[CC8] Final: TOFU (34) vs LHDD (27) - TOFU Wins - 2/15/19

[Chariot of Fire]

I like to say "F**k you and the horse you rode in on" whilst typing "All the best!"

[loutil]

I like to say "F**k you and the horse you rode in on" whilst typing "All the best!"

I much prefer taunting...

[rockfist]

I like to wish my opponents an injury free game where the sun doesn’t get in their eyes.

[joecoolfrog]

Frog Greetings !
The first time I played Don he assumed I was French lol . ( true story )

[Donelladan]

Regarding the general discussion on luck;
Overestimating the impact of bad luck on ones losses, and skill when one wins is a great sign of weakness.

It is with increasing rarity I deem to respond to dice-whining.
In the end I saw that some people simply did not want to see rationality, nor seek the objective truth, but just sought excuses.
Thus, I shall oblige to leave the whiners to their misery and excuses.

And for those that truly have a difficult time with the role of luck in this game, may I suggest Chess?
But of course, many of said people wouldn't dream of playing a game without the comfortable cloak of luck. How else would they protect their egos from the harsh truth?

Was willing to let that rest but are you trying to troll here ?
I think people unable to recognize they had good dice and think they only win because their strategy is better are arrogant.
When I win a game and my opponent said I had lucky dice, I usually reply yes I did. And usually I did.
I have no issue aknowledging that fact.

Buy maybe you are so extraordinary that you can win with bad dice

Btw, complain about dice is not against TOFU, neither against TOFU skill, it's just about luck, and as you actually said it in your last sentence, there is luck in involved in this game.
It's a bit like complaining about the rain today, it's not like complaining will change anything, but it's still annoying to be soaked when you go home.
Oh, and in case you didn't know, french people like to complain.

[Extreme Ways]

Regarding the general discussion on luck;
Overestimating the impact of bad luck on ones losses, and skill when one wins is a great sign of weakness.

It is with increasing rarity I deem to respond to dice-whining.
In the end I saw that some people simply did not want to see rationality, nor seek the objective truth, but just sought excuses.
Thus, I shall oblige to leave the whiners to their misery and excuses.

And for those that truly have a difficult time with the role of luck in this game, may I suggest Chess?
But of course, many of said people wouldn't dream of playing a game without the comfortable cloak of luck. How else would they protect their egos from the harsh truth?

Was willing to let that rest but are you trying to troll here ?
I think people unable to recognize they had good dice and think they only win because their strategy is better are arrogant.
When I win a game and my opponent said I had lucky dice, I usually reply yes I did. And usually I did.
I have no issue aknowledging that fact.

Buy maybe you are so extraordinary that you can win with bad dice

Btw, complain about dice is not against TOFU, neither against TOFU skill, it's just about luck, and as you actually said it in your last sentence, there is luck in involved in this game.
It's a bit like complaining about the rain today, it's not like complaining will change anything, but it's still annoying to be soaked when you go home.
Oh, and in case you didn't know, french people like to complain.

I dont think Arama is trying to troll, just didnt succeed in conveying his message. Numerous people on our forums complain about dice too (note: I mean in general, before I trigger certain people). I think what he means that it's easy to spot or argue a misplay by others, and difficult to see when you made mistakes yourself. As a general principle, not just for game X or game Y.

As for my own games, there are some that have been very luck-reliant. Malta doubles was decided in 2 rounds, 3KoC doubles was "lets hope we reach a late enough stage that nuclear cards matter" after the first 2 rounds. In Rockies USA I think we made better plays, but this is easy to say when oppo almost dicefails on 2x2 with stack of 10+. In Rail EU I rolled a saving 6v8 to stay equal, F2.1 is most likely over before round 2... etc.

I think both clans are strong regardless though. TOFU battled FOED 26-23 and S&M 31-24 to get here, whereas LHDD beat LOTZ 42-1(!), FALL 28-21 and OSA 34-21. Both are nothing to scoff at.

