Discussion: Recruiting, etc.

[MagnusGreeol]

Take the specialists out of any given map against a crap clan like ours and see how well the rest do without being spoon fed each and every move when they have to think for themselves.

I disagree with this. I have only been in one clan. Well KoRT, then S&M, but it's the same team. They only accepted players who were really good, or players who had the potential to become really good by learning from others. It's not about hogging talent either as another person suggested above, but nurturing talent and helping players become the best they can be. That's what test games are for. Players need to demonstrate that they can successfully lead a team (not necessarily win, just be a good communicator). UNLESS we know their play style already. All of the top clans test their players in this way.

In all team games, there has to be a leader, always. The leader is the one that comes up with the main strategy for that game, the rest contribute their thoughts if they think they see something better, or preferrably leave notes in chat for what they think their next move should be and see if others agree, not just dive in and take the turn. Without a leader and a single strategy, everyone's going to have different ideas of how the game is going to play out. Generally, the leader ends up being the person with the most experience on a particular map. That's only natural. It doesn't mean that the rest are idiots.

Not every player is going to be as good as say... Josko, but... the majority of them are better than average. You get a team like that where everyone is focused and on their A-game (even without their top player or three), they'd be hard to beat...ever. That doesn't always happen for a myriad of reasons, but to say that there are only a few skilled players in each team, and everyone else is low tier, couldn't be further from the truth.

_____

Oh and as for people complaining about teams with 40+ members. You take out all the people who are on a break etc, those teams probably only have half those numbers. A cap wouldn't make a difference to them, honestly. All you'd be doing is asking them to drop those players out until such time as they return. I am currently on a break from competitive play for health reasons, but still in S&M.

Think about it. If a team really had 40-50 active players, it wouldn't be much fun. No one would get enough games, especially since the top clans generally only play in the big competitions. It would make sense for people to leave and join a clan with less players or splinter into a smaller clan. Nope, we actually don't have that amount of active players on the roster. They are just part of our conquerclub family, even if they aren't all currently playing.

It's desperation from clans imo. It's not fair to blame clans with bigger numbers. Why not just recruit more people who don't currently play in clans. There are still thousands of players on the site each month. I was someone who would never have considered clans and was invited to try out by three different clans at the time. I chose KoRT. People were really competitive about getting people into their clans and went looking for them. I would have left CC ages ago if it wasn't for the clan family. I am still hanging around BECAUSE of them, because I do want to return to competitive play when I can. My point is that recruiting unknown players out there into the clan world and training them keeps them around and makes things more active.

"This girl is on fire!" '')> +1

[Extreme Ways]

Take the specialists out of any given map against a crap clan like ours and see how well the rest do without being spoon fed each and every move when they have to think for themselves.

I disagree with this. I have only been in one clan. Well KoRT, then S&M, but it's the same team. They only accepted players who were really good, or players who had the potential to become really good by learning from others. It's not about hogging talent either as another person suggested above, but nurturing talent and helping players become the best they can be. That's what test games are for. Players need to demonstrate that they can successfully lead a team (not necessarily win, just be a good communicator). UNLESS we know their play style already. All of the top clans test their players in this way.

In all team games, there has to be a leader, always. The leader is the one that comes up with the main strategy for that game, the rest contribute their thoughts if they think they see something better, or preferrably leave notes in chat for what they think their next move should be and see if others agree, not just dive in and take the turn. Without a leader and a single strategy, everyone's going to have different ideas of how the game is going to play out. Generally, the leader ends up being the person with the most experience on a particular map. That's only natural. It doesn't mean that the rest are idiots.

Not every player is going to be as good as say... Josko, but... the majority of them are better than average. You get a team like that where everyone is focused and on their A-game (even without their top player or three), they'd be hard to beat...ever. That doesn't always happen for a myriad of reasons, but to say that there are only a few skilled players in each team, and everyone else is low tier, couldn't be further from the truth.

_____

Oh and as for people complaining about teams with 40+ members. You take out all the people who are on a break etc, those teams probably only have half those numbers. A cap wouldn't make a difference to them, honestly. All you'd be doing is asking them to drop those players out until such time as they return. I am currently on a break from competitive play for health reasons, but still in S&M.

