you are arguing about it is absolutely astounding.

[dakky21]

BECAUSE, you utter turnip,

you utter turnip .. forbidding people to do something WON'T change anything and will just cause more confusion. IF everyone has the same role then why forbid anything?

[Skoffin]

Because I wrote in my games OP that flavour was just flavour and no one goddamn listened. Banning might be the only way to get people to focus.

[dakky21]

Because I wrote in my games OP that flavour was just flavour and no one goddamn listened. Banning might be the only way to get people to focus.

While I agree with your point, I don't agree with forbidding fake claims in a game in which says in it rules it is POWERLESS. It means there are no power roles. Why would anyone claim a doctor or a cop? Or being a scum godfather? Why forbid that? That rule makes people think there are power roles in the power-less game. Just allow claiming fake roles and we're good.

[Skoffin]

aage and I have had a few discussions now about how every game seems to get turned into some quest to find a 'hidden puzzle' that surely must be key to solving a game, even when no such puzzle exists. The rule was to combat this; and yet here we are, this SIGNUP has turned into a hidden puzzle wherein surely banning role claiming in a game with no power roles must mean there are power roles in the game.
Things really do not need to be this complicated. I doubt aage will actually mod kill someone for bullshit claiming, the rule is just to drive home the point that role reliance is terrible strategy and people actually need to learn to play.

[dakky21]

Skoff then the rule should have been written in that way.

"You can claim whatever you wish but you're either powerless townie or powerless scum" and that's it.

edit: mafia is a game of lying, deception and twisting truth... forbidding something is not good for either town or scum.

[aage]

It makes me think someone won't be just town or just scum but might be a Power Role.

Town will kill itself anyway, so why forbid such a thing UNLESS you will add a power role?

Now if mod wanted some hidden PR's then it's not Vanilla and then why do we have this conversation anyway?

It doesn't makes any sense unless the aage had some PR in mind.

If you think I'm lying to you about the setup, then yes, it seems like a wonderful idea if you didn't play. It puzzles me that you would even want to sign up to a game where you literally believe the mod is lying to you.

I guess this has all just been a long con:

My own theory is twofold.

The first part is that everyone including the vets were too busy looking at role names and fish theory.
"Town Kidnapper"? That can't be real. "Town Psychopath"? "Town Assassin"? C'mon now.
During the first couple of days there were even arguments about whether a certain type of fish would even make sense for a role. Problem: you're trying to win the game based on the host's competency now. I had a chat about this with Skoffin earlier this week; I suspect most of the DBD players are looking at this game like a puzzle, and the game host has given us all the clues to solve it. This is why I think very little game-related discussion happens, and it is why I think DBD games are almost exclusively won by mafia. (Someone said this was the case, correct me if I'm wrong.)

The second part is hidden information and mechanics. I mentioned this to some of you in the discord channel, the double deception (between town and scum, and between players and host) is doing some heavy lifting here.

You do not conceal role info like that from players, and I'm really not sure why it was The game would have been very different if people knew the info that had been hidden from them.

Agreed. I'm sure it's fun for the host but it makes for a bad game. We're already dealing with one level of deception here in the basic premise of the game, there is no need whatsoever to add more.

You got me, I critiqued Razorvich' game only so that I could do the exact same thing in this game. What an evil mastermind I am.

[aage]

aage and I have had a few discussions now about how every game seems to get turned into some quest to find a 'hidden puzzle' that surely must be key to solving a game, even when no such puzzle exists. The rule was to combat this; and yet here we are, this SIGNUP has turned into a hidden puzzle wherein surely banning role claiming in a game with no power roles must mean there are power roles in the game.
Things really do not need to be this complicated. I doubt aage will actually mod kill someone for bullshit claiming, the rule is just to drive home the point that role reliance is terrible strategy and people actually need to learn to play.

I will verify that we did indeed have these discussions, and I will also verify that I will absolutely abide by the rules I set up. Even joke claims get the hammer. I will be ruthless. The rule is indeed to drive home that it's a terrible strategy, but I don't believe in making rules I don't enforce.

The reason I will do this is because (a) I am trying to avoid the situation where players go "hmm maybe the mod lied to us and they actually are town doc", (b) nobody will be actually flipping town doc when I mod kill them because I'm not lying to you - shocker! I know - and (c) I'm literally saving the town the effort of lynching here.

[dakky21]

aage and I have had a few discussions now about how every game seems to get turned into some quest to find a 'hidden puzzle' that surely must be key to solving a game, even when no such puzzle exists. The rule was to combat this; and yet here we are, this SIGNUP has turned into a hidden puzzle wherein surely banning role claiming in a game with no power roles must mean there are power roles in the game.
Things really do not need to be this complicated. I doubt aage will actually mod kill someone for bullshit claiming, the rule is just to drive home the point that role reliance is terrible strategy and people actually need to learn to play.

I will verify that we did indeed have these discussions, and I will also verify that I will absolutely abide by the rules I set up. Even joke claims get the hammer. I will be ruthless. The rule is indeed to drive home that it's a terrible strategy, but I don't believe in making rules I don't enforce.

