Top 10 Clans of All Time

[Seulessliathan]

You can´t really compare clan wars in 2007 and 2015.
Just look at the maps and settings clans played during those days. You will find doubles Classic ns sunny chained several times. No Waterloo, no King´s Court, no complex maps at all. Most games , sometimes all games were sunny. Stuff like nukes or trench didn´t exist. Sure, Thota was a great clan, as was TSM during those times. Both had several standard map only players though. Good enough back in those days, but nowadays those players would be lost on 80% of the maps/settings. Laddida, hatchman, firstholliday etc etc, all fine players, but they limited themself to those standard maps/settings which they simply won´t get as away matches against the top clans nowadays.
To compare a clan from 2007 with a 2015 clan is like comparing a sport team from 1900 with a modern sport team. So many things have changed, rules and tactics are so different in many sports.
Imo it would make more sense to list the top 3 per year.

[Gold Knight]

You can´t really compare clan wars in 2007 and 2015.
Just look at the maps and settings clans played during those days. You will find doubles Classic ns sunny chained several times. No Waterloo, no King´s Court, no complex maps at all. Most games , sometimes all games were sunny. Stuff like nukes or trench didn´t exist. Sure, Thota was a great clan, as was TSM during those times. Both had several standard map only players though. Good enough back in those days, but nowadays those players would be lost on 80% of the maps/settings. Laddida, hatchman, firstholliday etc etc, all fine players, but they limited themself to those standard maps/settings which they simply won´t get as away matches against the top clans nowadays.
To compare a clan from 2007 with a 2015 clan is like comparing a sport team from 1900 with a modern sport team. So many things have changed, rules and tactics are so different in many sports.
Imo it would make more sense to list the top 3 per year.

I'm sure the argument could work both ways though, as several players that play the "complex" maps would not have the same skill on more standard style maps. Of course the cream of the crop will usually be pretty good at everything, but from my final memories as a clan member there were quite a few map specialists within each group, and that was back in 2012-13 (I'm old...). I can only imagine that has continued with the sheer number of maps that the site currently has as well, along with new gimmicks that have been introduced to these maps.

[Denise]

You can´t really compare clan wars in 2007 and 2015.
Just look at the maps and settings clans played during those days. You will find doubles Classic ns sunny chained several times. No Waterloo, no King´s Court, no complex maps at all. Most games , sometimes all games were sunny. Stuff like nukes or trench didn´t exist. Sure, Thota was a great clan, as was TSM during those times. Both had several standard map only players though. Good enough back in those days, but nowadays those players would be lost on 80% of the maps/settings. Laddida, hatchman, firstholliday etc etc, all fine players, but they limited themself to those standard maps/settings which they simply won´t get as away matches against the top clans nowadays.
To compare a clan from 2007 with a 2015 clan is like comparing a sport team from 1900 with a modern sport team. So many things have changed, rules and tactics are so different in many sports.
Imo it would make more sense to list the top 3 per year.

I'm sure the argument could work both ways though, as several players that play the "complex" maps would not have the same skill on more standard style maps. Of course the cream of the crop will usually be pretty good at everything, but from my final memories as a clan member there were quite a few map specialists within each group, and that was back in 2012-13 (I'm old...). I can only imagine that has continued with the sheer number of maps that the site currently has as well, along with new gimmicks that have been introduced to these maps.

I think a good strategist is a good strategist, whenever they happen to play. If laddida, firstholiday, and some of the others who played only standard maps back then were starting today, they would play complex maps and still be excellent players. They just happened to play and excel at the game when those complex maps and settings didn't exist so they stuck with what they knew. Both of those players I mentioned reached general and laddida held it forever playing only sunny standard maps. Almost everyone (no not everyone but many) reach high rank with some kind of gimmick. So yeah, I think we can look at the old players and say they were one of the best, and compare them to players who play complex maps because, at least imo, if they happened to have an interest in learning and playing complex maps & settings, they would be as good at it as anyone playing now.

[Shannon Apple]

I agree. Some of the best players I have known will argue that a player who can lead a team on a non-complex map and win via sheer strategy is an excellent player, especially on larger maps where luck plays less of a part. No tricks, no gimmicks. Of course, playing complex maps adds another level to the gameplay. A player who can adapt to any style of map, even if they've never played it before is also a great player. I think you have to give credit where credit is due. I've played with both kinds of player and I can't fault them for the kinds of maps that they generally prefer. A good strategist will always be a good strategist regardless of map choice.