Think about it. If a team really had 40-50 active players, it wouldn't be much fun. No one would get enough games, especially since the top clans generally only play in the big competitions. It would make sense for people to leave and join a clan with less players or splinter into a smaller clan. Nope, we actually don't have that amount of active players on the roster. They are just part of our conquerclub family, even if they aren't all currently playing.

It's desperation from clans imo. It's not fair to blame clans with bigger numbers. Why not just recruit more people who don't currently play in clans. There are still thousands of players on the site each month. I was someone who would never have considered clans and was invited to try out by three different clans at the time. I chose KoRT. People were really competitive about getting people into their clans and went looking for them. I would have left CC ages ago if it wasn't for the clan family. I am still hanging around BECAUSE of them, because I do want to return to competitive play when I can. My point is that recruiting unknown players out there into the clan world and training them keeps them around and makes things more active.

Good post. The only thing I disagree with is in bold. imo not all games require a leader. Especially in awaygames where there isnt a single someone with the most experience, I rather prefer having 3 people talk just as loud each turn and then the turn-taker has the final say, it's not that difficult to have no real leader but to still have a singular game plan, especially when all players talk before the first turn is played,

[betiko]

Take the specialists out of any given map against a crap clan like ours and see how well the rest do without being spoon fed each and every move when they have to think for themselves.

I disagree with this. I have only been in one clan. Well KoRT, then S&M, but it's the same team. They only accepted players who were really good, or players who had the potential to become really good by learning from others. It's not about hogging talent either as another person suggested above, but nurturing talent and helping players become the best they can be. That's what test games are for. Players need to demonstrate that they can successfully lead a team (not necessarily win, just be a good communicator). UNLESS we know their play style already. All of the top clans test their players in this way.

In all team games, there has to be a leader, always. The leader is the one that comes up with the main strategy for that game, the rest contribute their thoughts if they think they see something better, or preferrably leave notes in chat for what they think their next move should be and see if others agree, not just dive in and take the turn. Without a leader and a single strategy, everyone's going to have different ideas of how the game is going to play out. Generally, the leader ends up being the person with the most experience on a particular map. That's only natural. It doesn't mean that the rest are idiots.

Not every player is going to be as good as say... Josko, but... the majority of them are better than average. You get a team like that where everyone is focused and on their A-game (even without their top player or three), they'd be hard to beat...ever. That doesn't always happen for a myriad of reasons, but to say that there are only a few skilled players in each team, and everyone else is low tier, couldn't be further from the truth.

_____

Oh and as for people complaining about teams with 40+ members. You take out all the people who are on a break etc, those teams probably only have half those numbers. A cap wouldn't make a difference to them, honestly. All you'd be doing is asking them to drop those players out until such time as they return. I am currently on a break from competitive play for health reasons, but still in S&M.

Think about it. If a team really had 40-50 active players, it wouldn't be much fun. No one would get enough games, especially since the top clans generally only play in the big competitions. It would make sense for people to leave and join a clan with less players or splinter into a smaller clan. Nope, we actually don't have that amount of active players on the roster. They are just part of our conquerclub family, even if they aren't all currently playing.

It's desperation from clans imo. It's not fair to blame clans with bigger numbers. Why not just recruit more people who don't currently play in clans. There are still thousands of players on the site each month. I was someone who would never have considered clans and was invited to try out by three different clans at the time. I chose KoRT. People were really competitive about getting people into their clans and went looking for them. I would have left CC ages ago if it wasn't for the clan family. I am still hanging around BECAUSE of them, because I do want to return to competitive play when I can. My point is that recruiting unknown players out there into the clan world and training them keeps them around and makes things more active.

