WoT:Mem of Light An Ending

[BuJaber]

I'm not even speaking to the fact of a roleblock, I have no comment and I won't confirm or deny it. Roleblock is a town role as often as it is a mafia role, and it's bullshit that he claimed with almost no provocation so I'm not going to be forced into a claim with him.

Sorry for the double post but I did not see this part. No point forcing someone who refuses to talk. So as promised, Unvote Vote DoomYoshi.

[Metsfanmax]

I'm not even speaking to the fact of a roleblock, I have no comment and I won't confirm or deny it. Roleblock is a town role as often as it is a mafia role, and it's bullshit that he claimed with almost no provocation so I'm not going to be forced into a claim with him.

Sorry for the double post but I did not see this part. No point forcing someone who refuses to talk. So as promised, Unvote Vote DoomYoshi.

This is weak reasoning. DY is correct to refuse to comment at this early stage. As he says, if he could confirm the claim, that wouldn't give us a hint to alignment. If you're pushing for him to comment anyway, despite the fact that it won't improve our situation at all, then it just sounds like scummy rolefishing to me.

[BuJaber]

I'm not even speaking to the fact of a roleblock, I have no comment and I won't confirm or deny it. Roleblock is a town role as often as it is a mafia role, and it's bullshit that he claimed with almost no provocation so I'm not going to be forced into a claim with him.

Sorry for the double post but I did not see this part. No point forcing someone who refuses to talk. So as promised, Unvote Vote DoomYoshi.

This is weak reasoning. DY is correct to refuse to comment at this early stage. As he says, if he could confirm the claim, that wouldn't give us a hint to alignment. If you're pushing for him to comment anyway, despite the fact that it won't improve our situation at all, then it just sounds like scummy rolefishing to me.

Okay fine here me out.
I have convinced myself that both doom and mitch are light. I wanted doom to talk for one of two things: either he convinces me that I'm wrong about him & mitch, OR he gives off more scum vibes that I can use to convince the others.

I am assuming of course that dark is town. Two things together happened that don't make sense unless both are them are light: First doom posts his list, which includes mitch: dark. Then mitch claims he roleblocked doom because of this list.
Let's go through some scenarios:
mitch IS dark and he reads the list and makes the logical conclusion that doom is dark also... he has no reason to fear doom.
mitch IS dark, reads the list thinking dark is scum, worries that doom pegged him, he roleblocks. Why would he then tell us he roleblocked and put it out there if he's worried?
mitch IS dark, thinks doom is light... why would he associate himself with him D2?
mitch is light, knows that doom is not on his team but has some of his buddies pegged, and is worried so he roleblocks.
mitch is light, doesn't know doom's alignment.
mitch is light, doom is light. doom makes a brilliant move to try and appear dark and plant the idea that maybe dark is town early on before we realize it ourselves to earn dark points. Doom naturally puts some buddies of his as dark to confuse us and protect them. Mitch slips up by fake claiming he roleblocked doom.
The last one is easily the most likely. What are the odds that mitch would actually be a roleblocker AND would choose to roleblock Doom of all people?

I don't know.. maybe I missed a few scenarios that popped up in my head, but the way I see it there is nothing else that explains the 2 posts happening the way they did from these 2 players except if both are light.

[madmitch]

@ BuJaber . I do not know why Doom is not backing me up ? unless he has no night moves or he is scum ? I guess I was right blocking him. I also have a great day move that will help us get rid of the light. FOS Doom

[sam_levi_11]

Sorry it's Friday night here and it's a very busy weekend for me, got an open day to sell the house tomorrow so it's hard for me to be on here for long posts this weekend.

That said I started this day suspicious of MatMitch, and I'm still not convinced. I said before that I'm thinking he is more likely scum, but I said DoomYoshi comes across as town. I've changed my mind on that last part, due to his talks of policy lynches and his aggressive style. As someone new I can't claim to know his style but both he and Storr come across as being overly aggressive, the difference is Storr isn't looking to shadily shift attention from the most scummy person in the game, without in any way helping us. FOS Doom.

As for Mandy, he's flipping. Firstly he refuses to claim, and categorically refuses to say he's dark. Then suddenly he's half claiming that he is definitely dark but this seems to be only because he was called out, initially by Hotshot I believe. The only reason I voted for Dakky was because he also flipped claims and was caught out as a liar, so I'm wary of someone else doing a slow reveal and changing information.

Lastly tokle's absense is a main concern, it's been a long time since he posted.

