Métro Parisien v.17

[waauw]

What graphics program are you working with? I will show you something if you can let me know.
Font looks good on the large, but not so hot on the small. This map is getting better.

GIMP 2.8 and thanks, I'm doing my best to get better

[Teflon Kris]

Great progress.

[djelebert]

Really nice job!

The bus lines added and connection between airports can make it really interesting to play.

Just few remarks on design :

- The 13th line is not clear to distinghish from the font

- The white rings are too "flashy", maybe another font colour could be better.

I think number of lines in legend could be taken for bonus indication, as it's impossible to put all, the numbers are not a sequence; and for people who've never been in Paris, it could be confusing.

Hope this map be available early!

[macbone]

Why not bonuses just for holding all the stations on a particular line, like Def to CdV? Or maybe they're not lines after all. I guess breaking them up does make them easier to take.

What about a bonus for holding X number of landmarks?

Have you tried a version with the station names? It looks a bit confusing with the abbreviations. Something like this is a bit easier to read:

[waauw]

Why not bonuses just for holding all the stations on a particular line, like Def to CdV? Or maybe they're not lines after all. I guess breaking them up does make them easier to take.

As you noticed, breaking them up makes them easier to take and hold. Otherwise the bonuses would be unobtainable and indefensible.

What about a bonus for holding X number of landmarks?

I could do this however I feel it would overcomplicate the maps with too many bonuses. If I add this, I add it in replacement of objectives or in replacement of auto-deploy bonuses.

Have you tried a version with the station names? It looks a bit confusing with the abbreviations. Something like this is a bit easier to read:

I have. Some of the station names are so long that the map would look overcrowded with text.

[waauw]

Ok, since we once again have an active cartographer, I guess I can continue:

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

changes:

• lines are thinner by 2 pixels
• darkened stations too make less bright on the eyes
• line 13 darker, to make it easier to distinguish
• coloured the monuments

I think number of lines in legend could be taken for bonus indication, as it's impossible to put all, the numbers are not a sequence; and for people who've never been in Paris, it could be confusing.

The occurence of B- and C-lines are should be sufficient of a hint to distinguish them from bonuses, and I like to keep the line numbers because it fits the theme.
I did adapt to your other remarks.

[Teflon Kris]

Given the small number of maps being worked-on, MB hopefully wont be too swamped, although it would be cool if he had some assistance.

Anyway, I haven't studied your map in great detail yet but it's looking good for this stage of development. Lots of bonus talk above although I imagine that can be mostly analysed in the next forum?

The tiles as an outside border is great. They are very clean, later on you may want to embellish with a small touch of graffiti? Or not, just an idea.

On the subject of icons, I'm not sure what is to the left of Cou, or Def? And the small black icons stand-out more (eg. tennis, churches) so maybe they could go a bit grey? It would be cool if the Eiffel Tower were more prominent maybe? Could it go in front of the red line?

Am I right in thinking your stations with bus links are underlined?

Someone pedantic might say that the Bus/Air interchanges need to have symbols touching the station army circles, but I personally think its obvious to players which region the buses/airports belong to.

Good work, we definitely need a Paris map.

[waauw]

Anyway, I haven't studied your map in great detail yet but it's looking good for this stage of development. Lots of bonus talk above although I imagine that can be mostly analysed in the next forum?

Gameplay has such a large impact on everything I appreciate early comments.

The tiles as an outside border is great. They are very clean, later on you may want to embellish with a small touch of graffiti? Or not, just an idea.

Had the same idea, however I reconsidered due to the fact that the board itself took so much place and there was very little wall left for graffiti.

On the subject of icons, I'm not sure what is to the left of Cou, or Def? And the small black icons stand-out more (eg. tennis, churches) so maybe they could go a bit grey? It would be cool if the Eiffel Tower were more prominent maybe? Could it go in front of the red line?

That's "la Défense". Quite an impressive buidling, though I should probably work on that one. And I'll see what I can do about the rest as well.

Am I right in thinking your stations with bus links are underlined?

Someone pedantic might say that the Bus/Air interchanges need to have symbols touching the station army circles, but I personally think its obvious to players which region the buses/airports belong to.

Good work, we definitely need a Paris map.

Yes, except apparently I forgot to underline la Gare du Nord(GdN). And thanks.

