[CC7] Finals S&M (31) vs FALL (30) - S&M Wins - Final 4/5/18

[Donelladan]

Well, anyway, I don't think that COF opinion in the matter should determine who is right. But I read COF statements again, for me he is referring to the cup tied rule, or he is mistaking the "one clan rule" for the cup tied rule.


Btw, could you disclose what is the current status ? Will all three games be replayed, or will only the one S&M wins be replayed ?

[josko.ri]

Well, anyway, I don't think that COF opinion in the matter should determine who is right. But I read COF statements again, for me he is referring to the cup tied rule, or he is mistaking the "one clan rule" for the cup tied rule.


Btw, could you disclose what is the current status ? Will all three games be replayed, or will only the one S&M wins be replayed ?

We are negotiating.
Side of S&M is that nothing should be replayed because we did what was approved by TO Keefie at the time of sending invites.

Also, isn't recent policy of CC that common sense prevails when applicable? Now, look for common sense in this case. On the time of sending invites at 7 of January, Swifte is eliminated as a player from all his games for TNC so he is not playing any more turns by himself, only in the last ongoing game 1 of 4 players from his team is alive and waiting to be cleared out in next several hours/days.

Isn't common sense that the game and Swifte's contribution to TNC clan is already over at that moment and that he can proceed to the new clan?

[Robespierre__]

It seems like a petty difference and I would personally not protest. But I think that all clan games are finished seems (even if you are eliminated) seems like a clean, good rule.

[IcePack]

Josko if your going to explain it, at least have the courtesy of giving all the details.

Dave reached out to me in the public CD skype chat on dec 30 and clarified the rule.
He confirmed that he understood and that CC8 would be the first they could use swifte. This happened before set 2 was exchanged. What FALL based our research on, home games etc

Then, swifte got eliminated (but not completed games as was specifically mentioned in that discussion when I clarified the rules). He went Keefie and asked if they could use him, who said yes. He didn’t look up the rule and has since stated that he made a mistake and the games should be remade.

Dave asked me dec 30
Our set 2 was exchanged dec 31
Swifte eliminated from games Jan 4/5th
Dave asked Keefie (after we already confirmed together he was ineligible) but did not C.C. nor include or notify FALL in anyway about this convo or rule change
Jan 7 games start
Jan 9 is when he became eligible
Jan 10 I notice swifte in game and ask what happened

This could have been prevented by including me on the pm to begin with and allowing us a chance to voice our own concerns, but instead it was hidden from us and had to find out this way after we had literally talked about it almost two weeks before.

This is not our fault that the games are being remade. Had this been openly conducted before games started instead of in some pm we weren’t included or notified of, this could have been resolved before games started.

I openly discussed with Dave ahead of time to try avoiding this very situation, to which Josko is now saying he didn’t know the rule (which dave did as the MOW as we discussed specifics of the rule and is available in CD area) and claiming I have personal bias. When this is my area of expertise on the CD team, and have had to enforce and inform other clans multiple times and not just my interpretation. It’s been the ongoing handling of the rule for multiple head Cd’s now and has nothing to do with my personal take.

From the start I’ve been communicative with dave regarding this when he asked and it seems we have not been treated with the same courtesy.

[IcePack]

Also IcePack, you only gave quote of the 'rule' but without timestamp. Can you provide timestamp when the quote from Leehar was written? I am interested to see if the 'rule' was written before any issue occurred or later.

However, it's become apparent in recent weeks that there still remains some uncertainty around the specifics & therefore some unwitting contraventions of the 1 Competitive Clan Rule have occurred.

Leehar points out that some uncertainties about the rule appeared in recent weeks which tells me that the rule was written AFTER the issue occurred in our current war. Is that true?

1 Clan Rule
by Leehar » Sat May 04, 2013 12:12 pm

[josko.ri]

Also IcePack, you only gave quote of the 'rule' but without timestamp. Can you provide timestamp when the quote from Leehar was written? I am interested to see if the 'rule' was written before any issue occurred or later.

However, it's become apparent in recent weeks that there still remains some uncertainty around the specifics & therefore some unwitting contraventions of the 1 Competitive Clan Rule have occurred.

Leehar points out that some uncertainties about the rule appeared in recent weeks which tells me that the rule was written AFTER the issue occurred in our current war. Is that true?

