Closed S&M Cheating Abuse fishydance, Josko.ri, random21

[FreeFalling123]

show: intro

Game 17163490 — Fishydance along with various sitters —
Gross Abuse USA 2.1 Remake:
Account sitters took 2 of the first 3 (66%) of Fishy's OPENING moves.
We ask that this case is checked into, immediately. We at TOP are asking that
this game be rightfully judged in the clan world as well as in the site sitting rules.

The Clan Sitting Rules state: “Clan members must be
responsible for their own turns.
4. You must not enter clan games if you know in
advance that you will not be able to take the vast majority of your turns.

If you are going to participate in clan games, it
should be you who will actually play in these games.”
 
Since Fishy has not being responsible for these key moves, we at TOP believe justice
must be served. This is happening in a game that was remade because S&M complained about
"sitting abuse." S&M should have been abundantly sure fishy could take her own turns in
this game! Additionally, fishydance & S&M clearly knew she was
having trouble making it to her turns PRIOR to the Remade game even
starting, which means she & S&M both knew in advance that she
would not be able to take the vast majority of her turns. Additionally,
the players sitting for her were considerably more experienced , and
S&M thereby gained a significant tactical advantage.
 

show: Evidence 1--before remake

show: evidence 2--games after remake

S&M knew she would not be able to take the
"Vast Majority" of turns in her games and specifically in the USA 2.1
Remade Game. Additionally they still know this (Because Josko just said
it) yet they have her entered in yet another game waiting to begin.

 
Gentlemen, we feel this evidence clearly shows
Gross Sitting Abuse. S&M knew fishydance would not be able to take a
vast majority of her turns and act responsibly according to Siting Rules.

 
We ask specifically for this remedy: That S&M
should forfeit the USA 2.1 game because they knew all along what was
happening and allowed it to continue. If you feel this is not reasonable,
then we ask that the original USA 2.1 game be counted as the true game for
the CL 8 match between S&M & TOP. If you feel this is not
reasonable, we then ask that a 3rd remake USA 2.1 game be created as the
deciding game.
 
TOP is not making this claim of Sitting Abuse
frivolously. We are also not doing so as retaliation to S&M. Our 9
member Leadership Group has reviewed this information extensively and
sincerely believe Gross Sitting abuse has occurred. S&M put a player
in games (In particular the USA 2.1 Remake Game) knowing full well from
her recent past need for sitting that she would not be able to take the
vast majority of her turns as the rules clearly state. Additionally, the
players sitting for her were considerably more experienced than her, and
S&M thereby gained a significant tactical advantage. This was their
action. This was their intent & this is what the evidence clearly
verifies.
 
-Thank you for hearing our concerns. Please view
this as you would any abuse accusation.

 - Sincerely -
FreeFalling123 and The TOP Leadership Group♎"

[IcePack]

Thanks, I'll review the case & contact C&A / Admins.

[Bruceswar]

Sour grapes much over yours and paulets ban? sheesh

[khazalid]

jesus christ lads

[betiko]

This is why clans are not fun anymore. At least the bannermen thingy is, yay

[BIG_John]

So what I am getting from the non TOP fans is it is ok for S&M to report TOP for sitting abuse but TOP is not allowed to report the same people for the same exact thing that they got reported for! Sounds like double standards to me! Anything for you guys to knock TOP off the number 1 spot because you obviously cant beat them without playing a fair set!

[Donelladan]

So what I am getting from the non TOP fans is it is ok for S&M to report TOP for sitting abuse but TOP is not allowed to report the same people for the same exact thing that they got reported for! Sounds like double standards to me! Anything for you guys to knock TOP off the number 1 spot because you obviously cant beat them without playing a fair set!

3 replies were made, one by a S&M member ( Brucewar) that was clearly against your post for sure.
The 2 others are not saying you shouldn't be reporting, imo they are only saying the whole story is annoying, your case, the previous one as well very probably.
Stop acting like a victim.

Also - stop being a arrogant and maybe they'd be less anti-TOP people, this is complete non-sense :
"Anything for you guys to knock TOP off the number 1 spot because you obviously cant beat them without playing a fair set!"

1) other clans than you have been ranked number 1, and there was never a cabale to knock them out of 1st spot.
2) you maybe ranked 1st at the F400 but this isn't an accomplishment. the best clans of CC is the winner of the CC7, and it's TOFU. Before it was FALL. You wanna be number 1 clan, you have to win the CC8 - for now you are just a good clan in the CL.

Btw, just fyi, no one is afraid of you as you may think. We enjoy the competition.


Just on the case now.
You are making a report in C&A but apparently you are saying S&M broke the clan sitting rule.
If it's a breach of clan sitting rule, I think you are in the wrong section and you should go to the clan forum or the CD.