[betiko]

well, I don't see how a very good player only on easy maps and settings could be seen as a better player than a good player on any map and settings...
if you are really good on complex maps, you are obviously really good on any "normal" map

[skillfull]

well, I don't see how a very good player only on easy maps and settings could be seen as a better player than a good player on any map and settings...
if you are really good on complex maps, you are obviously really good on any "normal" map

Maybe yes, but also maybe no!
It is much easier to judge a very good player on a standard gameplay map than on a complex map.
I mean, it is easier to see a genius player in a map that everybody understands, when he adds complexity of thoughts and great strategic moves , than in a complex map that only few good players can play and understand well.
Speaking for myself, i can understand the talent of a player from even a single drop or even from a single fort... i do not have to see him in a complex map to judge his mind.

[firstholliday]

Big whisky and blitz ruled risk for years....
It is not risk anymore....

Tx for the message panos

[Denise]

You said that very well, Panos, and I agree. You get a gold star! Oh wait.. you already have one.

[Seulessliathan]

Big whisky and blitz ruled risk for years....
It is not risk anymore....

Maybe it´s still risk, maybe with all the great complex maps it has become something better. Like a development from checkers to chess. Sure, some people love checkers.

Speaking for myself, i can understand the talent of a player from even a single drop or even from a single fort... i do not have to see him in a complex map to judge his mind.

I disagree, in case we talk about standard maps here. Let´s say you see a flawless move on Classic. So what? You can tell nothing from that move. Even if you see 10 perfect moves on let´s say a double on Classic, sunny, ns, chained, casual, seq, that means nothing. CC has seen hundreds of players who are able to do that. To start with, at least 50% of the players of the top clans (active and retired), and probably more clanless players.
If you want to judge if somebody has the talent to be a top 50 all star, you need way more information.

Another problem is that people play different styles. Let´s take a look at josko and Cof. They played very different, josko always attacking, Cof trying to secure ground first, playing very defensive.
Is josko a good player? Many people would say yes. When i teamed with him, we usually agreed about all plans, because we played the same style.
When i played with Cof, there were so many discussions, it was very rare that we agreed about a plan. So, if josko is a good player, and Cof plays totally different ..... what do you make of it?

You can´t judge a great player from a single move, or a single fort. That´s just not possible. You CAN see bad moves at once, sure. But often enough, people make good moves by accident. Not always do they have a great plan in mind, or even a clue about basics of strategy.
But, they HAVE TO deploy somewhere , and usually the number of options is somewhere between 3 and 15. Usually like 75% are plain stupid, being behind the lines etc. So, we talk about picking from 1-4 options. You can run the odds and see how often clueless people will do great deploys.

[skillfull]

I disagree , there are not many people who can play perfect moves ...they might think they do but they simply do not.
About josko and cof example, I were always saying that there were not always only 1 perfect play, sometimes, depending on the plan each team follows, some plays might seem strange to the eyes of enemies at start , but they combine so perfect to the general plan of the team, so it makes it a perfect move.

I repeat, a good player can judge another smart player by a single drop or a genius fort. I have not seen many genius forts or drops made by accident, you? And to clarify something, saying a move "perfect" it does not refer only of the result of that specific turn, but what he/she did while he/she was taking it etc etc

EDIT: Maybe my English did not help on this conversation, i re-read your post and then mine and i think you might have not understood what i meant by saying "a single drop or fort " OR maybe i did not say it proper. I was not speaking for ANY drop or fort, i was speaking about a turn (drop/fort) which is not an easy one but usualy in the middle or late of the game when the good decisions are difficult to be made by many players.

[Seulessliathan]

I disagree , there are not many people who can play perfect moves ...they might think they do but they simply do not.

Let´s say you play Classic double, one of your opponents holds Australia and has a stack of 5 at the entrance, rest of the world is well mixed, you can´t get any bonus or work on ter count, but you have 3 on Siam and 4 to deploy. Somebody (BigWham) claimed CC has seen more than some hundred thounds of players (was it 600.000?) Would you agree that deploying all on Siam and break the bonus would be perfect deploy and attack? So, how many of these people would be able to do that? 400.000? And if half of them find the best fort, then 200.000 people played a perfect move?

About josko and cof example, I were always saying that there were not always only 1 perfect play, sometimes, depending on the plan each team follows, some plays might seem strange to the eyes of enemies at start , but they combine so perfect to the general plan of the team, so it makes it a perfect move.

I am pretty sure that there is usually a best option. Difference might be small, it might be like 45% chance to win against 44,8%. Nearly the same, but one move is the best anyway.

I think you are confused on the possibilities to win a complex map by playing perfect and the judging of the talent of a player.