Good post. The only thing I disagree with is in bold. imo not all games require a leader. Especially in awaygames where there isnt a single someone with the most experience, I rather prefer having 3 people talk just as loud each turn and then the turn-taker has the final say, it's not that difficult to have no real leader but to still have a singular game plan, especially when all players talk before the first turn is played,

I agree with EW here. teams where you have 1 great strategist and just people following without questionning anything are not great team...
If you know a lot about a map/setting, and nobody in your team is there to challenge your ideas well your team sucks. Teamates need to think outside the box and at the end of the day it's what convinces the majority of the team. And if the turn taker goes against what the majority of the team decided, I'm sorry but I won't play with that dude again.
A team is about having several brains working differently; if only 1 guy takes the decisions well just go play polymorph. What's the use of being a sheep teammate too? Even if you're a noob, you should word what you would have done and discuss it. Probably no time for that shit if it's an important war, so the noob has nothing to do in that game... but if you're a noob and you just follow without questionning you are not goingto improve fast... If you are a veteran and you never question your "game leader" you are absolutely worthless.

[iAmCaffeine]

I'm pretty sure Shannon made those comments in agreement with what you're saying. Say for example I'm playing with a team on Operation Drug War. I will have the most experience on that map by a long way and will giving the team direction with what our plan is and certain moves. I would definitely be looked to as the leader, but other players on my team would certainly suggest moves they've seen themselves and/or question my own suggestion if they think I'm wrong or simply see an alternative. That's a given in top clans and teams.

[Vid_FISO]

Considering today's posts, well, the stats don't seem to bear out the arguments, for the most part (but not always) wars between the top clans are effectively 6-8 vs 6-8 with the rest of the clan getting bits. If 2/3 of those taking the heaviest game load go down then so does the clan regardless of whether there are several with 80%+ from their handful of games.

Mid-lower ranked clans relying heavily on a handful do seem to get stuffed when those most relied on get hammered.

No question that there are some shit hot players involved in clan games that have tactical nous on a multitude of maps, if your clan doesn't have at least 3 or 4 of them then you're never going to compete midranks, let alone at the top, it really might as well be 8v8, those making up the numbers rarely make a difference to the result.

As a matter of interest, ignoring what any of you might think of me as a person, who would be interested in me based on my team stats alone? I don't really have any specialist maps, I have helped developed a good number of those that we regularly use (for better or worse) and have stepped aside for others to play them, but can always fill in when needed. Of course I won't move, when FIASCO eventually dies then I walk away from CC (assuming that I haven't died already), I enjoy the team play (would enjoy it more if there weren't so many missed moves and those ignoring chat to do their own thing), there's not many left of the group that arrived 7 years ago to form the FISO clan.

[Vid_FISO]

That's a given in top clans and teams.

You've only been there 5 minutes, they should question everything you say!

[rockfist]

Considering today's posts, well, the stats don't seem to bear out the arguments, for the most part (but not always) wars between the top clans are effectively 6-8 vs 6-8 with the rest of the clan getting bits. If 2/3 of those taking the heaviest game load go down then so does the clan regardless of whether there are several with 80%+ from their handful of games.

Mid-lower ranked clans relying heavily on a handful do seem to get stuffed when those most relied on get hammered.

No question that there are some shit hot players involved in clan games that have tactical nous on a multitude of maps, if your clan doesn't have at least 3 or 4 of them then you're never going to compete midranks, let alone at the top, it really might as well be 8v8, those making up the numbers rarely make a difference to the result.

As a matter of interest, ignoring what any of you might think of me as a person, who would be interested in me based on my team stats alone? I don't really have any specialist maps, I have helped developed a good number of those that we regularly use (for better or worse) and have stepped aside for others to play them, but can always fill in when needed. Of course I won't move, when FIASCO eventually dies then I walk away from CC (assuming that I haven't died already), I enjoy the team play (would enjoy it more if there weren't so many missed moves and those ignoring chat to do their own thing), there's not many left of the group that arrived 7 years ago to form the FISO clan.

Any all around player is very valuable. All arounds provide the glue that allows the map specialists to shine in clan wars. If your all arounds perform well it keeps you competitive in a war. Winning and losing is then determined by how map specialists perform. I suppose if your all arounds get crushed, you lose, but I haven't seen our all arounds get crushed.