If you want to say they made abusive sitting regarding site rule then you may want to change your argumentation.

It also would further legitimize a previous
case filed against me, as I was warned and had a game remade for doing
a very similar act (account sitting 2 moves in early key rounds of a game).

Maybe a full disclosure of what FreeFalling was punished should be made somewhere ?
Apparently TOP is thinking the game was remade only because of the 2 move freefalling sitted. Is it the case ? I don't think so but the case was never made fully public and it's very difficult to understand what happened now.

[xroads]

There is one very very big difference

Fishy was MIA and needed sitting for. Well within site & clan sitting rules.

She was not online, actively taking turns in other games and letting this one go.

Apples/oranges

[MagnusGreeol]

Just on thecase now.
You are making a report in C&A but apparently you are saying S&M broke the clan sitting rule.
If it's a breach of clan sitting rule, I think you are in the wrong section and you should go to the clan forum or the CD.

If you want to say they made abusive sitting regarding site rule then you may want to change your argumentation.

- We brought this to CD team on 2/16, Were told over and over to make a C&A report

[zips5000]

Just on the case now.
You are making a report in C&A but apparently you are saying S&M broke the clan sitting rule.
If it's a breach of clan sitting rule, I think you are in the wrong section and you should go to the clan forum or the CD.

Funny thing is, we did exactly that more than 3 weeks ago, but IcePack said it had to be filed here.

[rockfist]

Blah blah blah we are TOP and everyone hates us because we are good. No, people don't like you because you are loud mouth whiners.

You want to perceive yourself as a victim? Wait till we get done with you, it won't be a perception. You'll be road kill.

[xroads]

Blah blah blah we are TOP and everyone hates us because we are good. No, people don't like you because you are loud mouth whiners.

You want to perceive yourself as a victim? Wait till we get done with you, it won't be a perception. You'll be road kill.

Damn, I could feel the heat from that burn all the way over here.

[willedtowin1]

[FreeFalling123]

hey Don, I posted in here about what you are saying...
viewtopic.php?f=438&t=221586&start=100
We are just looking for legitimacy in what other people may see as apples and oranges, but is another loop hole abused by S&M ... whether account sharing on site or unfair advantage in clan world.

[random21]

Ok. Let's move this along. I'm so sick of this conversation.

I'm even sicker that in a case that deemed Top to be guilty they are trying to pull this out acting more innocent than what I imagine they are.

So let's move forward with this review.

I don't even need the original case against TOP to be clarified. It was looked into, and deemed appropriate to replay a game. Does that not make sense to Top? You really think it was because you sat for 2 turns? Inside your clan I can only imagine what is happening.

I believe what happens in TOP sitting abuse case to be genuine. I think they were caught. It was not fully revealed, but it was certainly justified to take action against them.

The cases were not the same. Is the subject about sitting? Yes. But the context is quite different. I'm not going to clarify why. If that is to be done... the administration will do it.

Nothing going on in S&M I think needs to be clarified. But let's go ahead with this.

Top logged in and took turns for people who probably rarely need it. They just conveniently forget.

But as a note for future knowledge let's see how their case goes. Fishy works ----- and gets very busy. Personally I can easily understand not putting time into CC with a job that consumes that much time and attention. But over the years she has made quite a commitment to CC and it's leadership. I can't fathom a case like this being made against her... and in my view does it show desperation on TOP's side? Absolutely. Is it something genuine? Absolutely not. She is often quite active on CC, and if the line Top is going for is that people who are busy and sometimes can't play a CC turn, as they miss 24 hours logging in and can't be sat for because that is breaking sitting rules -Yet they believe all their players can log in, not take their turn, then conveniently be sat for.... as if these are equivocal.. um yea - let's get this ruling in and quick. ...

Personally I can't picture Fishy actually being put as a subject for abuse of any rules on CC. That Top has done so... I think speaks volume. But let's put it into context for them.

What I would like from this case is something very well worded for the future. I want an end to Top complaints. And for them to understand why what they did was crossing the line and what we do was not. So make everything public. Make every game in S&M where a player is sat for public. And make every case for TOP player being sat for public. And let's compare that.

I want to know every time a player in Top is sat in for. Not just what top believe got US remade for. Those innocent little 2 turns they think caused the replay. And let's get all the information out in the open. I've been doing some slight studying of my own. Just read what they say. Freefalling has openly admitted to the fact that he sits on a routine basis for everyone in his clan. He just does it.

I had a turn taken for me the other day. 50 min or so left in a game. I logged in while away at work for 3 days and began a turn around 5 30 am. Had some log in problems and got disconnected don't think I was even able to end the turn. Then I was offline and unable to get online until 8 30 pm. A much longer break than I'm used to. I thought I'd be able to get back on around 6 20. And I did make it back before the turn ended... but justifiably it was a concern. I hadn't logged in for almost 15 hrs. Maybe to help sway Top's concerns a report can be made on me as well.

