SUCCESS - (often comes with negative side effects)

[PaulatPeace]

When MagnusGreeol, narutoserigala and I got together and decided to create The Omega Pantheon, we knew we would have many challenges ahead of us. None of us had ever started a clan or were in any way familiar with the administrative roles & responsibilities that come along with Clan Leadership. We knew there were long established clans out there that were well seasoned in battle. These would present us with an arduous task if we were to hope to be the best of the best someday. Factor in the clans that have evolved from a merging of already successful clans...and the odds of beating them at all seemed almost impossible. Beating even one of them was a daunting challenge...but beating 2 that had become 1.....well that did appear to many to be a dream that could never truly be realized.

But we were not your ordinary dreamers...and the huge the obstacles ahead of us only made us more determined to pursue our goals! We knew there would be those clans that resented us for being the newcomer on the clan scene and daring to think we could hang with them. We knew if we did beat anyone, they might be very pissed off that we had the audacity to actually be proud of our accomplishment ....and resent us even more. We knew that inspiring our own players and cheering them on to success might be taken the wrong way, rather than in the positive light it was intended. We even knew we would be subjected to some less than friendly comments and even a few disparaging remarks. But I will tell you truthfully...I did not expect the ugliness and vindictive rhetoric that has come from the mouths of several individuals.

Some examples for reference:

"but I'd love to ****over some little ****s in the process, y'know like the lot over at TOP. I want Paul's skype. if I get him on skype he goes offline. CC gets a little better" - iAmCaffeine

"you should create a second account, join their clan, get his skype" - BGtheBrain

"TOP leaders (or perhaps just one) sinking to new levels of cowardice, underhand tactics, and generally pathetic behaviour. Disgusts me. Vermin." - iAmCaffeine

"I'm not looking forward to playing TOP though; I don't think I've seen anyone whine so much. It's pathetic." - iAmCaffeine

"Taking pride in a handful of players who direct stripers every game is amusing." - iAmCaffaine

"You have some good players yes, and some cheaters" - iAmCaffeine

"Your a Fake and a Bullshitter. People SEE right through you like glass, as your a ass." - jltile1

These remarks are unfortunate and reflect upon the character of the individual expressing them....still it is a shame that to be successful, one must endure these types of insults and filth.

To date our Clan has defeated every single opponent we have met on the battlefield .....
a total of 14 clans, and hope to be successful in our current war against FOED. We have challenged other top 10 clans (including the top 3) to wars, but these challenges have yet to be accepted. We have debuted in the F400 Clan Rankings at # 5 and have currently advanced to the # 4 position. What has this success gotten us.......hate-filled remarks and messages! Unfounded accusations and slander!

I don't know if other clans have been subjected to these types of mean-spirited attacks and unsportsmanlike conduct ..... but I would have hoped Clan Leaders would wish to represent their clans with dignity and respect, rather than stoop to insults and snide remarks. Many members of other clans have been courteous and even complimentary in their comments towards TOP. I guess success must necessarily come with some negative side effects from a few bad apples.......it is just sad & unfortunate when it does.

PaulatPeace

[betiko]

you do realize that when 2 clans merge it's because they got too weak and have to do something, or they will just disapear, with many key people on break or retired right?
There isn't really any clan that merged that became tougher than what they were at their best.

there are lots of cycles like everywhere, once you've won big stuff you don't have the same motivation to continue.

There is a lot of fresh air in your clan and it brings a lot of fresh air to the clan world... but stop talking like you invented the wheel. You're not the first nor the last making a great start.

What exactly do you expect from this post? It's either completely stupid or trolling.

FYI, if you managed to climb so high and so fast in the F400, it's because you guys started from 0. This is like starting an new account on CC, beating low rankers gives you a lot of points; but at some point beating top clans doesn't give you much points.

[Donelladan]

I've no idea why you speak about merger in your 1st paragraph. What are you speaking about there ?

We knew there would be those clans that resented us for being the newcomer on the clan scene and daring to think we could hang with them. We knew if we did beat anyone, they might be very pissed off that we had the audacity to actually be proud of our accomplishment

This isn't true. Probably 99% of the clans players are happy to see newcomers. We all want to have more opponents and worthy opponents. Maybe some people might be pissed off that you beat them, but I don't see think it's often the case. People are very probably more pissed off by your unusual communication, not because you beat them. Also it might seems sometimes that you are bragging, this ofc might pissed off people.

