[1v1] ATL vs MD (21-20 of 41) ATL Win FINAL

[Endgame422]

My count has this one going 21-20 in favor of ATL.
Best luck next round vs ACE.

[FrenchPupil]

it a real close one

congrats to all

[ViperOverLord]

MD is going to lose 20-21. And I want it on the record that we do not fully support this result; and in fact protest it due to improprieties by ATL. Crash_22 violated the FOW rule in three games of the WW Gazala set and then did not disclose all of the pertinent information (We find this blatant disregard for the rule to be highly objectionable even if he had). I requested that the games be remade when I saw that this had occurred. And in fact, Shoop had denied this request before I ever played first turns. Also, all of the pertinent info of the moves was never relayed to me in time or at any point thereafter. So, I effectively had to play those games blind and was unable to make the informed moves.

[shoop76]

MD is going to lose 20-21. And I want it on the record that we do not support this result; and in fact protest it due to improprieties by ATL. Crash_22 violated the FOW rule in three games of the WW Gazala set and then did not disclose all of the pertinent information (We find this blatant disregard for the rule to be highly objectionable even if he had). I requested that the games be remade when I saw that this occurred. And in fact, Shoop had denied this request before I ever played first turns. Also, all of the pertinent info of the moves was never relayed to me in time or at any point thereafter. So, I effectively had to play those games blind and was unable to make the informed moves.

I'm not getting into this anymore. My understanding of the unofficial fog of war rule has always been, if going before 12 hours post your moves. This was done.

[ViperOverLord]

I'm not getting into this anymore. My understanding of the unofficial fog of war rule has always been, if going before 12 hours post your moves. This was done.

It was explained to you (by Icepack and I) that the territories that would've been seen should also be posted; and yet, you're still going to post this as your one and only rebuttal? I find that to be highly disingenuous. Breaking of the rule (and not properly rectifying it) put us at an unfair disadvantage. This is a dishonorable course that Atlantis has taken.

[shoop76]

I'm not getting into this anymore. My understanding of the unofficial fog of war rule has always been, if going before 12 hours post your moves. This was done.

It was explained to you (by Icepack and I) that the territories that would've been seen should also be posted; and yet, you're still going to post this as your one and only rebuttal? I find that to be highly disingenuous. Breaking of the rule (and not properly rectifying it) put us at an unfair disadvantage. This is a dishonorable course that Atlantis has taken.

We have already been through this in all the pm's that were exchanged and again you need to bring it up. When we hammered out the details of the war and the fog rule was established I proposed the same fog rule as I have always used and that just covered posting moves. You never objected. You can look at other clan wars I have run and if a fog rule is posted nowhere have I ever added that not seen territories need to be made clear. Maybe that should have been part of the rule, but it wasn't when we discussed it. It's a vague, unofficial rule that has been interpreted in many ways. My interpretation didn't include that part. I also asked you to label the games fog so that it was easier for everyone to see.

Now, for me its finished. You start insulting me and my clan and I think that has gone far enough.

[FrenchPupil]

Viperoverlord,

If this is a dishonorable course of action, well that's your opinion ... Mine and some of the people that rating you is that you stand out as a sour looser and a complainer ...

Let's go over the course of action again ...
Game : Game 15630097 Game 15630096 Game 15630095 Game 15630094 Game 15630093

Facts : Crash_22 played before 12hrs ...
(What the hell of heart is it possible that he dared to break the holly rules ... maybe not paying attention ... who has never broke the fog rule by the way ??? ex: during this war - MD - vs ATL : Game 15587274 ariskocrat broke the rule too ... so i guess it happenned not only to ATLANTIS ... )

Facts : Crash_22 post in the game chat as per game rules ...

2015-05-18 12:21:10 - Crash_22: Crash_22 assaulted Free French Bir Hakiem from Cauldron C and conquered it from ViperOverLord 2015-05-18 12:12:55 - Crash_22 reinforced Cauldron B with 2 troops from Italian 101st Mot. Division

2015-05-18 12:21:41 - Crash_22: Crash_22 assaulted Cauldron C from Cauldron B and conquered it from ViperOverLord 2015-05-18 12:14:05 - Crash_22 assaulted Ritchie's 8th from Cauldron C and conquered it from ViperOverLord 2015-05-18 12:14:20 - Crash_22 reinforced Free French Bir Hakiem w
2015-05-18 12:22:13 - Crash_22: ith 2 troops from Cauldron A