1 Clan Rule
by Leehar » Sat May 04, 2013 12:12 pm

S&M clan works as group of leaders not only as one leader. Therefore, nobody except Dave who is CD could see that rule. Me, for example, could not see that rule and Dave and me are together making decisions about assigning our teams. We had legit question whether the rule applies only to finished games or enough condition is that player is eliminated from all games for previous Clan, which Keefie confirmed that being eliminated is enough for the player to become eligible.
See, two players from CD group (Dave and Keefie) thought that being eliminated is enough. Does it mean that the rule is not precisely defined there?

As for your telling to Dave that Swifte is not eligible, it was on December 30 and I agree that on that date he was not eligible. However, not being eligible on December 30 doesn't mean nothing about January 7 because he could become eliminated from all TNC games or his all TNC games could end by January 7.

He confirmed that he understood and that CC8 would be the first they could use swifte. This happened before set 2 was exchanged. What FALL based our research on, home games etc

How could you tell him on December 30 that Swifte is not eligible? Do you see ahead of time and you know that his games (which were all about to be ended soon) will not end before joining deadline January 7? You overused and abused your integrity as CD if you ordered Davekettering to not use Swifte on December 30 because on that date you could not know if his last games for TNC will end before or after January 7.

[IcePack]

Also IcePack, you only gave quote of the 'rule' but without timestamp. Can you provide timestamp when the quote from Leehar was written? I am interested to see if the 'rule' was written before any issue occurred or later.

However, it's become apparent in recent weeks that there still remains some uncertainty around the specifics & therefore some unwitting contraventions of the 1 Competitive Clan Rule have occurred.

Leehar points out that some uncertainties about the rule appeared in recent weeks which tells me that the rule was written AFTER the issue occurred in our current war. Is that true?

1 Clan Rule
by Leehar » Sat May 04, 2013 12:12 pm

S&M clan works as group of leaders not only as one leader. Therefore, nobody except Dave who is CD could see that rule. Me, for example, could not see that rule and Dave and me are together making decisions about assigning our teams. We had legit question whether the rule applies only to finished games or enough condition is that player is eliminated from all games for previous Clan, which Keefie confirmed that being eliminated is enough for the player to become eligible.
See, two players from CD group (Dave and Keefie) thought that being eliminated is enough. Does it mean that the rule is not precisely defined there?

As for your telling to Dave that Swifte is not eligible, it was on December 30 and I agree that on that date he was not eligible. However, not being eligible on December 30 doesn't mean nothing about January 7 because he could become eliminated from all TNC games or his all TNC games could end by January 7.

He confirmed that he understood and that CC8 would be the first they could use swifte. This happened before set 2 was exchanged. What FALL based our research on, home games etc

How could you tell him on December 30 that Swifte is not eligible? Do you see ahead of time and you know that his games (which were all about to be ended soon) will not end before joining deadline January 7? You overused and abused your integrity as CD if you ordered Davekettering to not use Swifte on December 30 because on that date you could not know if his last games for TNC will end before or after January 7.

There wasn’t a need to “see” the rule (even though your minister of war could have if he wanted) because he already knew the rule becausehim and I went over the rule together in depth.

Keefie already said he made a mistake, and regardless it wasn’t done with our knowledge as neither dave nor Keefie informed us of it.

Our war exchange was dec 31st. When we looked it this it was Dec 30th. He had 3 ongoing games for TNC. The round started when we exchanged maps. He wasn’t eligible then. He still wasn’t eligible in Jan 7th when the games started. So regardless of what date you use to start the round he still wasn’t eligible.

I didn’t ORDER dave to do anything. Please don’t speak of conversations when you weren’t apart of it. He asked me what the rule was and I explained it to him.

The rule is those games are void (forfeit). I don’t like forfeits. My clan wants to win a fair fought war. Fairly fought meaning we didn’t do it by forfeits, and basic rules such as one clan rule applies. We’ve requested remakes which I believe is fair considering the circumstances.

[IcePack]

You overused and abused your integrity as CD if you ordered Davekettering to not use Swifte on December 30 because on that date you could not know if his last games for TNC will end before or after January 7.

Please tell me where dave is confused about the rule, where i overused and abused my integrity as a CD. AFTER this discussion, without my knowledge or even courtesy PM dave asked Keefie. Keefie already said he made a mistake and didn’t look up the rule.

Start of CD Convo


This one I explicity explain the rules


How the CD Public Discussion Ended: (Dec 30th)

[Lord Arioch]

In my defence to not knowing this specific rule i will say this IF the circumstance of me doubting stuff concerning clan... i would ask icepack and abide by his rule... or the entire crew of mods in clan Life... they do wonderfull shit here!