Especially since you didn't accomplish much yet ( sorry but that's true). Winning the CL7 2nd div is an achievement, that's ok, but it's not like top clans are impressed by that achievement. You are a new interesting clan, and your current result might be showing that you will take your place in the top clans and stay there.
But you should know many new clans in the past also have risen very far to the top ( LHDD and ATL come to my mind there, rising in the top clans, but afterwards they quickly went out of top 10 and ; and speaking of LHDD, after our quick rise at our start, it took us a long time, years, to climb up again in the top clans.
So maybe TOP will really stay there, but being top 4 after a few wars isn't enough to be called a success. I said few wars, because you didn't beat 14 clans as you said, the CL matchs aren't wars, they are skirmishes, they do not really count. So far you have beaten HH and TNC, and that's all, that's how people perceive your clan. At least that's how I do and that's how I believe most "old" clan players do perceive your clan.

Which is why, I have to disagree with that :

still it is a shame that to be successful, one must endure these types of insults and filth.

The insults and filth are not related to your "success".

And, note that you are not the only one to have difficulties with iAmCaffeine and jltile1. Nothing surprising there.

[rockfist]

To quote Al Davis "just win baby."

[IcePack]

Donelladan pretty much nailed it.

[Keefie]

Paul mate, I know the context in which a couple of those above comments were made, most of them I don't. I will echo what Don has said above in that I doubt if any of them are said because of your clans success to date. As already mentioned quite a few clans have made meteoric rises to the top and then have fallen away. PACK, ATL, LHDD, FALLEN all spring to mind. At this stage of your clans development it will only take 1 bad result to see you fall quite a few places in the rankings.

Oh, looking at the CL7 SL table, I notice that you do have a '1' in the loss column. Can't think who inflicted that on you guys but strange you didn't mention it

[PaulatPeace]

Ok Boys,

Lost of comments and questions. I do like to give people the respect of answering their remarks, so I will try to address them individually. This does not of course mean that you will agree with me...but hopefully you will understand what I meant and where I'm coming from.

First, you must understand as I said previously, I am rather new to the clan world. There is history and past experiences I have not been a part of. There are things which I do not fully appreciate as much as someone who has been here longer. This does not however mean what I say is invalid or without merit. Basic logic and common sense also dictate some reasonable conclusions. I would simply ask of those with a reasonable and open mind to try to see things from another perspective other than the one your are biased towards.

I've no idea why you speak about merger in your 1st paragraph. What are you speaking about there ?
I spoke of this in an effort to partially describe the daunting task of competing against clans who were strong contenders by themselves...but then felt they needed even more of an edge to compete....so decided to merge with another already successful clan to create a "superpower". TOP is not only new....but we are also NOT a hybrid of a merger by 2 already established clans. I was attempting to impart to others the 'overwhelming' aspect of the challenge that faced us as a new clan.

We knew there would be those clans that resented us for being the newcomer on the clan scene and daring to think we could hang with them. We knew if we did beat anyone, they might be very pissed off that we had the audacity to actually be proud of our accomplishment

This isn't true. Probably 99% of the clans players are happy to see newcomers. We all want to have more opponents and worthy opponents. Maybe some people might be pissed off that you beat them, but I don't see think it's often the case. Kindly note that I dd not say All clans or [color=#0000BF]Most clans! I was and am referring to 'those clans' whose leaders have expressed the negative sentiments I quoted in my message. These clans are and have been top rated clans. There are apparently at least 2 - 3 of them quoted here....so it is more than just 1.[/color]

People are very probably more pissed off by your unusual communication, not because you beat them. Also it might seems sometimes that you are bragging, this ofc might pissed off people. I apologize if my 'unusual communication' offends anyone. I try to be candid and factual while remaining calm and objective. If this 'pisses anyone off'....I am sorry. I can understand how it may appear 'unusual' to those who express themselves otherwise. I have witnessed on many occasions others talking about the achievements of their clans. It occurs so often, it appeared to be an accepted standard of expression. If stating facts in an effort to explain my case seems to others as 'bragging'....I am sorry they see it that way.

Especially since you didn't accomplish much yet ( sorry but that's true). Winning the CL7 2nd div is an achievement, that's ok, but it's not like top clans are impressed by that achievement. You are a new interesting clan, and your current result might be showing that you will take your place in the top clans and stay there. I am not asking anyone to be 'impressed'. I am simply stating that we haven't been beaten yet and have faced more than a couple opponents. I do feel that is something to be proud of. Perhaps when we beat the 'top clans'.....they will think so also!