[waauw]

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

starting positions and bonuses

Territories that will always start neutral: St.Lazare 5, Étoile 5, Châtelet 5, Nation 5
Starting territories:

• 2 players: 23(I had to drop this down from 28 or risk too much of a beginner advantage. With 23 you start +7 and you already have to take out 3 enemies to drop him to +6. As far as dropping a bonus goes, with at total of 14 neutrals on the map it would be difficult to start with one. The reason players don't start with 20 is because then 1/3rd of the map would be covered with neutrals.)
• 3 players: 18
• 4 players: 14
• 5 players: 11
• 6 players: 9
• 7 players: 8
• 8 players: 7
• 9 players: 6
• 10 players: 5
• 11 players: 5
• 12 players: 4

bonus-lines:I had to add an autodeploy to St. Lazare and augment the autodeploy on Étoile to compensate for the fact that there are more easy bonuses on the right side of the map.

• CDV-Châtelet(line 1): 5 territories, 2 borders t odefend, bonus +1 ==> compensated by two +1 auto's in Châtelet and Nation
• MdM-Op(line 13): 5 territories, 2 borders to defend, bonus +2 ==> compensated with a +1 auto in Nation
• CDG-GdN(line B): 4 territories, 2 borders to defend, bonus +2
• Nation-DR(line 6): 4 territories, 3 borders to defend, bonus +2 ==> compensated with a +1 auto in Nation
• Orly-Châtelet(line B): 4 territories, 4 borders to defend, bonus +3 ==> compensated with a +1 auto in Châtelet
• Issy-Invalides(line C): 4 territories, 3 borders to defend, bonus +3
• IsS-ND(line C): 4 territories, 3 borders to defend, bonus +3
• Nation-GdN(line 2): 5 territories, 3 borders to defend, bonus +3 ==> compensated with a +1 auto in Nation
• MIv-Châtelet(line 7): 5 territories, 3 borders to defend, bonus +3 ==> compensated with a +1 in Châtelet
• Défense-Louvre(line 1): 5 territories, 4 borders to defend, bonus +3 ==> compensated with a +2 auto in Étoile
• PDa-Pi(line 2): 5 territories, 4 borders to defend, bonus +3 ==> compensated with a +2 auto in Étoile
• PdS-SLa(line 9): 5 territories, 4 borders to defend, bonus +4 ==> compensated with a +1 auto in St.Lazare
• Étoile-GMp(line 6): 6 territories, 4 borders to defend, bonus +4 ==> compensated with a +2 auto in Étoile
• St.Ouen-Mu(line C): 5 territories, 4 borders to defend, bonus +5
• Cou-Op(line 7): 6 territories, 4 borders to defend, bonus +5
• ChMr-Con(line 13): 6 territories, 4 borders to defend, bonus +5
• AG-SLa-SDU(line 13): 7 territories, 4 borders to defend, bonus +5 ==> compensated with a +1 auto in St.Lazare

gameplay

• Standard: In games with a lot of players I expect people to go for the smaller bonuses and the the autodeploys. In games with few players, I suspect it'll become a fight over territory counts.
• Terminator: should be challenging with so many places for a player to hide and so many connections. I expect the few autodeploy bonuses will become important.
• Assassin: see terminator
• team/poly: larger teams will seek elimination of 1 player, while in smaller teams it could be advantageous to seek bonuses
• spoils: should pose no problem whatsoever
• trench: due to the many connections, games should not take ages. Conversely it will be extremely challenging to keep an eye on all your territories.
• Fog: works so well, so many hiding places
• Manual: I don't expect this to be problematic.In 2-player games there will be 14 neutrals obstructing beginners advantage and starting 3-player games you have to watch out for multiple players.

Changes:

• cleaned up a bit of sloppiness I noticed when zooming in
• Eiffel Tower and Défense
• wrote a couple of names full
• changed bonuses for lines so they make more sense
• Étoile now gets a +2 auto to compensate for more easy bonuses on the right
• added an autodeploy to st.lazare to compensate for easier bonuses on the right
• removed the victory conditions as they seemed unnecessary

PS: I have no idea what else is expected of me to get this a draft stamp, so I'm proceeding to work on the gameplay.

[Teflon Kris]

Nice update, I like the new tower and some of the minor icons fading to grey.

Gameplay-wise, there are a lot of bonuses available but, as its pretty much an adaptation of the classical-bonus-system (as opposed to conquest etc) then, although you may want to tinker with the values of the bonuses, there's nothing that would mean a restructuring of the map and/or connections.

Unfortunately for you, the bonus calculator may not be entirely accurate given that you have overlapping bonuses.

Plus, as you have noticed by adjusting the etoile auto-deploy, it is worth considering the bonuses available in different parts of the map - some maps have well calculated bonuses but may have lots of small bonus areas close together which creates an issue with the drop etc (ie. the player that can grab a bonus and hold with strength first, goes on to take more bonuses quickly and win ...).

