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Re: The Great War

Postby denominator on Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:20 pm

Dukasaur wrote:
iAmCaffeine wrote:Is there a specific way of getting them?

So far, Zeppelins have only been given out in the Creative Components.

Helmets have been given out in some tournaments, rather inconsistently. In a few cases, like La PremiĆØre Bataille de la Marne, they were added to the top prizes as a type of sweetener. More recently, like in Battle of Cocos which will launch later today, a helmet prize was randomly assigned to a non-winning position. This is a rather severely modified implementation of pamoa's suggestion.

I can't find any pistols that we've given out. I thought we had, but I may be mistaken.

There are at least two lines of future development that haven't happened yet due to lack of volunteer manpower, but that I have high hopes for.
  1. I want to have major battles fought out as clan wars, with clans representing the various major powers. I haven't yet had time to discuss this with the CDs and get it cleared, but I still intend to.
  2. Now that we have Scenarios and will soon have Campaigns, there will be a of course be some Scenarios and Campaigns based on Great War battles, and these might eventually be as big a component as the autotourneys.
Either of the above could see heavy use of the (currently underused) tokens.


How do the other 3 factor into the rankings on the scoreboard? Currently it is Medals, then Cannon Tokens. Will the other 3 cascade behind Cannons or in front?

In other words, which tokens are most "valuable"?
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Re: The Great War

Postby Dukasaur on Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:54 am

denominator wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:
iAmCaffeine wrote:Is there a specific way of getting them?

So far, Zeppelins have only been given out in the Creative Components.

Helmets have been given out in some tournaments, rather inconsistently. In a few cases, like La PremiĆØre Bataille de la Marne, they were added to the top prizes as a type of sweetener. More recently, like in Battle of Cocos which will launch later today, a helmet prize was randomly assigned to a non-winning position. This is a rather severely modified implementation of pamoa's suggestion.

I can't find any pistols that we've given out. I thought we had, but I may be mistaken.

There are at least two lines of future development that haven't happened yet due to lack of volunteer manpower, but that I have high hopes for.
  1. I want to have major battles fought out as clan wars, with clans representing the various major powers. I haven't yet had time to discuss this with the CDs and get it cleared, but I still intend to.
  2. Now that we have Scenarios and will soon have Campaigns, there will be a of course be some Scenarios and Campaigns based on Great War battles, and these might eventually be as big a component as the autotourneys.
Either of the above could see heavy use of the (currently underused) tokens.


How do the other 3 factor into the rankings on the scoreboard? Currently it is Medals, then Cannon Tokens. Will the other 3 cascade behind Cannons or in front?

In other words, which tokens are most "valuable"?

At present, only Battle Medals have any value. The others are just for entering tournaments. That will change, once the others start getting used.
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Re: The Great War

Postby iAmCaffeine on Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:20 am

Dukasaur wrote:
denominator wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:
iAmCaffeine wrote:Is there a specific way of getting them?

So far, Zeppelins have only been given out in the Creative Components.

Helmets have been given out in some tournaments, rather inconsistently. In a few cases, like La PremiĆØre Bataille de la Marne, they were added to the top prizes as a type of sweetener. More recently, like in Battle of Cocos which will launch later today, a helmet prize was randomly assigned to a non-winning position. This is a rather severely modified implementation of pamoa's suggestion.

I can't find any pistols that we've given out. I thought we had, but I may be mistaken.

There are at least two lines of future development that haven't happened yet due to lack of volunteer manpower, but that I have high hopes for.
  1. I want to have major battles fought out as clan wars, with clans representing the various major powers. I haven't yet had time to discuss this with the CDs and get it cleared, but I still intend to.
  2. Now that we have Scenarios and will soon have Campaigns, there will be a of course be some Scenarios and Campaigns based on Great War battles, and these might eventually be as big a component as the autotourneys.
Either of the above could see heavy use of the (currently underused) tokens.


How do the other 3 factor into the rankings on the scoreboard? Currently it is Medals, then Cannon Tokens. Will the other 3 cascade behind Cannons or in front?

In other words, which tokens are most "valuable"?

At present, only Battle Medals have any value. The others are just for entering tournaments. That will change, once the others start getting used.


I'm not sure that's true. If two players have the same amount of battle medals, whoever has more cannon tokens will be ranked higher.
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Re: The Great War

Postby Dukasaur on Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:03 am

Yes, that is true. So I guess they have "some" value.
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Re: The Great War

Postby Dukasaur on Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:56 pm

Givenchy is live as of today. Battle of the Bees will remain live for a few more days, also.

Subject: The Great War

List of Current and Upcoming Tournaments

show: Battle of the Bees march 29th to april 5th

show: Givenchy april 1st to april 8th
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Re: The Great War

Postby Dukasaur on Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:30 am

Now that the Great Bunny Escapade is winding down, we can get back to the serious business of people killing people on the fields of war.