In the case above I agree with icepack... asking for a remake of the games seems the best solution! someone did a mistake so what, lets remake and do war!

[josko.ri]

This shouldn't even be an issue. Dave specifically asked IcePack about usage of a player while they are still in games for their previous clan.

Quote from IcePack in the above conversation:

"Also will have to see if he has any active TNC games, If he does he's not eligible for games in S&M until he completes the TNC ones.
> This quote says "until HE completes" and he indeed completed his last TNC game on January 5 when he was eliminated. After that he could have only advisory role in the game, and advisory role does not make him active player because he can have advisory role to TNC clan anytime if he wants (even now). IcePack's words do not say "until game is completed" but it says "until he completes" which could mean until his own participation in the game is ongoing.

See, it was not clearly answered by you does "until he completes" means until he is eliminated from last game or until the last game is over. That is why we asked Keefie for clarification and Keefie clarified that it means until he is eliminated from all games.

[IcePack]

I reiterated later in the convo “he’s not eligible for any s&m games until those games complete”. But way to selectively quote Josko

Dave also confirms later CC8 is the first time he’s eligible, HE says that. Not me forcing him or abusing him

And again, Keefie already said he made a mistake didn’t look up the rule and determined they would be remade.

[groovysmurf]

You're arguing semantics here, josko. This part of the conversation is clear as day.

[12/30/2017 6:44:29 PM] IcePack .: He’s not eligible for any S&M games at all until those games complete
[12/30/2017 6:45:09 PM] IcePack .: You have to be done 100% with your old clan before starting with your new one. You may join the new one but not participate until they finish all games with the old
[12/30/2017 6:45:14 PM] IcePack .: (One clan rule)

[12/30/2017 6:47:30 PM] Dave Kettering: I understand that. That is why I asked after the games were finished if he was eligible.

[josko.ri]

It absolutely blows my mind that a clan as successful as S&M feel the need to "bend the rules" just to win something.

I cannot say anything more than big LOL to this comment. Look where Swifte was put to play:
1. In Feudal where he played 30 games ever while me who is playing with him have played almost 400 times and am leading strategy there.
2. In Cricket where skillfull played the map double more times than Swifte and is using the map in our home set. Therefore, it is again likely that Swifte will not be leader in this game.
3. NW passage is the only map where Swifte is more experienced than teammates, but that is just a single map.

Therefore, his contribution to 3 games, 2 of them where he will likely be follower, is very minor comparing to total load of 61 game war and chances that his contribution will be decider in the war are almost zero.

And now, look at what IcePack is fighting for and what is negative side for CC in terms of popularizing clan world. Every year we have less and less Clans, less and less players participating in CCups. Do we really want to reject participation of a player who would like to play and did not yet play in CC7 for any other clan (because TNC did not participate)? For what reason we want to reject him, because of technicality that in his last game there was last player alive from his team waiting to be cleared out by opponents with question will he be cleared today or tomorrow? Where is common sense here? If IcePack has any common sense as a Head CD he would very much welcome new player to participate in Clan events that he did not yet participate, instead of rejecting new participation because of technicality and because of 1-2 days difference about when the last game for previous Clan will end?

[josko.ri]

You're arguing semantics here, josko. This part of the conversation is clear as day.

[12/30/2017 6:44:29 PM] IcePack .: He’s not eligible for any S&M games at all until those games complete
[12/30/2017 6:45:09 PM] IcePack .: You have to be done 100% with your old clan before starting with your new one. You may join the new one but not participate until they finish all games with the old
[12/30/2017 6:45:14 PM] IcePack .: (One clan rule)

[12/30/2017 6:47:30 PM] Dave Kettering: I understand that. That is why I asked after the games were finished if he was eligible.

This was answer when Dave asked for CL9 games (arguing his question that different rules may appear for Cup and League), while previous answer was when Dave asked for CC7 games.

From 2 answers from IcePack in the quoted conversation, one answer can be understood as until Swifte is eliminated (answer to question about CC7 eligibility) and other answer can be understood as until Swifte finishes all games (however this is answer to question about CC9 eligibility).

Therefore, as IcePack's answers could be understood on two ways, we asked Keefie for clarification because we were not sure what is right rule after reading IcePack's explanation.

[IcePack]

I’m discussing this again w Dave. Hopefully we can resolve this and move forward. This public mud slingling is the last thing I wanted when I approached Dave privately over pm.