[Shannon Apple]

I'm pretty sure Shannon made those comments in agreement with what you're saying. Say for example I'm playing with a team on Operation Drug War. I will have the most experience on that map by a long way and will giving the team direction with what our plan is and certain moves. I would definitely be looked to as the leader, but other players on my team would certainly suggest moves they've seen themselves and/or question my own suggestion if they think I'm wrong or simply see an alternative. That's a given in top clans and teams.

This is exactly what I was saying.

Of course everyone should be contributing, but someone really does have to take leadership. I never said that the rest should be dumb followers. How is that teamwork? "Okay here's the plan..." or "Here's how I'm thinking we should play it..." kinda thing. When everyone is in agreement on one person's main strategy, you have a better chance of winning than if everyone is just playing it turn to turn. You kinda need a loose overall plan imo.

I sometimes play with people who really like to lead, and I take more of a backseat there, chiming in if I think they made a mistake... or I see something better. Even the greatest players miss things. BUT... there are times where I have lead clan games, where I made the overall plan. Other people might go "Oh but I think this might be better." That's good. That's exactly what you want them to do if they don't necessarily agree. It means they're actually playing the game.

Sure, sometimes, you'll be in a team game with someone intimidatingly good and you're like "Can't fault their move plan." You check, but it's flawless lol. You know the type of people I'm talking about. Other games, you might have everyone making suggestions for their own moves, and wait for someone to agree with them, or suggest something better.

I find this usually in non-clan games, but when you have a team that doesn't gel, no one is truly leading and everyone wants their plan to be the one on top, you lose. You can't win when there isn't a single overall strategy and people are simply playing move to move and not thinking a few moves ahead.

[BabySasuke]

cute argument, corporal lives matter

[Shannon Apple]

As a matter of interest, ignoring what any of you might think of me as a person, who would be interested in me based on my team stats alone?

Agree with rockfist. All-rounders are possibly more valuable in some ways. Nothing stopping any person from practicing a specialist map just so they can be ready to jump in to help where necessary. I'm not a map specialist, but I have a couple of favourites that I love to play. Besides, no one really recruits on stats alone. It's important to know how a player plays within a team. You won't know that from playing against them, so might need test games with members of the clan. The purpose of those are not just about gameplay, but to get to know the player to ensure that they are a good fit for the team.

I enjoy the team play (would enjoy it more if there weren't so many missed moves and those ignoring chat to do their own thing),

This right here is the reason that some of the lower tier clans don't reach the big game. They keep players like this around. The clans up there in the top 5 probably boot them out if they start acting this way and don't improve. Those type of people are the ones that run the good players off. It's kinda important not to let them join in the first place, then you don't have that dilemma of getting to know and like them. If you're anything like me, I'd find it impossible to kick them unless they were horrible people. lol.

[iAmCaffeine]

100% agree with that first point. If I was speaking to a potential recruit for Aeternus and they had multiple options, I would stress that it’s about finding the best clan for them not just based on rank but where the company suits them too.

[Extreme Ways]

Considering today's posts, well, the stats don't seem to bear out the arguments, for the most part (but not always) wars between the top clans are effectively 6-8 vs 6-8 with the rest of the clan getting bits. If 2/3 of those taking the heaviest game load go down then so does the clan regardless of whether there are several with 80%+ from their handful of games.

Mid-lower ranked clans relying heavily on a handful do seem to get stuffed when those most relied on get hammered.

No question that there are some shit hot players involved in clan games that have tactical nous on a multitude of maps, if your clan doesn't have at least 3 or 4 of them then you're never going to compete midranks, let alone at the top, it really might as well be 8v8, those making up the numbers rarely make a difference to the result.

Like Rock and Shannon said - every clan needs good, competitive fillers. I think a big strength of TOFU is how well our players are able to adapt during a turn when something isnt as planned. I see myself as one of those fillers for TOFU. I do not have an absurdly high win rate on any map but I can be an good addition to almost any team (if I may say so myself). Of the 16 games I played, I think I was a "real leader" in 1 - the random Rail SA trips.

As for the 6-8 argument, some of our more prominent players in the past have taken a step back and now enjoy playing just a single game. For the outside that maybe feels like it's 8v8, but when I read in our forum that due to the awaygames, Cat or Doc want an extra game I light up.