[waauw]

Gameplay-wise, there are a lot of bonuses available but, as its pretty much an adaptation of the classical-bonus-system (as opposed to conquest etc)

Not sure I get what you mean.

[Teflon Kris]

Gameplay-wise, there are a lot of bonuses available but, as its pretty much an adaptation of the classical-bonus-system (as opposed to conquest etc)

Not sure I get what you mean.

Just that, the gameplay seems fine for the drafting room as it would only ever need fine-tuning (i.e. the most that would ever be needed would be adjustments to the values of the bonuses).

[ManBungalow]

Draft stamp for you!



Hi,

Sorry it's taken me a while to get around to this.

I like the theme you're working with here, and will leave some comments (mostly housekeeping):

- some connections unclear,
eg. Mu -> TE -> PodG ?
eg. SDU -> PSdF ?

- the helipad on Issy is quite difficult to spot (unless you know where it is), whereas the airports CDG and Orly are nice and clear

- the yellow line (Defense -> CdV) is quite difficult to see on that background, and also the colours of the routes aren't the same as those in the legend

- for that matter, I find the bonuses quite difficult to tell apart, as I have to keep referring to the legend then sifting through all the region names on the map to figure out where they are....I thought maybe where one bonus ends you could do a little visual indicator like changing the style on the text or something?
eg. on the Defense -> CdV line it's not immediately clear that Defense -> Lo and CDV -> Chat are each separate bonuses....I feel that a lot of people will assume you need the whole coloured line for the bonus...maybe it would be easier to have each bonus a different colour?

- bus connections...there's a black BUS icon and a blue BUS icon...are they ALL connected or is it just black <-> blue ??
eg. can I get a bus from ChMr -> Pds or do I have to go through a blue one first?

- if using GIMP, you can hold both SHIFT + CTRL when drawing a line or path, it will give you nice 15 degree increments, keeping lines nice and straight/parallel, and also avoiding some minor aliasing issues
eg. the line from Jus -> PldI is wonky

- I know it's a pain to change all the text, but I'm wondering if it's possible to have some more more complete region names and less abbreviation?
eg. Justin (or whatever) where you have Jus
I feel that fleshing out the names will give it more of a Parisian feel! And so long as you pick a nice clear font, they should fit even on the small map.

- some maps (eg. Ireland) have a border around the map for the large version, but remove the border and scale down a little bit for the small version, which buys you some more pixels to work with and makes the small version less squeezed...you could think about doing this (ie. removing the brick outline for the small version)...it doesn't make a huge difference, but when you have a lot of regions already it can help


Up next is gameplay commentary, and we'll think more about graphics later! I'll be back soon to have a closer look at bonus values etc.

Cheers waauw, thanks for your time.
MB

[waauw]

the colours of the routes aren't the same as those in the legend

Yeah I've changed the colours so often already that it ended up that way. However I left it as is because the colours aproximate each other sufficiently to be hard to notice and to be clear.

- for that matter, I find the bonuses quite difficult to tell apart, as I have to keep referring to the legend then sifting through all the region names on the map to figure out where they are....I thought maybe where one bonus ends you could do a little visual indicator like changing the style on the text or something?
eg. on the Defense -> CdV line it's not immediately clear that Defense -> Lo and CDV -> Chat are each separate bonuses....I feel that a lot of people will assume you need the whole coloured line for the bonus...maybe it would be easier to have each bonus a different colour?

The problem is that it will compromise the concept. Either I mention the names of the lines and keep the colours, or don't mention them at all and then I can use whatever colour I like. Let me know what you think is best.

Using various shades of the same colour is problematic as well considering my background isn't unicolour.

- if using GIMP, you can hold both SHIFT + CTRL when drawing a line or path, it will give you nice 15 degree increments, keeping lines nice and straight/parallel, and also avoiding some minor aliasing issues
eg. the line from Jus -> PldI is wonky

It's supposed to be wonky. That's how the real subway line in Paris curves. I drew my lines straight over a subway-map.

Thanks for the advices though. I worked on the rest.

[waauw]

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

Changes:

• colour line 1
• some names written full, some cut to pieces a bit to be able to write a full word, some remain the same
• heliport clearer
• cleared up C-line connection at Eiffel tower
• smaller version has no wall
• changed text on sticker
• made ovals slightly smaller to create a bit more space

[ManBungalow]

Some good improvements, just still not 100% sure about the BUS connections! See above.

[waauw]

Some good improvements, just still not 100% sure about the BUS connections! See above.