[betiko]

Betiko
Mate I know the CC final frays ones nerves but you are making some absurd statements , in the cold light of day you may well be embarassed by what you wrote.
Quite simply not every player is of an equal standard on certain settings , for example im certain that several of your Clan members would consistently thrash me at trench.
Anybody who has played on this site for any length of time recognises that games are won by a combination of good dice and skill , only the percentages of each change ,largely influenced by other factors ( drop , settings , skill differentials etc).
Now we all get runs of extremely unlucky dice , most of us curse loudly ( and kick the dog/cat , beat the wife , shout at the computer ) but the wise man keeps this abuse private.
Those who repeatedly whine publicly simply look like fools , come across as unsporting and create bad blood , its pretty silly.
Lets face it when we wish our opponents good luck we dont mean it , in truth we hope their dice stink , but we do it to be polite and create a pleasant environment.
Good Luck in your future games....ribbit

humm sorry but let me disagree there... I'd rather rant on an internet forum about an online game with the people I'm playing that online game with; rather than taking it outside with family and pets... I'm sorry to say they are more important to me!
And to tell the truth... if you saw our whatsapp discussions I'm the one making fun of every guy that comes up with a bad dice story... they kind of feed me cause they know I'll come and complain here.

You know... the only way you can find incredible a quads escalating finish; it’s because of incredible luck (once again). We are all big boys and we all know how to play escalating team games in defense and offense when rounds matter here.. it’s a final not a round 1.

I cant look too much into the past just by looking at the log (and what I heard from others), but it seems that on the turn before the sweep, cyan neglected the possibility of a 3-card into sweep and forted his stack rather than going for an 9v3,1,2 to eliminate the possibility in its entirety (by removing blue next to green). Now I'm not saying those are sure-win chances... but as long as you get the 9v3,1 you had a defensive stack to "guard" green. That being said, I'm not a great escalating player and this is all in hindsight.

let's face it... I have absolutely no idea what was going on on this game that I never opened, I just know we deserved to win it because we are better.

>betiko. I hope you are right about the dice. CC owes me big time for Lunar Wars, Three Kingdoms, Battle for Iraq and Forbidden City where my teams simply never got a look in. I don't recall complaining though

We kicked your ass on lunar wars. I assume the other ones were won in spite of having bad luck.

Well done frog, Well done mate!
It's moments like that, that make this game worth playing.
-That make all the time we spend here worth it.

Regarding the general discussion on luck;
Overestimating the impact of bad luck on ones losses, and skill when one wins is a great sign of weakness.

It is with increasing rarity I deem to respond to dice-whining.
In the end I saw that some people simply did not want to see rationality, nor seek the objective truth, but just sought excuses.
Thus, I shall oblige to leave the whiners to their misery and excuses.

And for those that truly have a difficult time with the role of luck in this game, may I suggest Chess?
But of course, many of said people wouldn't dream of playing a game without the comfortable cloak of luck. How else would they protect their egos from the harsh truth?

being a mediocre player sticking with a bunch of top notch players for years is a sign of strength though?

Lets face it when we wish our opponents good luck we dont mean it , in truth we hope their dice stink , but we do it to be polite and create a pleasant environment.

This is why I always say "have fun".

I like to say "I wish you just enough luck to make this a close fight, but not enough for you to win!"

I'm pretty sure wishing good luck to someone is the guarantee of bad luck in most cultures. At least in france, you never wish luck to someone when you actually wish luck.

[iAmCaffeine]

Oh, and in case you didn't know, french people like to complain.

Today I learned, I am French.

[rockfist]

Look I admitted earlier that I’m not smart enough to come up with a winning strategy against 4-19 rolls. Anyone who is has me beat to hell.

[trapyoung]

We kicked your ass on lunar wars. I assume the other ones were won in spite of having bad luck.

Lunar Wars was a beatdown. But that's because I'm a lovable scamp and thought it'd be interesting to roll 0-6 on my first turn and follow that up with 4-19 two rounds later. Last time I'll do that for you though if you're just going to throw it back in my face.

[loutil]

It is my opinion that both teams are fielding strong players. Often, when strong players meet on the battlefield, luck plays a factor in who wins. I have had games this war where the dice were favorable and we won. I have also had games where my dice sucked or your were rocking, where we lost. Very few games turn into strategic slug fests.
Some examples in our second set:
France 2.1: killer drop and opening roll for you. Almost over after just 2 turns. Advantage LHDD
Age of Merchants: very strong opening roll for you. Advantage LHDD
Stalingrad: good opening roll for us followed by a bad roll by you. Advantage TOFU
WWII Australia: one of the strangest drops I have ever seen. No clue at this point who it gives the advantage to. But, it will play a BIG role in who wins.