But you should know many new clans in the past also have risen very far to the top ( LHDD and ATL come to my mind there, rising in the top clans, but afterwards they quickly went out of top 10 and ; and speaking of LHDD, after our quick rise at our start, it took us a long time, years, to climb up again in the top clans.
So maybe TOP will really stay there, but being top 4 after a few wars isn't enough to be called a success. I said few wars, because you didn't beat 14 clans as you said, the CL matchs aren't wars, they are skirmishes, they do not really count. I appreciate your opinion. I however do view every battle we engage in as one that 'counts'. You are entitled to your perspective, but to me when you have faced 14 other clans (some who have been ranked rather high) and are able to be victorious in a majority of the 16 games you played against ALL of them.........this does 'count' as more than 'enough' to deserve the definition of 'success'.

So far you have beaten HH and TNC, and that's all, that's how people perceive your clan. At least that's how I do and that's how I believe most "old" clan players do perceive your clan. You and others are welcome to perceive things however you wish.

Which is why, I have to disagree with that :

still it is a shame that to be successful, one must endure these types of insults and filth.

The insults and filth are not related to your "success". I respectfully disagree with you here. The 'insults and filth' references I quoted came from clan leaders who were intimidated by us and were ultimately defeated. It was and is our 'success' that upsets them, because they can no longer hold on to the illusion they once deluded themselves with.

And, note that you are not the only one to have difficulties with iAmCaffeine and jltile1. Nothing surprising there. I suspected this, but I saw very few individuals admonishing them for their crude remarks. They seem very adept at kissing up to admins and those in power. I am sorry others have had difficulties with them also.

you do realize that when 2 clans merge it's because they got too weak and have to do something, or they will just disapear, with many key people on break or retired right?
There isn't really any clan that merged that became tougher than what they were at their best. I will defer to your experience in the clan world on this one. I will simply say that I saw clans who were Very Strong merge with other clans who were also Strong in what appeared to be an effort to compete. These clans were already Strong.....but rather than try to attract quality players into their ranks........it was easier and more convenient to 'merge' with another Strong clan. Call it what you wish...to me it looked like Russia and China said to themselves "Hey....we will never beat the USA unless we join forces!"

there are lots of cycles like everywhere, once you've won big stuff you don't have the same motivation to continue. That is a shame!

There is a lot of fresh air in your clan and it brings a lot of fresh air to the clan world... but stop talking like you invented the wheel. You're not the first nor the last making a great start. I didn't say we invented the wheel.....we just want to improve on it! I have clearly stated we are new to this whole process and admittedly have much to learn....but perhaps the 'fresh air we bring to the clan world' can shake off some of the cobwebs and shed some light upon some stagnant hierarchical bureaucracy that appears to currently exist.

What exactly do you expect from this post? It's either completely stupid or trolling. Thank you once more for your kind and sensitive remarks! You are quite eloquent at times my friend. What I expected was to bring some of the 'fresh air' you spoke of to a situation that appears to be tolerated and even condoned by many in the clan world. If I can post a factual critique of the CDs and Admins which results in my remarks being deleted and locked down.............but abusive, ugly, mean-spirited language such as the quotes I mentioned are allowed to remain with no consequence.......then something is very wrong paradise my friend!

FYI, if you managed to climb so high and so fast in the F400, it's because you guys started from 0. This is like starting an new account on CC, beating low rankers gives you a lot of points; but at some point beating top clans doesn't give you much points. Actually...it was suggested to us by a seasoned veteran and respected Clan leader that we start out by engaging mid-level clans such as TNC & HH. We were advised that battling lower-ranked clans would not help us much in climbing up the ladder, so we did not accept any challenge from them. I am sorry you feel it prudent to relegate quality clans such as HH & TNC to the category of 'low rankers'. I hope they are not offended at this classification.

[Keefie]

HH - Low Rankers - Hmmmmmppppppphhhhhhh we had 1000 pts once.

Walks away shaking his head

Guess I know my place.



ps: Paul, you're still claiming to be unbeaten, but you're not

[BGtheBrain]

*****

[betiko]

my advise: change the way you communicate. The day you'll understand your results have nothing to do with the way people reply to your posts... And that you are being an annoying attention whore to most... at least that's the way you are perceived (and this whole thread reflects it once again.... no one starts a thread in the clan forum about themselvs, I don't know how many you've started already..)