As a matter of interest, ignoring what any of you might think of me as a person, who would be interested in me based on my team stats alone? I don't really have any specialist maps, I have helped developed a good number of those that we regularly use (for better or worse) and have stepped aside for others to play them, but can always fill in when needed. Of course I won't move, when FIASCO eventually dies then I walk away from CC (assuming that I haven't died already), I enjoy the team play (would enjoy it more if there weren't so many missed moves and those ignoring chat to do their own thing), there's not many left of the group that arrived 7 years ago to form the FISO clan.

Not ignoring what I think of you as a person. I really like the way you argue. When the time comes you can always knock on our door and assuming you're still serious about clans, we'll almost always extend the courtesy of trial games before forming a definitive answer. You don't seem like a "proven" clanplayer wrt TOFU, but we'd be crazy to dismiss you without a chance. That being said, I dont think we care too much about "team stats".

[rockfist]

I’ve had to make the call to “work people out.” We have many good friendships within TOFU, but at the end of the day TOFU exists to win. It’s not fun making that choice, yet it’s necessary for the team. There are great players that we need to keep reasonably happy by not teaming them with careless players or letting careless players cause losses.

[Shannon Apple]

I’ve had to make the call to “work people out.” We have many good friendships within TOFU, but at the end of the day TOFU exists to win. It’s not fun making that choice, yet it’s necessary for the team. There are great players that we need to keep reasonably happy by not teaming them with careless players or letting careless players cause losses.

Oh I agree with you 100%. I'm not a clan leader, so was just speaking from a personality point of view. You need at least one person in leadership who is willing to do what needs to be done for the good of the clan. I know that's not everyone, and it's kinda the reason why leaders are letting players get away with it. That said, if I had a talk with someone and they gave me attitude instead of agreeing to pull their weight, that would help me make the decision to kick them.

A few years back, I had a conversation in the chatroom with a member of a middle strength clan. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. He was accusing KoRT and TOFU of controlling their players, among other things. Sure... he might not be the only one thinking that, but of course it's not true. We just expect a higher standard from everyone, but doesn't mean we don't have laughs and enjoy clan life like every other clan. Anyway, he said that he didn't take other people's opinions in game chat,that he was an individual and could play whatever way he saw fit. He was in a mid-tier clan. A clan that I thought was going places to be honest. Some people in chat agreed with him, but those ones didn't surprise me. A couple of them were in crappy clans. Unsurprisingly, some months later, he was clanless. Guess they figured him out.

[iAmCaffeine]

That sounds like a lot of players in mediocre or bad clans. Lots of them simply don't understand what makes them so much worse and instead of figuring out how to improve, they find ways to try and bring those above them down to make themselves feel better. Like if they find a reason via an injustice rather than admitting faults, it makes it better or something. I dunno. Never understood that outlook myself.

Surprisingly I've never been someone who had a hard time kicking people and telling them to f*ck off if required.

[rockfist]

People who just want to complain about other people being better than them and have no understanding why it is that way will never succeed in this game, or anything else. Now there are certain settings on this game where I’m not as good as some people - and I know full well why...because they do things I’m not willing to do for an individual game. I really can’t bitch about them being better under those circumstances now can I?

I don’t know 100% what goes on in S&M, but I can say this much about it, it works very well. Mid tier clans have no understanding of what it requires to be competitive with S&M, much less beat them, if you off even slightly from your best it’s curtains. If mid tier clans players think one person could possibly pull all the strings in a war like that (for either side) they are batshit crazy.

Caff, i think maybe you misunderstand what I mean by it’s not fun. I’ll leave it at that, but if you think about it, it can mean more than one thing.

[Donelladan]

If mid tier clans players think one person could possibly pull all the strings in a war like that (for either side) they are batshit crazy.

Because the abuse sitting case against TOFU and S&M a few years back didn't happen ? or it wasn't true ?

I've been reading this thread without commenting for a while, and I've seen many coming here saying to Vid that he was so wrong to think that a top clan was just a few very good players giving orders to everyone.

Of course, I don't believe it is the case, but at some point people made this opinion based on some facts as well.