I don’t want to continue to muddy an otherwise friendly war that’s gone well so far.

[MTIceman41]

I’m discussing this again w Dave. Hopefully we can resolve this and move forward. This public mud slingling is the last thing I wanted when I approached Dave privately over pm.

I don’t want to continue to muddy an otherwise friendly war that’s gone well so far.

I can back that up...I dont think anything was done out of malice or trickery.

Lots of very good players and friends; lets keep it going as a good war.

[CatchersMitt14]

It really doesn't matter what IcePack said to Dave. At that point they were talking as two MOWs (one for FALL and one for S&M). IcePack has more insight into the rules as the head CD however in this situation he is the FALL MOW and as such on equal footing as Dave, S&M's MOW.

Keefie, the TO, is the ultimate dictator of the rules here. If Dave asked the TO and the TO said, 'yes, Swifte can play' then that's the ruling. IcePack may outrank Keefie in the clan department however when it comes to the tournaments and leagues Keefie is positionally over IcePack. One wouldn't think twice about playing Swifte after the TO explicitly said Swifte can play.

I read that Keefie has since said it was a mistake on his part to allow Swifte to play however it's too late. S&M shouldn't get punished and have to remake their games because the TO made a bad call. Keefie should just own it on his part and not make the same mistake again in the future. In any sports game, if the ref makes a bad call and the armchair quarterbacks criticize the ref the next day, the score still stands. They don't replay the game.

[Keefie]

I would like to unreservedly apologise to Swifte and the leaders and members of both S&M and FALL for making a huge mistake in giving S&M the ok to play Swifte in set 2.

DaveKettering asked me via private Skype last Sunday if it was ok for Swifte to play. I checked to see if Swifte was still in any TNC games and there was one that, although Swifte had been eliminated, was still active. At the time I was satisfied that allowing Swifte to play in set 2 games would not be breaking the one clan rule.

It has since been pointed out to me that the rule clearly states 'Therefore, a player can not start a clan game with his New Clan, until all competitive clan games with the Previous Clan have ended'

The three CC7 games that Swifte joined all began before the TNC game finished, so I've made the decision that these three games should be remade without him.

I'm truly very sorry for what was an honest mistake.

[josko.ri]

What I want the most here is that we popularize Clan competitions by allowing more players to play, not restricting them to play because of a technicality which is question of 1-2 days. We want Clan world to evolve and we will not do it by rejecting players from playing and taking away their fun. Swifte did not participate in CC7 as player and why should we reject his right to play because of a technicality. He did not enter our clan just to give us "help" in CC7 but contrary to that he entered in our clan to make long term dedication and contribution with us so his recruiting is done with good faith, not to avoid or bend any rules or to gain any unfair advantage.

[Swifte]

First, thanks Keefie, I believe it was an honest mistake.
Second, I'm sorry for the disruption. I approached S&M about joining purely to get in before CC8. It had never even crossed my mind I might fit in to CC7, but dave wanted to keep an eye on it to see if the timing might work. He messaged me on the 7th, said we had the all clear from Keefie, so I joined and that was it from my end, thought all was square.
Third, while I understand the intention of the rule.. look at the reality: I joined the 3 games a mere 2 hrs before my former TNC teammate took what would definitely be our last turn in my last TNC game.. there was nothing left to happen there, and yes it took the other clan 2 days to play the turns that finished him off.. but really absolutely nothing happened in the 2 hours between when I joined the S&M games and when my TNC teammate ultimately took the last turn in my last game with them. There was plenty of time left on the 7th that I could have waited and joined after he played that turn... it just seems like that should matter to how the rule is applied.
So all that said, I get that the rules are the rules but I can see why dave and keefie thought all was clear, I believed it as well.. just seems very nit-picky to replay them over that... But, if it comes to it, I do appreciate the offer to let S&M replay the games rather than forfeit... that'd be extreme.
Last, I'm flattered you think I matter so much

I won't argue beyond this, just wanted to speak for myself from my side. We can still have an enjoyable rest of the war one way or the other.

[Dukasaur]

I don't normally stick my nose into clan business, but since josko was nice enough to wall me and invite me here, I'll give my opinion whether anyone wants it or not.