[TimWoodbury]

I'm not even speaking to the fact of a roleblock, I have no comment and I won't confirm or deny it. Roleblock is a town role as often as it is a mafia role, and it's bullshit that he claimed with almost no provocation so I'm not going to be forced into a claim with him.

Sorry for the double post but I did not see this part. No point forcing someone who refuses to talk. So as promised, Unvote Vote DoomYoshi.

This is weak reasoning. DY is correct to refuse to comment at this early stage. As he says, if he could confirm the claim, that wouldn't give us a hint to alignment. If you're pushing for him to comment anyway, despite the fact that it won't improve our situation at all, then it just sounds like scummy rolefishing to me.

Okay fine here me out.
I have convinced myself that both doom and mitch are light. I wanted doom to talk for one of two things: either he convinces me that I'm wrong about him & mitch, OR he gives off more scum vibes that I can use to convince the others.

I am assuming of course that dark is town. Two things together happened that don't make sense unless both are them are light: First doom posts his list, which includes mitch: dark. Then mitch claims he roleblocked doom because of this list.
Let's go through some scenarios:
mitch IS dark and he reads the list and makes the logical conclusion that doom is dark also... he has no reason to fear doom.
mitch IS dark, reads the list thinking dark is scum, worries that doom pegged him, he roleblocks. Why would he then tell us he roleblocked and put it out there if he's worried?
mitch IS dark, thinks doom is light... why would he associate himself with him D2?
mitch is light, knows that doom is not on his team but has some of his buddies pegged, and is worried so he roleblocks.
mitch is light, doesn't know doom's alignment.
mitch is light, doom is light. doom makes a brilliant move to try and appear dark and plant the idea that maybe dark is town early on before we realize it ourselves to earn dark points. Doom naturally puts some buddies of his as dark to confuse us and protect them. Mitch slips up by fake claiming he roleblocked doom.
The last one is easily the most likely. What are the odds that mitch would actually be a roleblocker AND would choose to roleblock Doom of all people?

I don't know.. maybe I missed a few scenarios that popped up in my head, but the way I see it there is nothing else that explains the 2 posts happening the way they did from these 2 players except if both are light.

If you thunk dy and mitch are light why not push mitch as he already has or had the preassure

[TimWoodbury]

Id be willing to do either mitch or doom as like i said yeaterday he kneq from the get go dark was town in this game how did he know unless hes bad.

[Metsfanmax]

I am assuming of course that dark is town. Two things together happened that don't make sense unless both are them are light: First doom posts his list, which includes mitch: dark. Then mitch claims he roleblocked doom because of this list.
Let's go through some scenarios:
mitch IS dark and he reads the list and makes the logical conclusion that doom is dark also... he has no reason to fear doom.
mitch IS dark, reads the list thinking dark is scum, worries that doom pegged him, he roleblocks. Why would he then tell us he roleblocked and put it out there if he's worried?
mitch IS dark, thinks doom is light... why would he associate himself with him D2?
mitch is light, knows that doom is not on his team but has some of his buddies pegged, and is worried so he roleblocks.
mitch is light, doesn't know doom's alignment.
mitch is light, doom is light. doom makes a brilliant move to try and appear dark and plant the idea that maybe dark is town early on before we realize it ourselves to earn dark points. Doom naturally puts some buddies of his as dark to confuse us and protect them. Mitch slips up by fake claiming he roleblocked doom.
The last one is easily the most likely. What are the odds that mitch would actually be a roleblocker AND would choose to roleblock Doom of all people?

To me, mitch being light, thinking that Doom is dark and therefore scum, and roleblocking him, is at least as likely as both of them being light, possibly more likely. Of course your suggestion is possible, but it hinges on both a specific line of reasoning by DY, and it hinges on the already unlikely possibility that DY and mitch are both light (since if dark is town, then any given pair of players is automatically more likely to be dark/light or dark/dark than light/light), and it hinges on mitch making a boneheaded and ostentatious move (not that the latter is totally out of character for mitch, but still, it's a pretty big error, and based on what we know so far it seems likely to me that the light can talk to each other, so DY could have warned mitch not to do that).

As for the odds of mitch being roleblocker, and choosing to roleblock Doom, those two things don't really mean anything. You could have made the same argument if mitch claimed doctor and said that he chose to save Doom of all people. In absolute terms, from the start of the game, any particular pairing of roles and actions is unlikely.

[rishaed]

Vote Count:

Mandalorian (1) - Hotshot
Samlevi (1) - DoomYoshi
madmitch (1) - Storrzerg
DoomYoshi (1) - BuJaber

With 19 alive it takes 10 to lynch.