In the topic about best clans ever, I've seen people coming from top-ranked clan saying it was the case for another clan ( basically this clan was good because one player was doing most of the job, once he was gone that clan was crap). Even member of top clans are assuming so...

Also, the TOP sitting abuse case that was made by josko.ri during the previous CL: josko was basically saying what Vid said when he was accusing TOP.
That they purposely let the clock run out so that the better player could play the move. Why ? because there is one leader and people just following around. ( and TOP use the line of defense that you've been using here, namely; everyone is just as experienced that's just stupid to think they'd let the clock run out to have a better player playing the turn).

In all team games, there has to be a leader, always.

Of course based on that, there is then a small line between the leader just making everything and the other just being followers.
I mean sometimes it happens just because the leader is right and you have nothing else to add but actually you would have come with the same idea. And sometimes it happens because the other players are just followers. But I wouldn't be able to tell the difference by just reading the chat. Can't expect outsider to make it.

Also I think for many maps, one very good leader and 3 followers ( thinking quad) can be just as good as a team of 4 very good players. The advantage of 4 good players have already been mentioned and I agree with have been said, but for many maps and situation it won't matter as much as the dice will so the team with one good player, as long as he is there all the time to give input on time, will do just as good as the other team I think at least 9 times out of 10.
Like let's say you play mogul trench for those who knows, really I could play it blind. There isn't so many unexpected situation that can happen, you only need one player.

And btw I disagree with that quoted comment. A leader is not always necessary. We don't always have one in the team game I play, depends on the map and the experience of the partners mainly.

[rockfist]

I think you are going back more than a few years.

[iAmCaffeine]

People who just want to complain about other people being better than them and have no understanding why it is that way will never succeed in this game, or anything else. Now there are certain settings on this game where I’m not as good as some people - and I know full well why...because they do things I’m not willing to do for an individual game. I really can’t bitch about them being better under those circumstances now can I?

I don’t know 100% what goes on in S&M, but I can say this much about it, it works very well. Mid tier clans have no understanding of what it requires to be competitive with S&M, much less beat them, if you off even slightly from your best it’s curtains. If mid tier clans players think one person could possibly pull all the strings in a war like that (for either side) they are batshit crazy.

Caff, i think maybe you misunderstand what I mean by it’s not fun. I’ll leave it at that, but if you think about it, it can mean more than one thing.

I can think of three very different reasons for having to remove a player, counting underpeforming as one rather than like missed turns, bad communication etc being separate. I don’t think it would ever be fun though.

[iAmCaffeine]

Regarding what Don said about TOP, I would argue their clan is very different to other top clans of the last couple years. TOP has a handful of quality players and then loads of mediocre. That happens in all clans, but less so in the best.

[Extreme Ways]

Regarding what Don said about TOP, I would argue their clan is very different to other top clans of the last couple years. TOP has a handful of quality players and then loads of mediocre. That happens in all clans, but less so in the best.

I could even argue that some of the posters here want to say that TOP is nowadays an outlier and not considered a top clan. Some of TOP's "highest rated players" don't even play as much, whereas someone like you and CoF played the maximum amount of games. That makes you guys backbones of your respective clans, but it's not solely you that are playing and everybody else matters too. VoF isn't someone that dismisses someone else's opinion in its entirety, neither are you. We have strong players backing him up and suggesting strong moves before CoF is even looking. Those very strong players just play the perfect move more often.

@Don I agree that numerous maps can be played as a single player, but I also do think that many top clans try to stay away from these games.

[rockfist]

We've won some big wars and championships both with CoF and without him. We are better with him, but its not like we were trash without him.

[Extreme Ways]

We've won some big wars and championships both with CoF and without him. We are better with him, but its not like we were trash without him.

He's still one of our backbones currently . If you compare our current roster to our roster at the time of the last S&M war, I think you will also conclude that some of our most important players took a step back and are now playing minimal games, or just less games.

[iAmCaffeine]

We have strong players backing him up and suggesting strong moves before CoF is even looking. Those very strong players just play the perfect move more often.

This is false. It is statistically impossible to have even opened the game for your first move before CoF has already been in and left 15 lines of text.