2015-05-18 12:22:40 - Crash_22: Crash_22 assaulted Lumsden from Gott 13th Corp. and conquered it from ViperOverLord 2015-05-18 12:16:26 - Crash_22 assaulted British 7th M. Brigade from Lumsden and conquered it from ViperOverLord 2015-05-18 12:16:35 - Crash_22 assaulted Airfield El Adem
2015-05-18 12:22:57 - Crash_22: from Lumsden and conquered it from ViperOverLord 2015-05-18 12:16:47 - Crash_22 reinforced S. Afrikan Pienna with 2 troops from S. Afrikan 3/1

2015-05-18 12:20:39 - Crash_22: Crash_22 assaulted Free French Bir Hakiem from Cauldron A and conquered it from ViperOverLord 2015-05-18 12:11:56 - Crash_22 reinforced Cauldron B with 2 troops from Gazala Line 1

2015-05-18 12:23:23 - Crash_22: Crash_22 assaulted Italian 27th from Bir Temrad and conquered it from ViperOverLord 2015-05-18 12:17:40 - Crash_22 assaulted Cauldron A from Free French Bir Hakiem and conquered it from ViperOverLord 2015-05-18 12:18:01 - Crash_22 reinforced Gazala Line 6
2015-05-18 12:23:35 - Crash_22: with 2 troops from Italian 21st

and he even apologize ... in your wall ...
http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=382209Unknown.png

==> Normally at this time everybody is happy ... (FIY ... that's how it went with ariskocrat ) ... and everything move on with the proper info ... but in your case off course no ... you have to take the low road and start bitching, bothering everybody ... i guess you do deserve some of the rating you got ...

One question remain open after all that ... HAVE YOU EVER THOUGH OF ASKING crash_22 FOR THE INFORMATION YOU WERE SUPPOSELY MISSING ???
had you done it, CRASH_22 would without any doubt answer you before you would take your turn ... This simple question, Just common sense to be me by the way, would have save everybody a lot of time, and make you look like gentlemen officer ...

Just something to meditate viper ... at least it might help you with the rating by the way ...

[FrenchPupil]

And sorry for the wrong spelling ... and grammar error ...

[alster]

LOL... Just saw this. Had an ancounter with another nice and dandy MD player...

2015-05-21 14:56:11 - sditulli: your strategy is awful
2015-05-21 14:56:19 - sditulli: would win 10 out of 10 without missed turn
2015-05-21 15:11:10 - alster: well, don't miss turns then...

Hope the 21-20 prediction stands, then we all know that we also only won because I'm a lucky bastard with an awful strategy

[GoranZ]

Which are disputed games? Although 5 games are pointed out are all 5 disputed or less. The info in some might already satisfy both sides(no need to drag them here also).

[ViperOverLord]

FP:

* You say I'm on the "low road" for "complaining." My p.o.v. is that forcing me to play three games blind (not knowing altered sight lines; whether he has certain bonuses, so having to deploy different than I otherwise would) is the real low road; and not granting a prompt request for remakes was staying on that low road. To that latter point, it's not like I played turns and decided if I liked how the games were going or not. Hours before ever playing (Without studying the maps either), I requested the remakes via pm to shoop. And, it's not like I was cherry picking and requested that only the games that the violation had occurred be remade. I requested that the entire set be remade. Shoop stonewalled this request. He seemed to be okay with taking the unfair advantage. Yea, I'd call that the real "low road"; one that your clan has taken to victory.

* You can take your cheap shots and call me a "sour looser." But I made it clear to Shoop and Icepack that I would take my complaint public if this set ended up being the decider. Shoop had his chance to rectify this and play the games right and keep it out of the public view and preserve his clan's dignity. He declined.

* Crash_22 didn't just break the rule in one game. He did it in all three. You're telling me that it never occurred to a veteran clan player that the FOW rule was in effect? In the words of Lavon Hayes, No, No, No, No. He broke the rule and then very purposely didn't post the altered sight lines b/c he knew it would force me to play a certain way (to his advantage). It's not even my job to tell him to post all the relevant info. But for the record, I did state that he hadn't on his wall and in game chat and waited to play to see if he would. And you telling me that I didn't do this is blatantly wrong. And if I hadn't (which I did), shoop was also well aware of the exactness of this grievance via PM.