[Donelladan]

Well, Paul, I am not sure what to say to you here.
You said, as per title, that your succes come with negative side effects.
I told you success isn't the case, and you reply me it is.

I respectfully disagree with you here. The 'insults and filth' references I quoted came from clan leaders who were intimidated by us and were ultimately defeated. It was and is our 'success' that upsets them, because they can no longer hold on to the illusion they once deluded themselves with.

Honestly, iAmCaffeine was having a beef having you way before your defeated ATN, therefore no you can't argue that it's because you defeated them.
I read the clan forum enough to know that.


Please note, I am not in any case annoyed by your way of posting.
I actually like you, and I would like to face you in a clan war.
But you are in the wrong when you thinking those attacks are something common in clan world ( and are due because of you "success"). Unfortunately, I think it's personal and it's against you.
But after all, it's quite normal that there is some disagreements in a large group of people. There is also a few individuality I can't stand in the clan world. Good for me those are less vocal people so it's less visible.

[rockfist]

As a member of TOFU I can say that we've been around a long time (before me) and will be around for a very long time (after I am gone). We compete against the very best in the clan world and will continue to do so (yup we don't always win, but that's the thing-no one always wins at the very sharp end of the clan world). If/when you join that group at the sharp end we look forward to playing you (and you may even beat us then, but we aren't going away).

Its a good achievement winning CL7 Div 2. You should be proud of that. But it is D2. When you are competitive in D1 or in CC you will earn your place in the eyes of many of the top clans, as a top clan. Until then I'll requote Al Davis "just win baby."

[IcePack]

The only other thought I'll add to the conversation is this, success for each clan is individually measured. There are clans who don't ever want or plan to compete at the highest levels.
To those clans, winning Second Division would be a huge measure of success and a great thing to celebrate (and it's nothing to scoff at).
I think what some of the people are trying to get at, is if you profess to be one of the best, and are heading in that direction, and plan to compete at the highest levels, success has a different bar. Second Division at that level is nice, but it does not define a top level clan.

Leagues aren't generally viewed as wars either as I think don indicated, HH and TNC are a good start for wars, and the FOED war is an excellent step in the right direction. But again, winning 12 clans (in leagues) is much different then the success for example maybe PACK had achieved, where they won 12(?) ish wars in a row and several top level clans within that group. Or the success KORT or TOFU have established over the years most other clans only dream of.

So, to everyone stating what is or isn't success - there is perspective needed. What are the goals, where are they going, and where do they want to be / compared to are all very important to the conversation.

For example, FALL when we were established knew we wanted to compete in a Top 10 position. It's how we defined success the first year. We achieved it and held it long term. The next level of success for us was a Top 5 position, and working towards the two major titles (CCup and CLeague).

We have achieved one of those titles, and came a few games short of being only the 2nd clan to take CC and CL in the same year. We didn't make it tho, but in the process we earned another form of success (#1 rank).

Now it's up to us to redefine what our success will look like. Is it rank, is it CC6, is it CL8, is it all the above or both? That remains to be seen.

[rockfist]

We have achieved one of those titles, and came a few games short of being only the 2nd clan to take CC and CL in the same year. We didn't make it tho, but in the process we earned another form of success (#1 rank).

TOFU can relate to this.

And Paula this is why I say no one always wins at the sharp end. We also came within two games of achieving this within the last year. Now we are starting from nothing, but we are still alive in CC. For now only LHDD could achieve this goal. If another clan other than LHDD wins CC (and I suspect this will happen not because LHDD isn't very good, but there are so many good clans still competing, its hard to win) only that clan will be able to achieve it.

[BIG_John]

I understand the top clans do not consider CL7 a big win for a team wanting to compete at the top of the rankings but for TOP to win the first clan league that we have played in is a great thing! I understand the premier division is where the hardcore battling is at but you have to realize we have not had the opportunity to compete there yet. Now we will get that chance in CL8 and look forward to the great battles against the best of the best!

[betiko]

I understand the top clans do not consider CL7 a big win for a team wanting to compete at the top of the rankings but for TOP to win the first clan league that we have played in is a great thing! I understand the premier division is where the hardcore battling is at but you have to realize we have not had the opportunity to compete there yet. Now we will get that chance in CL8 and look forward to the great battles against the best of the best!