[MTIceman41]

California has better wine then France...
I lift more weight then Rock cuz he’s got little chicken legs...
Let’s get back on track of hating S&M people. Or MT

[rockfist]

No one in TOFU calls you MT. Your name is Vanilla.

Calf muscles are utterly useless. Today you lifted more than I did since I was doing ten second negatives.

[MTIceman41]

No one in TOFU calls you MT. Your name is Vanilla.

Calf muscles are utterly useless. Today you lifted more than I did since I was doing ten second negatives.

I prefer Captain Olive Oil lol
Vanilla is good ha

All about the glutes bro.

[loutil]

California has better wine then France...
I lift more weight then Rock cuz he’s got little chicken legs...
Let’s get back on track of hating S&M people. Or MT

If you are willing to use Wilks with the McCulloch age adjustment. I will lift more than either of you 2 .

[Donelladan]

Oh, and in case you didn't know, french people like to complain.

Today I learned, I am French.

Always knew I liked you but didnt know why.
Once you improved at our mothertongue, you have a reserved spot at LHDD.

[Extreme Ways]

Betiko
Mate I know the CC final frays ones nerves but you are making some absurd statements , in the cold light of day you may well be embarassed by what you wrote.
Quite simply not every player is of an equal standard on certain settings , for example im certain that several of your Clan members would consistently thrash me at trench.
Anybody who has played on this site for any length of time recognises that games are won by a combination of good dice and skill , only the percentages of each change ,largely influenced by other factors ( drop , settings , skill differentials etc).
Now we all get runs of extremely unlucky dice , most of us curse loudly ( and kick the dog/cat , beat the wife , shout at the computer ) but the wise man keeps this abuse private.
Those who repeatedly whine publicly simply look like fools , come across as unsporting and create bad blood , its pretty silly.
Lets face it when we wish our opponents good luck we dont mean it , in truth we hope their dice stink , but we do it to be polite and create a pleasant environment.
Good Luck in your future games....ribbit

humm sorry but let me disagree there... I'd rather rant on an internet forum about an online game with the people I'm playing that online game with; rather than taking it outside with family and pets... I'm sorry to say they are more important to me!

I dont think you understand what frog is saying mate.

[betiko]

I really don’t care what it looks like when I rant about dice and there is an objective reason to it. It’s not about overall dice in a game, it’s about THE diceroll. Each game has that moment... a dice roll that will give you or will take from you the victory, mostly in escalating and in trench.
I find people who can’t recognize that when dice mattered the luck was on their side an embarassement. I am well aware of my good or bad dice; good or bad drop; good or bad turn order etc and the one of my oponent. I have nothing but compassion when a good opponent is really unlucky and starts cursing (with a little evil smile I’ll admit) and I do hate when people rant about dice and bad luck when they are just playing terribly and/or they aren’t acknowledging that mine are just as bad or worse in a particular game.
The score being 12-4 you can understand that it’s quite shameful for us and that out of these 12 wins we had significantly less luck than you guys when it mattered.
Had you been facing any crap clan with luck against you guys, the score could be 12-4 too.
The problem here is that no one is in every game, and we ALL have bad dice on certain turns and we think it’s offensive to hear about the luck factor.
Well it’s quite simple... you just look at the finished games and you count what was determined by a huge fail or huge success. Let’s say anything below 33% that you succeed and above 66% that you fail. When things are roughly even no big deal, but when it largely favours a team... what’s the problem to talk about it?
Things are now reshuffled with batch 2...

And see for example lootil gave a picture of the games he’s in and it’s all very objective and accurate. Talking about luck can be very objective when you talk to objective people.

[rockfist]

No. Just no. We might be down 12-4 against a very good clan if luck was against us, although I don’t think we’ve been behind 4-12 in a war, but a crap clan could not beat us 12-4 with any amount of luck.

[rockfist]

California has better wine then France...
I lift more weight then Rock cuz he’s got little chicken legs...
Let’s get back on track of hating S&M people. Or MT

If you are willing to use Wilks with the McCulloch age adjustment. I will lift more than either of you 2 .

How long after weigh in would we lift?