The reason I will do this is because (a) I am trying to avoid the situation where players go "hmm maybe the mod lied to us and they actually are town doc", (b) nobody will be actually flipping town doc when I mod kill them because I'm not lying to you - shocker! I know - and (c) I'm literally saving the town the effort of lynching here.

Fair enough. Just add to your rules that anyone who claims anything else than town or mafia will be modkilled. Actually, modkill is set if there is a mention of cop or a doc or any other PR.

[dgz345]

aage and I have had a few discussions now about how every game seems to get turned into some quest to find a 'hidden puzzle' that surely must be key to solving a game, even when no such puzzle exists. The rule was to combat this; and yet here we are, this SIGNUP has turned into a hidden puzzle wherein surely banning role claiming in a game with no power roles must mean there are power roles in the game.
Things really do not need to be this complicated. I doubt aage will actually mod kill someone for bullshit claiming, the rule is just to drive home the point that role reliance is terrible strategy and people actually need to learn to play.

I will verify that we did indeed have these discussions, and I will also verify that I will absolutely abide by the rules I set up. Even joke claims get the hammer. I will be ruthless. The rule is indeed to drive home that it's a terrible strategy, but I don't believe in making rules I don't enforce.

The reason I will do this is because (a) I am trying to avoid the situation where players go "hmm maybe the mod lied to us and they actually are town doc", (b) nobody will be actually flipping town doc when I mod kill them because I'm not lying to you - shocker! I know - and (c) I'm literally saving the town the effort of lynching here.

Fair enough. Just add to your rules that anyone who claims anything else than town or mafia will be modkilled. Actually, modkill is set if there is a mention of cop or a doc or any other PR.

then dakky would you allow me to claim that im not a cop?

[dakky21]

then dakky would you allow me to claim that im not a cop?

if they want it their way then any mention of any PR is a modkill. It's actually very simple. Do not mention any power role or be modkilled. In a positive or a negative way, it doesn't matter. It's just forbidden to mention power roles even if you make them up. Saying "I'm dakky, the king of idiots" = modkill. The king could be some PR, so saying that = modkill. If that set of rules in enforced, I will play but know what NOT to say.

[ZaBeast]

Is it me or does that sounds like someone who's trying to find a loophole in the phrasing of the rules?

[aage]

then dakky would you allow me to claim that im not a cop?

if they want it their way then any mention of any PR is a modkill. It's actually very simple. Do not mention any power role or be modkilled. In a positive or a negative way, it doesn't matter. It's just forbidden to mention power roles even if you make them up. Saying "I'm dakky, the king of idiots" = modkill. The king could be some PR, so saying that = modkill. If that set of rules in enforced, I will play but know what NOT to say.

Please stop being intentionally dense.

No, I will not be doing that. I already stated in the rules that you may not claim any role, only that you are town. The spirit of the rule is pretty clear, especially now that we've had this discussion at length. There are no power roles in this game, so don't claim to be a power role because you'll be wasting everyone's time.

"if they want it their way"... please. If you do continue to post in this thread with these utterly pointless accusations, "suggestions" and strawmans, I will be reporting you for trolling, because that is what you are doing. I'll add a clause to the rules specifically for you. Other than that, the rules aren't changing. Decide if you're in or out.

[dakky21]

Look aage, I don't have anything against you.

Razorvich game was full of crap and so many hidden things which were not in the rules and therefore I am trying to enforce game leaders to make them transparent as much as they can.

I don't understand why is it so hard to outline it in a clean nice way, rather than trying to avoid that. I'm not saying you're a bastard mod but you clearly don't want to give all the details in a freaking OPEN setup game. It's OPEN setup. No power roles. Yes we get it. But BUT why is claiming anything else than TOWN or SCUM forbidden? If it's forbidden then there MUST be consequences.... BUT in your (updated) rules... ONLY I will be prosecuted for claiming anything else than TOWN or SCUM while anyone else will not be.

And you say I'm trolling? You're the only troll here lol.

[blacky365]

Look aage, I don't have anything against you.

Razorvich game was full of crap and so many hidden things which were not in the rules and therefore I am trying to enforce game leaders to make them transparent as much as they can.

I don't understand why is it so hard to outline it in a clean nice way, rather than trying to avoid that. I'm not saying you're a bastard mod but you clearly don't want to give all the details in a freaking OPEN setup game. It's OPEN setup. No power roles. Yes we get it. But BUT why is claiming anything else than TOWN or SCUM forbidden? If it's forbidden then there MUST be consequences.... BUT in your (updated) rules... ONLY I will be prosecuted for claiming anything else than TOWN or SCUM while anyone else will not be.

And you say I'm trolling? You're the only troll here lol.

Why are you finding it so hard to understand?
The entire point of this game is that there are no roles. End of discussion.
No power roles, no funky mafia roles, no dodgy vt roles.

The point of this game is to get back to the basics and try to win a game through proper scum hunting.

Watching you dissect the mods comments is excruciating... you either accept the rules and play or you leave. There is no point commenting if you are not going to play!