This kind of thing wouldn't even be necessary if people wouldn't be flying so close to the rules. If you always err on the side of caution, you don't get this problem at all. If my bills are due on the 18th, I pay them on the 15th, just to be sure. There's always some jackass who won't pay a bill due on the 18th until the 18th, and then he gets a flat tire on the way to the bank and misses the due date, and then he wants the world to feel sorry for him and give him an extension.

I never even dreamed that anyone would try to run so close to the "one clan" rule. If I was running the clan, and somebody came to me from another clan, I would wait at least a month or two to make absolutely sure that he had no outstanding commitments to his previous clan. Can you imagine a pro football team trading players five minutes before the Superbowl and using a newly-acquired player in the starting lineup? I never would have imagined that there are clans so pathetic and hard-up for members that they have to throw a new recruit into a competitive game five minutes after he joins. Just fucking sad.

In many countries there are (or at least used to be) laws that required you to wait nine months after a divorce before applying for a new marriage certificate, just to be absolutely sure there were no hidden surprises. Why not have something like that: a 60-day or 90-day quarantine period after a player joins a clan before he can play in any competitive event?

I've never had any need to think about this before, but I always assumed it meant that if you play in any competitive event, you can't change clans until that event is done. D O N E DONE> Not just all games finished, but results verified and posted, etc. It really blows my mind that anyone would even want to use a player that so recently was in bed with someone else's clan. Are you not the least bit worried about sabotage?

Anyway, just my two cents. I have zero sympathy for anyone who flies so close to the boundary that they accidentally fly over the edge. Should have stayed more comfortably inside. If you always err on the side of patience and caution, you'll never be wrong.

[davekettering]

S&M will agree to remake these three games. However i do feel that we should clarify the rules such that this situation is never repeated.

thank you all for the input.

Lets get on with finishing this war.

Dave

[josko.ri]

I don't normally stick my nose into clan business, but since josko was nice enough to wall me and invite me here, I'll give my opinion whether anyone wants it or not.

This kind of thing wouldn't even be necessary if people wouldn't be flying so close to the rules. If you always err on the side of caution, you don't get this problem at all. If my bills are due on the 18th, I pay them on the 15th, just to be sure. There's always some jackass who won't pay a bill due on the 18th until the 18th, and then he gets a flat tire on the way to the bank and misses the due date, and then he wants the world to feel sorry for him and give him an extension.

I never even dreamed that anyone would try to run so close to the "one clan" rule. If I was running the clan, and somebody came to me from another clan, I would wait at least a month or two to make absolutely sure that he had no outstanding commitments to his previous clan. Can you imagine a pro football team trading players five minutes before the Superbowl and using a newly-acquired player in the starting lineup? I never would have imagined that there are clans so pathetic and hard-up for members that they have to throw a new recruit into a competitive game five minutes after he joins. Just fucking sad.

In many countries there are (or at least used to be) laws that required you to wait nine months after a divorce before applying for a new marriage certificate, just to be absolutely sure there were no hidden surprises. Why not have something like that: a 60-day or 90-day quarantine period after a player joins a clan before he can play in any competitive event?

I've never had any need to think about this before, but I always assumed it meant that if you play in any competitive event, you can't change clans until that event is done. D O N E DONE> Not just all games finished, but results verified and posted, etc. It really blows my mind that anyone would even want to use a player that so recently was in bed with someone else's clan. Are you not the least bit worried about sabotage?

Anyway, just my two cents. I have zero sympathy for anyone who flies so close to the boundary that they accidentally fly over the edge. Should have stayed more comfortably inside. If you always err on the side of patience and caution, you'll never be wrong.

Dukasaur, maybe it didnt catch your attention but Swifte's previous clan TNC did not participate in CCup7, therefore Swifte is brand new player in terms of playing in CCup7 tournament, which is different than the "divorce" case you are comparing it with.

[emilywink]

i have so much respect for josko and icepack it is really off the charts and thank you both so much for how much you contribute to my clan/CC in general.

nothing was done out of malice.

it is not hard to see how josko would be frustrated with the situation because with common sense really it is a bunch of silliness, this is a game, and I think that it's unfortunate that a small amount of time in an insignificant game a player was eliminated from can cause something like games in a war to not count.

it is not hard to see how icepack was shocked by the situation, upset about not being included in the further communication that took place, and wants to abide by the rules as they are written. it is also awesome that he is not trying to push for games being a forfeit which would be excessive in my opinion.

I feel a huge need (maybe even a yearning) to play in a game with swifte right now.
that swifte, so hot right now.

ok, i am gonna go over here and sit with Rockfist