* Crash_22 can apologize on my wall / in game chat all he wants. Actions speak louder than words. He never at any point posted the blind territories (altered sight lines). Also, in an obvious attempt to pass the buck, Shoop gave him the option to remake the games. He never bothered to answer that; not to me, anyhow. Also, before you go giving him the patron saint award, when Crash finally said anything at all, he hurled insults. That's it.

* There were 205 games in this series. Nobody went around doing 12H FOW checks. It's a matter of self reporting to the contacts. Nobody from Atlantis presented me with an issue in Arisokrat's game. If you don't report, then we assume there's no issue. And btw, your'e telling me that there was apparently no real issue, anyways. So, your example is irrelevant to the matter at hand.

* I did make Shoop and Crash both aware for some hours before I finally played that the altered sight lines were not listed. So this "had you done it, CRASH_22 would without any doubt answer you before you would take your turn" is simply untrue. Not only did Crash not tell me the info in Round 1. He NEVER told me the info. Let me hammer that home: CRASH NEVER POSTED THE ALTERED SIGHT LINES (AS ICEPACK TOLD SHOOP IN A PM IS THE SPORTING THING TO DO) AND HE WAS WELL AWARE THAT I WAS NOT OKAY WITH THAT.

* I wake up to this mess on a few hours sleep, and then before going to work have to pm Icepack to find out my recourse. Then I get home and start pm'ing Shoop and Icepack / make this issue known to Crash as well (wall and game chat). And by the time that I play, later at night, I'm tired as hell and sitting there trying to do all this guess work (of whether he has bonuses or not without snaps and without posted altered sight line info); and we all darn well know that Crash has put me at a big disadvantage at that point.

* And lastly, shoop listing this as a final win while an appeal is being made and his clan mates talking trash during it says everything you need to know about Atlantis.

[FrenchPupil]

Viper,

I didn't report my games with ariskocrat ... Because there were nothing to report, because It was solved between gentlemen ... And i wish you had done the same ...

All, what you are complaining about ... I don't see in game chat ... Or on crash wall ...
hence you didn't give yourelf the chance to get what you want ... My advice, just get in touch directly with person concerned and copy the leader ...

You can tell me all you want, i see nothing no responsability for crash ... Or Atl ...
You are free to think we did wrong ... But too me you are complaining for nothing but loosing your games ... I have looked it up in deep, as i take this accusation very seriously ... There is no hard fact in your favor.

I am not taking the easy road here (it would be to be to ignore you btw) ... Just pointing out at the obvious ...

Icepack ruled out and declared ATL winner as per my understanding so your comments are out of line from now ...

[shoop76]

I didn't report my games with ariskocrat ... Because there were nothing to report, because It was solved between gentlemen ... And i wish you had done the same ...

This is exactly what I mean. We played the rule as to our understanding. Your request for the "blindspots" didn't happen until 11 hours after your 1st post. By this time it was too late.

[ViperOverLord]

FP:

You are clearly a person that has no problem spouting bold faced lies; even after I've already corrected you on the record. But let me make this more clear then:

Game Chat

2015-05-18 23:12:22 - ViperOverLord: See, I have no idea if you have Indians bonus or not for instance
2015-05-18 23:12:33 - ViperOverLord: You didn't bother to mention the others stuff
2015-05-18 23:12:44 - ViperOverLord: that I would have saw
2015-05-18 23:12:48 - ViperOverLord: This is bush league play

Crash_22 Wall

(ViperOverLorD\d)
You didn't list what was neutral or you on what I can't see now.

Furthermore, as I said, I alerted shoop about this as well. He was well aware of this matter. Shoop, Icepack and I were going over exactly what should've happened (altered sight lines listed). Shoop never went to his player and posted in chat that this need to be done. Again, the evidence suggests that your clan took an unfair advantage and ran with it.

I don't know what you think constitutes a 'ruling' from Icepack. I haven't seen him say anything explicit on this thread or the main thread. As a procedural matter, he moved ATL in the bracket b/c shoop had marked the thread as a win.

My comments are not at all out of line. Unlike you, I have been truthful. And I think I'm frankly within my rights to appeal despite your asinine condemnation about it.

[shoop76]

Yes you posted on Crash's wall about the territories, but that again 11 hours after your initial post. If requested earlier you have received info. But, again, the rules were followed as per the 12 hour fog rule agreed upon between me and you Viper. Its the one I have always used and the one that I proposed to you. You didn't specify it needed amending back then.