[loutil]

California has better wine then France...
I lift more weight then Rock cuz he’s got little chicken legs...
Let’s get back on track of hating S&M people. Or MT

If you are willing to use Wilks with the McCulloch age adjustment. I will lift more than either of you 2 .

How long after weigh in would we lift?

5 minutes...no water cutting and then super saturation allowed .

[rockfist]

I can't lift for shit lately. I'm "off" my game.

[.SCuD.]

I can't help myself, because it's maths... and I absolutely bloody love maths. I have to weigh in with a short (and crude) mathematical analysis of why people often think they are losing due to luck, where it is actually skill.

Before I start, this is meant more generally, and not specifically about this match... although I do then mention some bits about this match later! I've seen some of the highest standard of play that I've witnessed, and you've forced me "into the tank" to strategise on numerous occasions. (Fractured China in particular, and also with Vertex at the moment, legendary stuff!). I also hope that we'll be allowed to pick more trench games in the future, as it's clearly your forte, and you deserve that.

On to the crude mathsy bit.
Games are often very simple strategically, and you win or lose on the dice (against moderately good opposition, who don't play super advanced, but don't do those bizarre balls ups we all see). You'll lose 25% of the time because of the dice, and win 25% for the same reason.

What can make a player really great, as much as knowing how to generally play good strategy, is knowing how to play for a bit of luck that will turn a sure fire loss, in to a 15% chance of a win.
Earlier in this war, we were in a position that most teams lose 99% of the time, but we found a way to give ourselves a bizarre 35% chance of turning the game on it's head... now we failed, and the game is lost, but over the course of a war if you can turn every guaranteed loss in to a 35% chance of nicking it, that's a big difference, but it looks lucky when it comes off! What matters is that we found the way, where most people just "play solid" and never find that 35% shot. Would we have left you that same gap? I don't think so, but we are all prone to mistakes on occasion.

Great players "get lucky" more than good players, because when a great player gets lucky, you feel like you've been hit by a sledgehammer. Somehow you've lost what you thought was a guaranteed win... and it hurts. A good player in that same spot with as much dice luck, would only have delayed the inevitable loss.

So the great player vs the good player, both win 25% on dice, lose 25% on dice... but of the remaining 50%, the great win 30% based on solid strategy, and win another 5-10% by knowing how and when to throw the dice to take advantage of luck... and they end up with 60-65% victory against very good opponents.
The good player looks at it and THINKS that it should have been a tie. They don't notice the great player outsmarting them to take 30% through normal strategy, and they put the remaining 5-10% losses down to pure luck... well was it luck? In reality it was the ability of the great player to manipulate the odds in their favour that created that luck to pull off significantly more bizarre comebacks. The good player took no wins off the great player in the same way, because they didn't know how to.

I haven't been involved in every game, but in the games I've been involved in your standard of play has been excellent, but there are just a couple of places where i believe you should have sewn up the game, but left gaps that we could take advantage of. Yes we needed the 20%/30% rolls to turn the games on their head, but you didn't need to give us that chance. I don't know if we've won or lost more than our fair share, but I do think that is what has been the difference... I could be wrong.
Again, this is just games I've been involved in.

Just as a compliment. Our game in Fractured China... I have to say it's been the highest standard game I've been involved in across any setting / format, you name it, it has topped them all. Your team were a cut above the other trench teams I've faced, and I've been consistently surprised by your ability to pick out what actually is the best move, it's so rare I think that! It's been a strange relationship between dice and strategy, with both teams manipulating the odds adroitly. I still think that one minor mistake has been made on each side... though I won't go in to details!

Anyway, is our lead purely down to luck? Os is it what I've said above, where the manipulation and creation of probabilistic opportunity makes it look lucky?

I think it's the second. FNNA is the perfect example. If it had been the other way around, I don't believe we ever lose that game. You dice mullered us from start to finish, and a moment of complacency gave us the opening to roll well for a round. You should never have let us in.

You still have a chance guys, we don't have an insurmountable advantage.

Good luck

[betiko]

No. Just no. We might be down 12-4 against a very good clan if luck was against us, although I don’t think we’ve been behind 4-12 in a war, but a crap clan could not beat us 12-4 with any amount of luck.

that's not at all what I said.. I said that you're beating us 12-4, and that could be the score you have against any below average clans if they are getting lucky... but you winning 12-4 not you losing obviously, didn't think it had to be specified.