I do consider winning the CL7 a great achievement... sorry to disapoint you but we are the ones who won it
we won the CL6 second division last year (but on top of that we won the random cup, the assassin clan challenge, and we lost 31-30 in the CC5 semi finals against FALL that won the title), the CL7 fisrt division this year and yet we aren't creating threads about success and how people hate us cause we are so good!

[Keefie]

Paul seems to have gone a bit quiet. I'd like to know his reasons for creating this thread, what was he hoping to achieve ?

[PaulatPeace]

My apologies to everyone for not getting back to you as expeditiously as I would have liked. I have been a bit overwhelmed latey with a number of real life and CC matters. I feel this is an important discussion. I also feel some may be missing the point while a couple have no interest in even trying to see it. I will also apologize for whatever it is about my method of communication that bothers some of you. Perhaps if I used profanity more often (and I certainly can hang with the best of you), or called people names such as "attention whore" or "Vermin" or "Bullshitter" it would be more palatable and not offend so many.

I will again endeavor to answer your questions and remarks below. I may likely not be doing so as extensively in the future in this thread, as the horse may be close to dying, and I do not wish to beat him.

Paul seems to have gone a bit quiet. I'd like to know his reasons for creating this thread, what was he hoping to achieve ?

I will try to answer other questions below Keith which may help in providing a explanation...but in a nutshell this is the reason I created this thread: To bring to everyone's attention the incongruities & inequities in the way various posts and forms of expression are received and handled here in the CC Clan world. I try not to use attacks in any form, or vulgarity or disparaging remarks about others...unless I am defending my clan or myself against them first being made against us. As I have previously said, a post of mine was DELETED and the entire thread LOCKED DOWN in the CL7 because I calmly and factually criticized the CDs and TOs for the way they handled things. My remarks were not vulgar or obnoxious and were not directed at Mr. Coffee or anyone else that had been been making ugly remarks towards TOP & myself. Yet.....there are constantly ugly, abusive, mean-spirited remarks and even untrue accusations and name calling that is allowed to remain unchecked by the TOs & CDs on a regular basis. No one seems to be bothered by them (at least not the people who continually post in these threads). But criticize the established hierarchy and those in authority....and your post is deleted and locked down. Does this not bother anyone else?

I pointed out our success so far because I sincerely believe our mere presence and gradual success was a large part of the motivation for many of these ugly remarks. I believe that some of the established clans were indeed threatened by or success and also at the prospect of it continuing. If you don't see or agree with this...that is ok. It is however what I see and why I began the thread mentioning our success so far. Some have chosen to focus on or even become offended at this. It is a fact that our success up to this point does not compare to the long established successes of many of the top clans and even those that no longer exist. That is understood and obvious to everyone! Our humble success to date is something we are proud of and will build on. If my mentioning it to substantiate and support the main point of my post offends anyone, I am sorry you did not see what I was attempting to point out.

As a member of TOFU I can say that we've been around a long time (before me) and will be around for a very long time (after I am gone). We compete against the very best in the clan world and will continue to do so (yup we don't always win, but that's the thing-no one always wins at the very sharp end of the clan world). If/when you join that group at the sharp end we look forward to playing you (and you may even beat us then, but we aren't going away).

Its a good achievement winning CL7 Div 2. You should be proud of that. But it is D2. When you are competitive in D1 or in CC you will earn your place in the eyes of many of the top clans, as a top clan. Until then I'll requote Al Davis "just win baby."

I agree completely rockfist! I also agree about TOFU's success. I personally consider your clan the very best in CC at this time! I have never said we are better than the established top clans. I am simply saying WE ARE HERE clan world, we are here to win & we believe we can.....in either division. That is not bragging....it is confidence! Thank you for you constructive remarks!

Well, Paul, I am not sure what to say to you here.
You said, as per title, that your succes come with negative side effects.
I told you success isn't the case, and you reply me it is.

I respectfully disagree with you here. The 'insults and filth' references I quoted came from clan leaders who were intimidated by us and were ultimately defeated. It was and is our 'success' that upsets them, because they can no longer hold on to the illusion they once deluded themselves with.

Honestly, iAmCaffeine was having a beef having you way before your defeated ATN, therefore no you can't argue that it's because you defeated them.
I read the clan forum enough to know that. Yes...this is true. But his beef with us began long before even the CL7. If you look at the posts he made in our wars with HH and TNC.....you will see clearly he was intimidated by TOP and when he realized our legitimate threat to ATN's success.............he was even more intimidated...and evidenced by further negative posts.