[ViperOverLord]

I didn't report my games with ariskocrat ... Because there were nothing to report, because It was solved between gentlemen ... And i wish you had done the same ...

This is exactly what I mean. We played the rule as to our understanding. Your request for the "blindspots" didn't happen until 11 hours after your 1st post. By this time it was too late.

1, Who is responsible for knowing that the FOW rule is in place?
2. Who is responsible for listing all pertinent info after it's broken? At a minimum, you guys are very negligent; and you usurped an unfair advantage.

I think these two realities are being purposely overlooked. But to indulge you:

Times Pacific

Crash joined the games at 6 AM and then began taking turns roughly 15 minutes later.

I logged in at about 11:40 AM. I saw this reality, made my complaints in chat/wall and then pm'd Icepack about the matter. So, at this point, I have roughly 18 hours before my turn expires when realistically I should be getting my snaps and then giving the go ahead to play or even waiting if I need the extra time. Instead, everything is now rushed and I have this big mess on my hands. Regardless, of what you think I should've done at this point, I've been duped. Now, instead of focusing on strategy and operating with full info in a proper time frame, I have issues to resolve and to do while tired and not with the full allotted time. Nor can I take care of it all perhaps as fast as you think I should b/c I have to go to work where I don't have internet access to work on it.

I go to work. I don't get home til approximately 6 PM. At this point, we're going on under 12 hours to resolve things when at this point, really that's when Crash should just be becoming eligible to play instead. But no, I get to do all these pms, wall posts, etc like I don't f'ing better things to do. And I have to do it all while I'm extremely tired btw as I was only on a few hours sleep.

After I get done pm'ing Icepack about things, it's 6:30 PM. Given the fact that I think it's a Friday and Crash isn't online and I want to do some chores and then get sleep and then not have to wake up before time expires and have then hoped that Crash has showed up and posted what he ought to have in the first place, I just send Shoop (you) an opening PM saying that I think the games should be remade. You've taken a very big unfair advantage and all while making my life miserable for it.

And guess what time you get back to me Shoop. 11:40 PM. At this point, I have just over 6 hours to play. And Crash has not posted the pertinent info. I have no reasonable expectation that he will. So, I reiterate that the games should be remade. I get a stonewall response and then you leave. So, now being really tired, I have to play the games while making all these guesses in a sleep deprived state. So naturally, yea I'm pissed and I hold to the fact that the games ought to have been remade.

[IcePack]

As previously stated in PM between the leaders, the rules state that I won't force any remakes and any agreement on FOW rule is between the two clans.

In my opinion, posting moves and sight lines is commonly associated with the rule. Normally unless MD accepted the moves only, I would think more info was due to the player.

At this point I left it for shoop and viper to discuss, which clearly hasn't come to any agreement.

[FrenchPupil]

Yes you posted on Crash's wall about the territories, but that again 11 hours after your initial post. If requested earlier you have received info. But, again, the rules were followed as per the 12 hour fog rule agreed upon between me and you Viper. Its the one I have always used and the one that I proposed to you. You didn't specify it needed amending back then.

Looking again at the fact ... i'd like to add:

Viper

- you posted on crash wall 1 hrs before takng your turns ...
If it was so unacceptable ... Why did you take your turns and decide to play ?

- still, i don't see in crash wall or game chat a request for information ... I only see complains ...

And apparently, you are now trying to renegotiate the terms of the FOW that shoop proposed you when, if not agreed upon, you didn't complain about the terms back then asking for amendment ...

[ViperOverLord]

Yes you posted on Crash's wall about the territories, but that again 11 hours after your initial post. If requested earlier you have received info. But, again, the rules were followed as per the 12 hour fog rule agreed upon between me and you Viper. Its the one I have always used and the one that I proposed to you. You didn't specify it needed amending back then.

Looking again at the fact ... i'd like to add:

Viper

- you posted on crash wall 1 hrs before takng your turns ...
If it was so unacceptable ... Why did you take your turns and decide to play ?

- still, i don't see in crash wall or game chat a request for information ... I only see complains ...

And apparently, you are now trying to renegotiate the terms of the FOW that shoop proposed you when, if not agreed upon, you didn't complain about the terms back then asking for amendment ...