Yeah I wrote it in the sticker to make it absolutely clear, though splitting bus explanations might not be optimal.
Will see what I can do about it.

[waauw]

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

I got myself a co-mapmaker, many thanks to the artistic hero GeneralFault.
Changes:

• fonts
• colours

[GeneralFault]

Thanks Waauw, for the nice words!

[waauw]

Testing colour blindness:
Protanopia:

Click image to enlarge.

Deuteranopia:

Click image to enlarge.

Trinatopia:

Click image to enlarge.

==> only problem I can find so far is line 9 and 7 for Deuteranopia.

[waauw]

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

Changes:

• Several lines are now shorter, will have to change some bonuses
• trees
• fonts
• fixed some typo's and a wrong name
• P. Dauphine is no longer connected to line C as IRL. This will enable easier bonus grabbing in the west outbalancing the east.

[Extreme Ways]

Maybe it's an idea to change the colour of the Seine a bit? At first sight I thought it was a metroline, but I can't really think of a way to fix it as it's too small to put a nametag on it probably. I don't know if it's any better if you paint little waves on it either, but it's an idea.

[GeneralFault]

Maybe it's an idea to change the colour of the Seine a bit? At first sight I thought it was a metroline, but I can't really think of a way to fix it as it's too small to put a nametag on it probably. I don't know if it's any better if you paint little waves on it either, but it's an idea.

it will be in the next version, if waauwagrees as well.

[waauw]

Wrote up a temporary xml file.

[waauw]

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

bonuses

bonus-lines:I had to add an autodeploy to St. Lazare and augment the autodeploy on Étoile to compensate for the fact that there are more easy bonuses on the right side of the map.

• Porte Dauphine-Place de Clichy(line 2): 4 territories, 3 borders to defend, bonus +1 ==> compensated with a +1 auto in Étoile
• Vincennes-Châtelet(line 1): 5 territories, 2 borders to defend, bonus +1 ==> compensated by two +1 auto's in Châtelet and Nation
• Mairie de Montreuil-Opera(line 13): 5 territories, 2 borders to defend, bonus +1 ==> compensated with a +1 auto in Nation
• CDG-Gare du Nord(line B): 4 territories, 2 borders to defend, bonus +2
• Orly-Châtelet(line B): 4 territories, 4 borders to defend, bonus +2 ==> compensated with a +1 auto in Châtelet
• Issy-Invalides(line C): 4 territories, 3 borders to defend, bonus +2
• IsS-Notre Dame(line C): 4 territories, 3 borders to defend, bonus +2
• St.Ouen-Muette(line C): 4 territories, 3 borders to defend, bonus +2
• Sèvres-Trocadéro(line 9): 4 territories, 3 borders to defend, bonus +2 ==> not, St.-Lazare to balance out map
• Mairie d'Ivry-Jussieu(line 7): 4 territories, 2 borders to defend, bonus +2 ==> Not Châtelet, or else too crucial
• Bercy-Montparnasse(line 6): 4 territories, 4 borders to defend, bonus +3 ==> not Nation, or else Nation too crucial
• Père Lachaise-Gare du Nord(line 2): 4 territories, 3 borders to defend, bonus +3 ==> not Nation, or else Nation too crucial
• Défense-Louvre(line 1): 5 territories, 4 borders to defend, bonus +3 ==> compensated with a +1 auto in Étoile
• Étoile-Pasteur(line 6): 5 territories, 4 borders to defend, bonus +3 ==> compensated with a +1 auto in Étoile
• Courneuve-Opera(line 7): 6 territories, 4 borders to defend, bonus +5
• ChMr-Invalides(line 13): 6 territories, 4 borders to defend, bonus +4
• AG-PldC-SDU(line 13): 6 territories, 3 borders to defend, bonus +5

gameplay

• Standard: In games with a lot of players I expect people to go for the smaller bonuses and the the autodeploys. In games with few players, I suspect it'll become a fight over territory counts.
• Terminator: should be challenging with so many places for a player to hide and so many connections. I expect the few autodeploy bonuses will become important.
• Assassin: see terminator
• team/poly: larger teams will seek elimination of 1 player, while in smaller teams it could be advantageous to seek bonuses
• spoils: should pose no problem whatsoever
• trench: due to the many connections, games should not take ages. Conversely it will be extremely challenging to keep an eye on all your territories.
• Fog: works so well, so many hiding places
• Manual: I don't expect this to be problematic.In 2-player games there will be 14 neutrals obstructing beginners advantage and starting 3-player games you have to watch out for multiple players.

changes:

• Monuments replaced
• fonts
• colours
• background wall
• bonusses and bonus lines changed