Please note, I am not in any case annoyed by your way of posting.
I actually like you, and I would like to face you in a clan war.
But you are in the wrong when you thinking those attacks are something common in clan world ( and are due because of you "success"). Unfortunately, I think it's personal and it's against you. If it's just "personal against me....how would you explain the negative posts against MagnusGreeol, narutoserigala, Big_John, Freefalling123 and others in TOP? I have been the one who has been most vocal in these threads...so I can understand why you might think it is personal against me. It is personal against TOP! I like and respect you also my friend and am happy to agree to disagree with you.
But after all, it's quite normal that there is some disagreements in a large group of people. There is also a few individuality I can't stand in the clan world. Good for me those are less vocal people so it's less visible.

my advise: change the way you communicate. The day you'll understand your results have nothing to do with the way people reply to your posts... And that you are being an annoying attention whore to most... at least that's the way you are perceived (and this whole thread reflects it once again.... no one starts a thread in the clan forum about themselvs, I don't know how many you've started already..)

My threads are not about Myself. I am sorry you have this misconception. I would also wager that if you looked at the # of posts I made and compared them to the # you make regularly....you would win that competition by a landslide! May I also compliment you again on your eloquent use of the English language. "annoying attention whore" is very special!

I understand the top clans do not consider CL7 a big win for a team wanting to compete at the top of the rankings but for TOP to win the first clan league that we have played in is a great thing! I understand the premier division is where the hardcore battling is at but you have to realize we have not had the opportunity to compete there yet. Now we will get that chance in CL8 and look forward to the great battles against the best of the best!

I do consider winning the CL7 a great achievement... sorry to disapoint you but we are the ones who won it
we won the CL6 second division last year (but on top of that we won the random cup, the assassin clan challenge, and we lost 31-30 in the CC5 semi finals against FALL that won the title), the CL7 fisrt division this year and yet we aren't creating threads about success and how people hate us cause we are so good!

That's ok my friend...I forgive you for being a "disappointment"! You did not win Division II... TOP did.....and yes....there are 2 Divisions...not 1! I am also sure the rest of your comment was not "bragging" and you were in no way displaying yourself to be an "annoying attention whore"!

[PaulatPeace]

IcePack,

I did not intend to leave your remarks unanswered. My apology. I also Completely agree with your statements and particularly relate to your discussion regarding "Perspective". I find you to be an articulate individual with good Leadership skills. I think you have made some serious ethical mistakes recently, particularly regarding our clan....but I respect what you have said here!

Paul

The only other thought I'll add to the conversation is this, success for each clan is individually measured. There are clans who don't ever want or plan to compete at the highest levels.
To those clans, winning Second Division would be a huge measure of success and a great thing to celebrate (and it's nothing to scoff at).
I think what some of the people are trying to get at, is if you profess to be one of the best, and are heading in that direction, and plan to compete at the highest levels, success has a different bar. Second Division at that level is nice, but it does not define a top level clan.

Leagues aren't generally viewed as wars either as I think don indicated, HH and TNC are a good start for wars, and the FOED war is an excellent step in the right direction. But again, winning 12 clans (in leagues) is much different then the success for example maybe PACK had achieved, where they won 12(?) ish wars in a row and several top level clans within that group. Or the success KORT or TOFU have established over the years most other clans only dream of.

So, to everyone stating what is or isn't success - there is perspective needed. What are the goals, where are they going, and where do they want to be / compared to are all very important to the conversation.

For example, FALL when we were established knew we wanted to compete in a Top 10 position. It's how we defined success the first year. We achieved it and held it long term. The next level of success for us was a Top 5 position, and working towards the two major titles (CCup and CLeague).

We have achieved one of those titles, and came a few games short of being only the 2nd clan to take CC and CL in the same year. We didn't make it tho, but in the process we earned another form of success (#1 rank).

Now it's up to us to redefine what our success will look like. Is it rank, is it CC6, is it CL8, is it all the above or both? That remains to be seen.

[rockfist]

Paula, Thanks. I don't know that we are the best right now, but we are part of that conversation and that's how we define success. In great years we win championships. In other years we compete for championships.

Whenever a newcomer challenges or threatens the established hierarchy of any group or organization (the clans) there are those who are threatened by it and react accordingly. It wasn't that long ago that Fallen or LHDD were considered newcomers, now to some extent they have become a part of that hierarchy...if you go back even further TOFU or S&M were the newcomers threatening THOTA.