Logging in regularly and missing turns and having sitters is fine. Not being able to log in at times, and still being active with CC and having sitters... that is not ok.

Now... I have already said that Top original claim doesn't need to be made public for me. But maybe for them it does. And for the site. Because maybe they ACTUALLY think they are being hard done by. Don't understand the remake.

I'm not worried about this. That anyone accuses fishy of abuse, or more so the clan? on her behalf? Like I mean honestly what is this report even saying. She takes her turns, but as she is busy I think it's fair to say she might run risk of missing a turn. And that's not different than any other clan on CC? Top the problem wasn't that you sat in a game. I have played in many clan games where be sat. I also have played in many clan games where I got a bad drop. Do you think we got a remake because of a bad drop? Or bad dice? Like what is the actual thought here? Like actually think through what you are saying.

1) sitting 2) bad drop 3) bad dice 4) i mean I don't even know.. but something where you had an advantage over us


Now think about all the games that our clan has played. And think about the above where we never reported it.

Has our clan been in a game where there was sitting by opposite side... yes, has our clan experienced bad drops before... yes. bad dice? lol um yuppppppp and 4? other things.... huh probably??

Now what percentage of reports has our clan actually put forward against any other clan with above criteria? I mean, hell as far as the actual game goes I've had more heated annoyances in games like KC2 or eurasias but never even occurred to me to be like huh in my kc2 game with a bad drop... my opponents sat... um can I get a remake? Cause... that's not fair. And in eurasia.. um I was winning the whole game, then we had one bad round of bad dice... remake (innocent angel face). Like for you top? is this how you see what is happening? And what is it your ego like we come up against Top and think oh boy better get these reports ready cause we don't stand a chance against these guys without filing a report for things that happen in every other game we play...

Oh wait, except for what you guys got a report for and actually put through against you. Like in any other game I play if I were to report for a bad drop, or sitting or advantage of any kind... in my head that report would get looked at. The sitting wouldn't be deemed an issue. The bad drop doesn't matter it happens. We lose a game to it. We move on. The bad dice? yeah it happens who cares. But against you top ... um that went through. First our clan looked. Josko understood it. But in any case. Some humility please.

I have a tendency to bla bla bla in my posts. Hope you enjoyed. Let's get this ruling in please.

[IcePack]

Please refrain from flames or attacks against people. If you're posting you should be contributing to the evidence or defense of the case.

I'll be contacting S&M, as well as C&A / Admin and reviewing over next couple days.

[BoganGod]

Worst thing here is because of Josko.ri's well documented history of "micro" managing games the case appears more credible because of the inclusion of his name..... Guilt by association is alive and well. Fishy plays well and has been on site for a long time, suggesting that she is a less experienced make up the numbers type player being sat "conveniently" by the more experienced tactical gurus is grasping at straws. If I didn't know better would think the OP was a sexist complainer. Kort had a proud tradition of promoting and retaining strong and gifted players. Including foxglove, loes, and fishydance. Lets settle this quickly, make the ruling, and reasoning behind the ruling public. Might as well for transparencies sake make the previous rulings and reasoning in this little tea cup skirmish public. If you the most august mods would be so kind.

[xroads]

Another point

Original game was made in early January when she had plenty of time, remake was made Jan 22nd, TOP waited until the 28th to fill the game.

She didnt miss her first turn until Feb 6th when her schedule got busy again.

[Donelladan]

Just on the case now.
You are making a report in C&A but apparently you are saying S&M broke the clan sitting rule.
If it's a breach of clan sitting rule, I think you are in the wrong section and you should go to the clan forum or the CD.

Funny thing is, we did exactly that more than 3 weeks ago, but IcePack said it had to be filed here.

Well, I am not C&A nor CD, so apparently I was wrong.

[josko.ri]

In my defense as one of accused, I will reply every point one by one where I have disagreements.

Paul filed a report with KA, we have talked extensively with
clan moderators and opposing team… yet we have gotten nowhere.

So the case was already being reported and cleared, no? So what is the purpose of putting it public if that was already been handled by admins?
I will answer... At the same time while putting this public you announced decision that you are signing out from CCup because you are victims and everyone is against you. I mean this case is not ruled yet so how do you know that you will be victimized in advance, before ruling on this case was made? Obviously, you are making intellectual pressure on every possible instance on moderators to punish us in this case practically blackmailing CD team "If S&M will not be punished, we are out of CCup". That bullying of moderators will not be successful because what fishydance did is not even close similar like what FreeFalling123 did, as will be proved by my further defense arguments.