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

Pretty sure i am voting Mandy.

To avoid doubt

Vote Mandy

[madmitch]

I am following Wing, also he is one of my targets, VOTE MANDY LAUGH NOW

[mandalorian2298]

OK, to short-circuit this nonsense, I'll claim my character (but not my power because it would make me less effective).

I am "Grendal" or, more precisely, Graendal AKA Kamarile Maradim Nindar. I am "beautifully full figured with elaborately curled red-gold hair." Yeah.

[BuJaber]

To me, mitch being light, thinking that Doom is dark and therefore scum, and roleblocking him, is at least as likely as both of them being light, possibly more likely. Of course your suggestion is possible, but it hinges on both a specific line of reasoning by DY, and it hinges on the already unlikely possibility that DY and mitch are both light (since if dark is town, then any given pair of players is automatically more likely to be dark/light or dark/dark than light/light), and it hinges on mitch making a boneheaded and ostentatious move (not that the latter is totally out of character for mitch, but still, it's a pretty big error, and based on what we know so far it seems likely to me that the light can talk to each other, so DY could have warned mitch not to do that).

As for the odds of mitch being roleblocker, and choosing to roleblock Doom, those two things don't really mean anything. You could have made the same argument if mitch claimed doctor and said that he chose to save Doom of all people. In absolute terms, from the start of the game, any particular pairing of roles and actions is unlikely.

Hmm.. Okay I accept that reasoning. Perhaps I got a bit too excited with my idea and fell in a mental loop.
It appears to be between mandy, mitch, and possibly Tokle today.
With regards to mandy's last post: In the short time that I've been playing here I've joined all available games and learnt a great deal.. A half-claim like that has never as far as I recall been regarded positively. Either the person half-claiming gets pressurized into fully claiming or they get lynched. Yes, sometimes they are town themselves, but Mandy you just upstaged mitch. (particularly with that description of your chracter... would've upstaged anyone I reckon )

BTW he directly quoted from the wiki article.. Would rish's PM really include a direct quote? Or is it more likely that mandy googled a fake claim?

Unvote Vote Mandy

FOS mitch, doom, tokle because we will undoubtedly get back to them.

[Metsfanmax]

I'll vote mandy too, in order to force a full claim. mandy's story just simply doesn't make sense; he's specifically trying to take credit for having started the game going after dark players, which wouldn't make any sense at all if he was dark, yet he's now claiming a dark allegiance. So I'm guessing third party or something, though Light is possible. At any rate, he clearly seems to be lying about something.

[mandalorian2298]

With regards to mandy's last post: In the short time that I've been playing here I've joined all available games and learnt a great deal.. A half-claim like that has never as far as I recall been regarded positively. Either the person half-claiming gets pressurized into fully claiming or they get lynched. Yes, sometimes they are town themselves, but Mandy you just upstaged mitch. (particularly with that description of your chracter... would've upstaged anyone I reckon )

BTW he directly quoted from the wiki article.. Would rish's PM really include a direct quote? Or is it more likely that mandy googled a fake claim?

Unvote Vote Mandy

FOS mitch, doom, tokle because we will undoubtedly get back to them.

No he wouldn't, nor would I quote Rish's PM (save for the way he misspelled Graendal).

I claimed a major Dark role. If I wanted to do a fake claim, I would could have just said "I'm a Trolloc, too" like Wing did. That's what a fake claim looks like.

A half-claim like that has never as far as I recall been regarded positively.

What half-claim? I claimed a major Dark character. If I'm lying, the real Graendal should be quickly make herself known with a counter-claim. That's the point of the claim. The point is not give everyone needless info about your power.

FOS BuJaber and Mets for knowingly voting a major Dark charcter who hasn't been counter-claimed.

[madmitch]

@ Nice pick,but I still believe you are lying,according to what I read in this book graendal is now an old hag named Hessalam not Kamarile Ninder. N ice try . Also no one counter claimed my role either so that doesn't prove who you say you are.

[DoomYoshi]

I'm not even speaking to the fact of a roleblock, I have no comment and I won't confirm or deny it. Roleblock is a town role as often as it is a mafia role, and it's bullshit that he claimed with almost no provocation so I'm not going to be forced into a claim with him.

Sorry for the double post but I did not see this part. No point forcing someone who refuses to talk. So as promised, Unvote Vote DoomYoshi.

This is weak reasoning. DY is correct to refuse to comment at this early stage. As he says, if he could confirm the claim, that wouldn't give us a hint to alignment. If you're pushing for him to comment anyway, despite the fact that it won't improve our situation at all, then it just sounds like scummy rolefishing to me.