It'll end eventually. But, I'm afraid neither you nor I can make it end. It has to run its course.

[iAmCaffeine]

I respectfully disagree with you here. The 'insults and filth' references I quoted came from clan leaders who were intimidated by us and were ultimately defeated. It was and is our 'success' that upsets them, because they can no longer hold on to the illusion they once deluded themselves with.

Honestly, iAmCaffeine was having a beef having you way before your defeated ATN, therefore no you can't argue that it's because you defeated them.
I read the clan forum enough to know that.

This is true. I haven't liked Paul and certain other members of TOP long before their clan was even established. I say things bluntly and I get to the point, with everyone. I am not remotely intimidated by your clan. That's hilarious. Yes, you beat us in CL7, but our promotion was secure about 3 or 4 matches before we faced you, so as a clan we turned our attention elsewhere. I didn't care if we were first or fourth, just that we got promoted. There is 1, maybe 2 people in your clan, that I would deem worthy to join Aeternus.

I probably won't bother posting again here. You need to take your own advice and look at things from other people's perspectives, because I would wager nobody insults you out of jealousy or because of your success. I expect you'll disagree, but I've even received PMs laughing at the fact that you think I insulted you over your success.

If you want a war then simply send me a PM. I'll even promise to keep the thread civil just so you don't get upset.

[JPlo64]

Thank you

[shoop76]

I don't have anything against Top, Paul or any of its members. I think its good that you are very involved and that your war threads are very active as, these days, most are not. That being said, I can see that some people don't take a liking to all the self glorifying posts that you and other members make.

I think you guys are good for the clan world as you do draw interest to yourselves. This may not always be positive interest, but it gives other clans something to shoot for. I see you guys as the yankees, your either with them and love them or want to beat the crap out of them. But I think this can be said for more elite clans.

TOP are off to a very impressive start, it will be interesting to see how you guys fair with tougher competition.

[MagnusGreeol]

I don't have anything against Top, Paul or any of its members. I think its good that you are very involved and that your war threads are very active as, these days, most are not. That being said, I can see that some people don't take a liking to all the self glorifying posts that you and other members make.

I think you guys are good for the clan world as you do draw interest to yourselves. This may not always be positive interest, but it gives other clans something to shoot for. I see you guys as the yankees, your either with them and love them or want to beat the crap out of them. But I think this can be said for more elite clans.
I
TOP are off to a very impressive start, it will be interesting to see how you guys fair with tougher competition.

- Your a fair good man Shoop, Salute-------)

-\MGM/-♎

[PaulatPeace]

I don't have anything against Top, Paul or any of its members. I think its good that you are very involved and that your war threads are very active as, these days, most are not. That being said, I can see that some people don't take a liking to all the self glorifying posts that you and other members make.

I think you guys are good for the clan world as you do draw interest to yourselves. This may not always be positive interest, but it gives other clans something to shoot for. I see you guys as the yankees, your either with them and love them or want to beat the crap out of them. But I think this can be said for more elite clans.

TOP are off to a very impressive start, it will be interesting to see how you guys fair with tougher competition.

Thank you brother!

I appreciate your words and have come to respect you as someone who will take a stand against unfair practices...even when others don't. That take some guts!

I will say as a relative newcomer to the clan world...that it is sometimes challenging to discern what appears to be a fine line between self glorifying posts and ones that include fact based comments about one's own clan and others. I've seen many, many posts by others that sometimes subtly and sometimes not so subtly cite all the accomplishments the writer's clan has had over the years. I do not personally get offended at these...in part because I feel these clans have earned these accomplishments and deserve the glory they have received. As you have stated, I also feel TOP is off to a great start, which I am proud of. It seems that there is however a double standard being employed, as if the established clans have a right to list their accomplishments...but the new kids on the block are not. I will say that we may someday be defeated in battle. As Keefie mentioned, HH beat us in one of the sets in the CL7 (although the total battle of the 2 sets combined was I think 11 - 5 for TOP... .) Until we are though....I do think it is a nice feather in our cap that we are undefeated...especially for a clan that has not chosen lower-ranked clans to battle and has challenged the top clans to wars. I'm sure these statements will again be viewed by some as self aggrandizing, but I don't see it as such.

Thank you again brother for your candid perspective and remarks.

Paul