I was warned and had a game remade for doing a very similar act (account sitting 2 moves in early key rounds of a game).

Act is very different because you sat for players who were earlier that day available to play their turn by themselves but they left it to better player to play. in fishydance case she was not able to log in during entire 24 hours period of her turns due to busy real life circumstances and that is why sittings is for, to cover for players who are NOT available to play given turn by themselves, contrary to your case where players WERE available to play their turn earlier that day.

Game 17163490 — Fishydance along with various sitters —
Gross Abuse USA 2.1 Remake:
Account sitters took 2 of the first 3 (66%) of Fishy's OPENING moves.
We ask that this case is checked into, immediately. We at TOP are asking that
this game be rightfully judged in the clan world as well as in the site sitting rules.

The Clan Sitting Rules state: “Clan members must be
responsible for their own turns.
4. You must not enter clan games if you know in
advance that you will not be able to take the vast majority of your turns.

If you are going to participate in clan games, it
should be you who will actually play in these games.”
 [color=#0000FF]

From your evidence below, we can see that fishydance needed sitting only 2 times during entire January and the Usa 2.1 Remake game started on January 28. Also, her days when she was very busy lasted from February 4 to 14. Before that and after that she needed sitting only rarely when had emergency in hospital ("rarely" means twice per month as shown for January). On January 28 when Usa 2.1 Remake game started, we could not know that 7 days later she will become busy and therefore we could not predict that she wil need sitting at that time. When we realized that she is busy, then we totally excluded her from our RL7 round 6 vs GoN started on February 4 and CL8 round 8 home and away games vs ATN which started on February 11. We have 29 active players and 28 of them participated in the mini wars vs GON (Feb 4) and ATN (Feb 11), only fishydance was excluded. The round before that started on January 28 and at that time she was still not so busy in real life.

To conclude, timeline is like this:

1. In the whole January fishydance needed sitting 2 times, she was very available with only 2 emergency cases.
2. game in question Game 17163490 started on January 28, at that time we could not predict that fishydance will become busy soon.
3. fishydance's busy days lasted from February 4 to 14
4. Fishydance was completely excluded from new games in mini war vs GoN starting February 4 and ATN starting February 11 due to her busy work schedule. Furthermore she was the only active player from our clan being excluded from new games. This shows clearly that S&M takes care when our players were busy to not put them in new games, contrary to what you are accusing us for.
5. After February 14 fishydance's schedule became normal again, so she was put in Game 17215985 which started on February 17.

fishydance & S&M clearly knew she was
having trouble making it to her turns PRIOR to the Remade game even
starting, which means she & S&M both knew in advance that she
would not be able to take the vast majority of her turns.

You are telling lie, she became busy 7 days AFTER he USA 2.1 game started, as can be seen from the evidence above.
 

- Game 17215985 (This game has not yet started -
but fishydance is still in it even though Josko has just said they know
she is still having problems taking her own turns.
- (2017-02-14 10:11:02 - josko.ri: Paul, as
fishydance is busy at this time, then we did not put her in any new Clan
League game vs ATN, to avoid putting player who is quite busy and need
sittings for her. - Game 17163490[/spoiler]
S&M knew she would not be able to take the
"Vast Majority" of turns in her games and specifically in the USA 2.1
Remade Game. Additionally they still know this (Because Josko just said
it) yet they have her entered in yet another game waiting to begin.

I said she was excluded from games vs ATN started February 11, but Game 17215985 started February 17 when she was not so busy anymore. As I said, her very busy days were from February 4 to 14, so here is no reason to be excluded from game which starts February 17 when she was already back on track.

 

Gentlemen, we feel this evidence clearly shows
Gross Sitting Abuse. S&M knew fishydance would not be able to take a
vast majority of her turns and act responsibly according to Siting Rules.

This is lie, as many other your claims. We could not know at January 28 that she will become busy on February 4. When we realized she is very busy then we excluded her from games starting February 4 and February 11. She was again back in action on February 17 when her schedule became normal again so we included her in games again.

[random21]

There is nothing here. Just let the ruling happen.

[IcePack]

No Josko they were asked to make C&A case, as I had said previously weren't going to accept from PM anymore. I know there's been some discussion between Clan & C&A regarding proper procedures moving forward. I'm sure an announcement will come shortly but for now C&A is the place to be making sitting abuse cases

[Keefie]

Blah blah blah we are TOP and everyone hates us because we are good. No, people don't like you because you are loud mouth whiners.

You want to perceive yourself as a victim? Wait till we get done with you, it won't be a perception. You'll be road kill.

Very sadly you won't get the chance. TOP have withdrawn from CC7 (a massive mistake imho)

[josko.ri]

EDITED after Keefie edited his post.