Okay fine here me out.
I have convinced myself that both doom and mitch are light. I wanted doom to talk for one of two things: either he convinces me that I'm wrong about him & mitch, OR he gives off more scum vibes that I can use to convince the others.

I am assuming of course that dark is town. Two things together happened that don't make sense unless both are them are light: First doom posts his list, which includes mitch: dark. Then mitch claims he roleblocked doom because of this list.
Let's go through some scenarios:
mitch IS dark and he reads the list and makes the logical conclusion that doom is dark also... he has no reason to fear doom.
mitch IS dark, reads the list thinking dark is scum, worries that doom pegged him, he roleblocks. Why would he then tell us he roleblocked and put it out there if he's worried?
mitch IS dark, thinks doom is light... why would he associate himself with him D2?
mitch is light, knows that doom is not on his team but has some of his buddies pegged, and is worried so he roleblocks.
mitch is light, doesn't know doom's alignment.
mitch is light, doom is light. doom makes a brilliant move to try and appear dark and plant the idea that maybe dark is town early on before we realize it ourselves to earn dark points. Doom naturally puts some buddies of his as dark to confuse us and protect them. Mitch slips up by fake claiming he roleblocked doom.
The last one is easily the most likely. What are the odds that mitch would actually be a roleblocker AND would choose to roleblock Doom of all people?

I don't know.. maybe I missed a few scenarios that popped up in my head, but the way I see it there is nothing else that explains the 2 posts happening the way they did from these 2 players except if both are light.

You are assuming mitch is a rational player. The likeliest possibility is Mitch is dark/light, randomly picks a target, probably me because the day ended and I still had unanswered questions.

[BuJaber]

I claimed a major Dark role. If I wanted to do a fake claim, I would could have just said "I'm a Trolloc, too" like Wing did. That's what a fake claim looks like.

Actually you just claimed a character name. A character that yes, in the series has a high rank within the dark forces, but as far as the mafia game is concerned, it is simply a name. Unless someone else is Graendal nobody has any way of knowing for sure that rish even included Graendal when he assigned roles. You also hinted at having some power you could help dark with. You know what I meant by half-claim. If you want to wait until L-2 that's fine, I'll wait. But don't pretend you gave us enough until you tell us what your role is. The difference between you and everyone else who hasn't claimed is that you gave us something of your own free will, without being forced to, but it is merely a tease. And I for one now want more because that post by itself isn't enough for me to trust that you're on my side.

[TimWoodbury]

OK, to short-circuit this nonsense, I'll claim my character (but not my power because it would make me less effective).

I am "Grendal" or, more precisely, Graendal AKA Kamarile Maradim Nindar. I am "beautifully full figured with elaborately curled red-gold hair." Yeah.

not sure bout anyone else but i didnt get nearly as much info about my character, simly just a name, im thinking you googled your character and why else google your character then you needed a fke claim

vote mandy

[TimWoodbury]

What half-claim? I claimed a major Dark character. If I'm lying, the real Graendal should be quickly make herself known with a counter-claim. That's the point of the claim. The point is not give everyone needless info about your power.

if the real one counter claims light will know to kill said important person in the night.

[Metsfanmax]

nor would I quote Rish's PM (save for the way he misspelled Graendal).

Admittedly, the spelling mistake sounds a lot like Rish

I claimed a major Dark role. If I wanted to do a fake claim, I would could have just said "I'm a Trolloc, too" like Wing did. That's what a fake claim looks like.

Or, a fake claim looks like one of thirteen servants of the head bad guy in a game with only 20 players. The lack of a counter-claim provides a negligible amount of evidence.

What half-claim?

Claiming a character and not a role.

The point is not give everyone needless info about your power.

It's not needless, we're telling you that we're trying to lynch you unless you provide it.

FOS BuJaber and Mets for knowingly voting a major Dark charcter who hasn't been counter-claimed.

Normally I ignore OMGUS fluff but I do find it interesting that mandy failed to respond to my point about why he's trying to take credit for going after Dark characters.

[mandalorian2298]

What half-claim?

Claiming a character and not a role.

I wasn't given a role. I was given a name (misspelled), some fluff, a power and a WC.

Have you been given a role?

The point is not give everyone needless info about your power.

It's not needless, we're telling you that we're trying to lynch you unless you provide it.

And I'm telling you that I'm not going to give you anything more. I have given you enough information for any intelligent Dark player to know that I'm Dark. As for those other players :

if the real one counter claims light will know to kill said important person in the night.