[dakky21]

Why are you finding it so hard to understand?
The entire point of this game is that there are no roles. End of discussion.
No power roles, no funky mafia roles, no dodgy vt roles.

The point of this game is to get back to the basics and try to win a game through proper scum hunting.

Watching you dissect the mods comments is excruciating... you either accept the rules and play or you leave. There is no point commenting if you are not going to play!

Look I would really like to play a vanilla game. Actually never had a shot at one.

But I don't see why is it so hard to add a rule about claiming power roles. If there are really none, why forbid claiming? I don't see the purpose there. If there are really none, then one can claim whatever they wish, but you know there are none so one claiming is lying. Why forbid that? If it's forbidden then there must be a consequence and thats all I'm asking.

I'm just asking to either allow claiming of power roles to all or deny claiming power roles to all and make a clear rule what will happen if someone claims a power role.

[Skoffin]

Dakky, aage has already made his position clear and that is is prepared to modkill people for breaking his rule.
You are the only person who claims to not understand the rules, whereas everyone else is fully supportive of it.
You are asking the mod to make a solution to a problem that only you think exists.
By continuing on with this argument you are asserting that you believe that aage is both a terrible mod and a liar, which is a pretty high accusation. This is not a mafia game where you are attacking a person's role - you are attacking his character here.
You can either believe that aage is not the type of person who will blatantly lie to you about a setup, or don't - but we do not need to make any changes here to cater to your weird ideas. NO ONE else is having this problem so you are essentially asking for special treatment. And if you really have trouble understanding all his then I'm not sure mafia is the game for you.

[dakky21]

Skoff. You must understand one thing. And remember it. I'm drunk. I don't post sober. So if he already wrote that he will modkill people which break the rule, I obviously skimmed over it or didn't read it.

That said... I don't post while sober as I just said.

[dgz345]

At this point I would give dakky a pr

[Razorvich]

Jebus Dakky, I'm glad its not just me....an interesting read here. Let me forward my experience on these matters to the Mod hosting, this took a while to create..
I refer to it as the "Dakky Clause".. used in ALL my Events I run on the site

show: conditions of participation

[aage]

Look aage, I don't have anything against you.

Razorvich game was full of crap and so many hidden things which were not in the rules and therefore I am trying to enforce game leaders to make them transparent as much as they can.

I don't understand why is it so hard to outline it in a clean nice way, rather than trying to avoid that. I'm not saying you're a bastard mod but you clearly don't want to give all the details in a freaking OPEN setup game. It's OPEN setup. No power roles. Yes we get it. But BUT why is claiming anything else than TOWN or SCUM forbidden? If it's forbidden then there MUST be consequences.... BUT in your (updated) rules... ONLY I will be prosecuted for claiming anything else than TOWN or SCUM while anyone else will not be.

And you say I'm trolling? You're the only troll here lol.

I'm gonna outline real quick for you what the concept of "rules" means in the context of a mafia game.

It's a set of agreements we make with each other on what and what not to do during the game. Signing up for a game means you agree to abide by the rules. This is done in good spirit because I would rather not have to act like a totalitarian fucking state. We rely on each other to be acting in good faith during this game and following the rules, because it will maximize fairness and to a larger extent the enjoyment we have in the game.

The reason we don't like to play with cheaters is because, when they signed up for the game, they agreed with the rules and agreed to follow them, but then didn't. When cheaters are caught we usually try to find a way to deal with them without completely ruining the game. Usually that involves modkilling, sometimes we let people off with a warning, sometimes it results in a board wide ban from future mafia games. As you may have noticed, none of the standard rules have any consequence attached to them. This is because rulebreaking is handled differently depending on the mod and the offense, and because we as players and game mods like to assume that we all intend to abide by the rules when we play the game.

You are asking me to attach consequences to a violation of the rules I set. Why aren't you complaining about this in every thread if this is so important to you? Why is it only now important that I, specifically, set consequences to this rule, specifically? I can only guess, and I would guess that it is because you intend to break it. I am guessing this because you have said it multiple times. Your logic is that a player should be allowed to claim anything in an open setup, and the town needs to make up its own mind on whether the player is lying, or the game moderator. However, this strategy supersedes the game you are playing. You are now accusing the game mod, who is NOT a player, of being dishonest. In other words, you are trying to win by making me look bad.

Skoffin and I have been talking about players looking at the game as a 'puzzle', and approaching the game from the angle of "what would and wouldn't the mod do". I am avoiding this entirely by TELLING YOU what I would and wouldn't do, by making the setup open and clearly stating that there will be no power roles. I set rules against claiming so that people (like you) couldn't accuse me, the mod, of being a liar and putting power roles in the game anyway. This signifies an insane amount of mistrust and disdain towards the game host - the game hasn't even started yet and you are already (a) assuming that I am lying, (b) assuming that I COULD be lying, and (c) planning to convince other players that I am lying. Now you're asking me to put in the rules that I will manually take you or anyone else out of the game if they claimed a role. You're missing the entire point of game rules.


You said you would be out if the rules don't change. The rules aren't changing, so you are out. Please stop posting in this thread.