[betiko]

I can't help myself, because it's maths... and I absolutely bloody love maths. I have to weigh in with a short (and crude) mathematical analysis of why people often think they are losing due to luck, where it is actually skill.

Before I start, this is meant more generally, and not specifically about this match... although I do then mention some bits about this match later! I've seen some of the highest standard of play that I've witnessed, and you've forced me "into the tank" to strategise on numerous occasions. (Fractured China in particular, and also with Vertex at the moment, legendary stuff!). I also hope that we'll be allowed to pick more trench games in the future, as it's clearly your forte, and you deserve that.

On to the crude mathsy bit.
Games are often very simple strategically, and you win or lose on the dice (against moderately good opposition, who don't play super advanced, but don't do those bizarre balls ups we all see). You'll lose 25% of the time because of the dice, and win 25% for the same reason.

What can make a player really great, as much as knowing how to generally play good strategy, is knowing how to play for a bit of luck that will turn a sure fire loss, in to a 15% chance of a win.
Earlier in this war, we were in a position that most teams lose 99% of the time, but we found a way to give ourselves a bizarre 35% chance of turning the game on it's head... now we failed, and the game is lost, but over the course of a war if you can turn every guaranteed loss in to a 35% chance of nicking it, that's a big difference, but it looks lucky when it comes off! What matters is that we found the way, where most people just "play solid" and never find that 35% shot. Would we have left you that same gap? I don't think so, but we are all prone to mistakes on occasion.

Great players "get lucky" more than good players, because when a great player gets lucky, you feel like you've been hit by a sledgehammer. Somehow you've lost what you thought was a guaranteed win... and it hurts. A good player in that same spot with as much dice luck, would only have delayed the inevitable loss.

So the great player vs the good player, both win 25% on dice, lose 25% on dice... but of the remaining 50%, the great win 30% based on solid strategy, and win another 5-10% by knowing how and when to throw the dice to take advantage of luck... and they end up with 60-65% victory against very good opponents.
The good player looks at it and THINKS that it should have been a tie. They don't notice the great player outsmarting them to take 30% through normal strategy, and they put the remaining 5-10% losses down to pure luck... well was it luck? In reality it was the ability of the great player to manipulate the odds in their favour that created that luck to pull off significantly more bizarre comebacks. The good player took no wins off the great player in the same way, because they didn't know how to.

I haven't been involved in every game, but in the games I've been involved in your standard of play has been excellent, but there are just a couple of places where i believe you should have sewn up the game, but left gaps that we could take advantage of. Yes we needed the 20%/30% rolls to turn the games on their head, but you didn't need to give us that chance. I don't know if we've won or lost more than our fair share, but I do think that is what has been the difference... I could be wrong.
Again, this is just games I've been involved in.

Just as a compliment. Our game in Fractured China... I have to say it's been the highest standard game I've been involved in across any setting / format, you name it, it has topped them all. Your team were a cut above the other trench teams I've faced, and I've been consistently surprised by your ability to pick out what actually is the best move, it's so rare I think that! It's been a strange relationship between dice and strategy, with both teams manipulating the odds adroitly. I still think that one minor mistake has been made on each side... though I won't go in to details!

Anyway, is our lead purely down to luck? Os is it what I've said above, where the manipulation and creation of probabilistic opportunity makes it look lucky?

I think it's the second. FNNA is the perfect example. If it had been the other way around, I don't believe we ever lose that game. You dice mullered us from start to finish, and a moment of complacency gave us the opening to roll well for a round. You should never have let us in.

You still have a chance guys, we don't have an insurmountable advantage.

Good luck

dude, just saying but your experience on this site is close to zero with just 400 something games under the belt... I'm not saying your are not good nor potentially great, just that you haven't seen a lot with just 400 games. I've been a member of tofu, I've been a member of other clans, I've played with your teammates, I've played with and against all sorts of top players and top players on certain settings from this site, most of the old guard from LHDD has and this is not our first rodeo. You sound like a young girl experiencing sex for the first time with her boyfriend explaining to a dirty old hooker how to plug a finger in the ass.
I get you're learning a lot and all that from your first experiences, you'll need to ride a lotamiladick to teach us something there, skippy