No. You know what's unacceptable? Breaking the FOW in not one but all three games and then also not posting all the pertinent info. And it is not my responsibility to ensure that Crash posts everything right. I was just posting a time line to show how his bs f'd stuff up.

I'm not trying to renegotiate anything. I'm pointing out that there are reasonable understood expectations in place when the FOW is rule is in effect. In fact, they were even posted by the TO of this tourney about a year ago:

This is pretty typical:

12 hour Fog of War rule in effect. If broken, the offending team has to copy/paste
game log and reveal those territories that would have been visible to opposing team.
If not remedied, the offended team can opt to remake the game before playing their first turn.
The rule does not apply to conquest maps or where the only action is deploy/fort without attacks.

Yes, your clan broke the rule; and your clan did not remedy it. Also, I promptly did request a remake before playing any turns. You can confirm that with either shoop or Icepack.

[ViperOverLord]

Looking again at the fact ... i'd like to add:

Viper

- you posted on crash wall 1 hrs before takng your turns ...
If it was so unacceptable ... Why did you take your turns and decide to play ?

Cos I was going to bed; and the games still had to be played. Also, some PM's about this issues approximately 6 to 7 hours before the turns were taken had mentioned that the altered sight lines were not listed. Shoop, I assume would have let your player know about that at that time. But I had already pm'd that the set should be remade. The only thing 'unacceptable' was not granting a simple request after your player had f'd things up (not me). You guys won on an unfair advantage. I agreed to the FOW Rule and yet you guys don't think you have to follow generally accepted practices.

And playing those turns did not cancel out the legitimate point that the games should be remade and I persisted with this point the next day. Instead of doing the fair thing and granting a simple request to rectify your clan's egregious actions and doing the remakes, Shoop talked circles around it and then eventually said Crash_22 should decide. What?!?! Give me a break. And he apologized to Crash for the inconvenience; not me. Yea, apologize to the guy that CHEATED and not the guy who you screwed over.

BUSH FREAKING LEAGUE CLAN - ATLANTIS.

We agreed to a FOW Rule; and at the end of the day b/c we didn't dot some i's and cross some t's, shoop is using that as an excuse to no abide the rule. You're advancing on CHEATING.

You can either do the right thing and replay the set; or you can advance on CHEATING. But let everyone know what Atlantis is about, then.

[BoganGod]

Nothing will be remade. Build a bridge. Mix yourself a cup of concrete. Crash_22 is the nicest and most honourable player with a higher than normal IQ(met many a beaming idiot) I've ever had the pleasure of being in a clan with. In this case Crash, went over and beyond the necessary in repairing an honest mistake. VOL, acting like a 3yr old with a broken dolly, throwing toys out of cot, and screaming at the top of your lungs, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA, I wanna, just won't work kiddo. Thank you for outing yourself to what is left of this site as a sore loser.

[ViperOverLord]

Nothing will be remade. Build a bridge. Mix yourself a cup of concrete. Crash_22 is the nicest and most honourable player with a higher than normal IQ(met many a beaming idiot) I've ever had the pleasure of being in a clan with. In this case Crash, went over and beyond the necessary in repairing an honest mistake. VOL, acting like a 3yr old with a broken dolly, throwing toys out of cot, and screaming at the top of your lungs, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA, I wanna, just won't work kiddo. Thank you for outing yourself to what is left of this site as a sore loser.

Another example of juvenile, classless behavior by ATL. You guys have no honor. You're okay with advancing on cheating and throwing out your lil' taunts to boot.

[BoganGod]

Kid, you picked on, bullied, harassed, and cried about the nicest person in the clan. I'm saddened that others gave your delusional and drug addled ramblings the time of day. Move on, you lost, fairly. Crash is a better player than you will ever be. Sorry that your education system and liberal upbringing have left you ill equipped to deal with adult interactions on an online game site. As for taunts, in your self loathing at losing you decided to taunt an entire clan? Come on kid. My comments are directed at you, and you alone. Not the rest of your clan who played, won and lost with honour, good humour, and in a spirit of mutual respect.

[Arama86n]

Bogan, if I ever tire of old foul smelling sheep, and move on to upper-middle-aged hairy men with the strench of sangria about them.. dear, you'll be getting my propsal
Not to take sides in the issue at hand, I have no idea what happened, and couldn't give a shit. But seriously mate you should have been an author. There is no doubt that you missed your calling in life by a mile.