I doubt i confuse anything here. I tried to judge players for many years, and i tried to win complex maps for many years. Maybe i didn´t do it well, but believe me, i know the difference.

I am not saying that playing perfect in a standard gameplay map that will leads you in a win...in complex it might does most of the occassions, but that is a different story.

In the end, this game includes dice. Great gameplay gives you better odds to win, but sometimes the better player will lose, due to mistakes or due to dice.
I agree with you that on complex maps skill is more important than on standard maps.

A while ago, a player from a top clan said he could win 80% doubles on France against anybody, because he is so skilled on the map. I told him he couldn´t. He said he bets he could. I challenged him to play 10 or 20 doubles against him on the map and show that i would win more than 20% of the games. He didn´t accept the challenge.
On a map like France, some people might have an 80%+ record. But they can´t seriously believe that they will be able to hold that record above 80% when they play not totally stupid opponents.

I repeat, a good player can judge another smart player by a single drop or a genius fort. I have not seen many genius forts or drops made by accident, you?

See the example above, in that scenario, hundreds of thousands of players would have played the perfect turn. I can´t judge them, so i can´t tell you if those moves would have happen by accident or caused by a genius mind.



I think we can agree that we will always disagree here. Which is fine. The world would be boring if everybody would have the same opinion about everything.
Btw, on a personal note, you would hit my all star list, and i think you are pretty good in judging other players. But if you make a call after you have seen nothing else than a deploy or 1 fort ....
If i ever want to join your clan, i will demand you take a closer look at more than that fort.

[Seulessliathan]

Reply done before i saw your edit .... if you start to make sense, these conversations are less fun

[skillfull]

I edited my last post many times while i was trying to make an essential post and put the meaning of exactly what i am trying to say and do not fail again!

[ptlowe]

You can´t really compare clan wars in 2007 and 2015.
Just look at the maps and settings clans played during those days. You will find doubles Classic ns sunny chained several times. No Waterloo, no King´s Court, no complex maps at all. Most games , sometimes all games were sunny. Stuff like nukes or trench didn´t exist. Sure, Thota was a great clan, as was TSM during those times. Both had several standard map only players though. Good enough back in those days, but nowadays those players would be lost on 80% of the maps/settings. Laddida, hatchman, firstholliday etc etc, all fine players, but they limited themself to those standard maps/settings which they simply won´t get as away matches against the top clans nowadays.
To compare a clan from 2007 with a 2015 clan is like comparing a sport team from 1900 with a modern sport team. So many things have changed, rules and tactics are so different in many sports.
Imo it would make more sense to list the top 3 per year.

I agree with this. If you took a top 5 from even as late as 2009 all time most of the clans of late wouldnt even be in the discussion. So 2015 should not be considered to 2006 and 2007 clans as that was a whole different ball game.

[jltile1]

The pack is the BEST around here at doodle how did we get left out ?

[PaulatPeace]

You will soon find out who is the best!

The Clan World will be shaken to it's core!

The halls of Conquer Club will echo in resounding thunder:

"OMEGAS FIGHT AS ONE"



We will do one simple thing in the next few years...........:

Engage every single opponent with the Omega Strength In Unity we possess!

We are not in a hurry....but what we do....we will do well....and with conviction!

Omegas Fight As One!

note: This is not an arrogant threat....it is an Omega Promise!

PaulatPeace

[Keefie]

The Clan World will be shaken to it's core!

I thought your Doctor told you to lay off the beans.

[iAmCaffeine]

Annoying blue, bold text and stuff.

It's all time, not current. You'd have to achieve a lot in the next couple of years at least. This isn't a dig, just an observation that applies to a handful of current clans.

[rockfist]

I believe TOFU will achieve a lot in the next couple of years.

[Bruceswar]

I believe TOFU will achieve a lot in the next couple of years.

It would help if you won CC5??

[Arama86n]

I believe TOFU will achieve a lot in the next couple of years.

It would help if you won CC5??

I think what rock is getting at is that we have had a large number of cup tied people in late CC5. when we have had time to integrate a lot of new, awesome players, we will be in great shape to challenge for top spots for years to come.

I think it's good for CC to have more contenders for the top spot, and for the top of the field to be more evenly matched. CC6 should be rather interesting.
On a personal note, I'd guess that for TOFU, and especially it's old timers, a loss in the final will be easier to digest considering how CC5 played out.

[iAmCaffeine]

I believe TOFU will achieve a lot in the next couple of years.

It would help if you won CC5??

Yes, because S&M are really in a position to comment.