...they are operating on such high level of logic that I find myself both unable and, frankly, unwilling giving them a Logic 101 lecture or even to ask them what is the point of asking for a role-claim without the possibility of a counter claim.

FOS BuJaber and Mets for knowingly voting a major Dark charcter who hasn't been counter-claimed.

Normally I ignore OMGUS fluff but I do find it interesting that mandy failed to respond to my point about why he's trying to take credit for going after Dark characters.

I explained that. Go and re-read.

This is really starting to remind me of that War on Terror game, except those players were sSurvivors who voted me because why not. This time it seems like I'm seriously going to be lynched by my own team, after having claimed a major role, indeed, because I claimed it.

Meanwhile, Mitch (bandwagoning aside) admits that his role claim is fake...

@ Nice pick,but I still believe you are lying,according to what I read in this book graendal is now an old hag named Hessalam not Kamarile Ninder. N ice try . Also no one counter claimed my role either so that doesn't prove who you say you are.

and no one notices.

The more I think about it, the more it seems to me like BuJaber and Light deserve to take this game. I'll re-read once more and post one final pre-lynch post so, if you're Light, hammer me swiftly.

[mandalorian2298]

What half-claim?

Claiming a character and not a role.

I wasn't given a role. I was given a name (misspelled), some fluff, a power and a WC.

Have you been given a role?

The point is not give everyone needless info about your power.

It's not needless, we're telling you that we're trying to lynch you unless you provide it.

And I'm telling you that I'm not going to give you anything more. I have given you enough information for any intelligent Dark player to know that I'm Dark. As for those other players :

if the real one counter claims light will know to kill said important person in the night.

...they are operating on such high level of logic that I find myself both unable and, frankly, unwilling giving them a Logic 101 lecture or even to ask them what is the point of asking for a role-claim without the possibility of a counter claim.

FOS BuJaber and Mets for knowingly voting a major Dark charcter who hasn't been counter-claimed.

Normally I ignore OMGUS fluff but I do find it interesting that mandy failed to respond to my point about why he's trying to take credit for going after Dark characters.

I explained that. Go and re-read.

This is really starting to remind me of that War on Terror game, except those players were sSurvivors who voted me because why not. This time it seems like I'm seriously going to be lynched by my own team, after having claimed a major role, indeed, because I claimed it.

Meanwhile, Mitch (bandwagoning aside) admits that his role claim is fake...

@ Nice pick,but I still believe you are lying,according to what I read in this book graendal is now an old hag named Hessalam not Kamarile Ninder. N ice try . Also no one counter claimed my role either so that doesn't prove who you say you are.

and no one notices.

The more I think about it, the more it seems to me like BuJaber and Light deserve to take this game. I'll re-read once more and post one final pre-lynch post so, if you're Light, hammer me swiftly.

EBWOP

[aage]

nobody has any way of knowing for sure that rish even included Graendal when he assigned roles.

Good job, you found the reason why flavour claims are sucky!

The case on Mandy is weaksauce though, the people adding their votes are just looking for him to fullclaim. The main argument against him is about his behaviour during D1 when nobody seemed to know who was town.

@ Nice pick,but I still believe you are lying,according to what I read in this book graendal is now an old hag named Hessalam not Kamarile Ninder. N ice try . Also no one counter claimed my role either so that doesn't prove who you say you are.

Mitch is saying here that nobody counterclaimed his own role claim, and concludes from this that unopposed role claims can't be trusted. Slip?


fp by Mandy who noticed the same.

[aage]

BTW he directly quoted from the wiki article.. Would rish's PM really include a direct quote? Or is it more likely that mandy googled a fake claim?

Presumably that did come from wiki, role PM's don't usually include a physical description... It's equally likely that he googled his own role to figure out what the hell he was D1. Argument isn't valid.

I'll vote mandy too, in order to force a full claim. mandy's story just simply doesn't make sense; he's specifically trying to take credit for having started the game going after dark players, which wouldn't make any sense at all if he was dark, yet he's now claiming a dark allegiance. So I'm guessing third party or something, though Light is possible. At any rate, he clearly seems to be lying about something.

FoS mets for this post, honestly this smells like wilful misreading of Mandy's posts. Mandy explained his controversial behaviour here:

Having received a role of this nature, I am pretty sure that I would be then able to deduce that a) I was scum and b) Light is scum; in which case I surely would have not begun the game with "Kill dakky and all the forces of darkness!!!" paladin-like zealotism.

Justifying your vote with flavour wifom in a non standard game is incredibly scummy.