The Scarborough & Hartlepool tournament launches today:
show: Scarborough and Hartlepool april 8 to april 15


The final iteration of Givenchy is up, and there are of of now still 5 spots open in the final iteration of the Battle of the Bees.

While I have your attention, I would like to extend my congratulations to Ukey, who becomes the first player with 5 Battle Medals, and also to Shoop76, who now has 4!

=D> =D> =D>


We are planning a special event for the week starting April 20th. Stay tuned...:)
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Re: The Great War

Postby morleyjoe on Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:18 am

Congrats to those with event wins so far.... I can't help but notice that these event wins with tournament trophies are not showing up in the Tournaments Winners List Will those eventually be added to the Winner Hall of Fame list?
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Re: The Great War

Postby Dukasaur on Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:40 am

morleyjoe wrote:Congrats to those with event wins so far.... I can't help but notice that these event wins with tournament trophies are not showing up in the Tournaments Winners List Will those eventually be added to the Winner Hall of Fame list?

One would hope so.

Thus far, the world of autotournaments and the world of community-run tournaments have been completely separate. Wins in auto-tournaments have not been added to the community tournament database and therefore they don't count for the Hall of Fame. It is my belief that eventually the two worlds must be integrated, but there don't seem to be any immediate plans for that. So, in the long term I would say yes, that must eventually happen, but I won't hold my breath waiting for it.
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Re: The Great War

Postby morleyjoe on Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:00 am

Dukasaur wrote:
morleyjoe wrote:Congrats to those with event wins so far.... I can't help but notice that these event wins with tournament trophies are not showing up in the Tournaments Winners List Will those eventually be added to the Winner Hall of Fame list?

One would hope so.

Thus far, the world of autotournaments and the world of community-run tournaments have been completely separate. Wins in auto-tournaments have not been added to the community tournament database and therefore they don't count for the Hall of Fame. It is my belief that eventually the two worlds must be integrated, but there don't seem to be any immediate plans for that. So, in the long term I would say yes, that must eventually happen, but I won't hold my breath waiting for it.



Wow - I didn't even notice the Autotournaments not being included. That is really sad. On a site that has become focused on things like "Inventory" stars and the like, why can't someone update some of the more basic and long term achievements such as tournament wins? :cry:
Last edited by morleyjoe on Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Great War

Postby shoop76 on Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:36 pm

But then how come we don't get the medals for winning an autotourney. If they are separate shouldn't we receive a medal even if we have more than the max tourney wins.
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Re: The Great War

Postby Dukasaur on Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:46 am

shoop76 wrote:But then how come we don't get the medals for winning an autotourney. If they are separate shouldn't we receive a medal even if we have more than the max tourney wins.

I think that's a question outside the scope of this event, and above my pay grade...:)
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Re: The Great War

Postby Dukasaur on Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:57 am

April 20th to 26th, the Great War Team Presents.....

Worldwide Warfare Week


One hundred years ago, the world was engulfed in one of the greatest and most cataclysmic events in human history. From Europe the ripples of war spread to Asia, Africa, Oceania, the Mediterranean, the North Sea, the Atlantic, the Pacific, North America, even South America. This week we are going to have a massive variety of Great War events coming your way, touching many different areas of the globe, as the World War goes from being a European Conflict to truly Worldwide!

We could have called it Seven Strikes & Struggles, we could have called it Blazin' Battles, we could have called it Seven Days of Slaughter, we could have called it the April Showers of War, but in the end we settled on Worldwide Warfare Week.

For starters, we are launching seven new Great War autotournaments! Here is what you will see:

On April 20th, a new tournament by JamesKer1, will continue where Bergmann left off, with battles ongoing in the narrow passes of the Caucasus Mountains: Ardahan and Sarkamish
show: Ardahan and Sarikamish april 20th to 27th

On April 21st, the latest epic tournament by Dukasaur marks the third time that Serbia surprised the whole world and gave the mighty Habsburg Empire a good kick in the pants: Kolubara/Rudnik Ridges
show: kolubara and rudnik ridge april 21st to 28th

On April 22nd, a tournament by DoomYoshi completes the saga of the Fall of the German East Asia Squadron, illustrating key lessons of naval warfare with some very appropriately chosen maps and settings: Falkland Islands
show: falkland islands april 22nd to 29th

On April 23rd, the tournament by robellis00 that won the Battle of BolimĆ³w Autotourney Design Contest will launch. Written by a freemium player, with his fellow freemium players in mind, it is appropriate that this will be a full freemium-exemption tournament, meaning that freemiums can join even if they don't have a slot available: Battle of BolimĆ³w
show: battle of bolimov april 23rd to 30th

On April 24th, we will mark ANZAC Day with a tournament by Dukasaur written especially for the occasion: ANZAC Day
show: anzac day april 24th to may 1st

On April 25th, an all-1v1 tourney should satisfy 1v1 aficionados with the follow-up battle to the Basra landings: Qurna
show: Qurna april 25th to may 2nd

On April 26th, another entry by DoomYoshi will present a very equivocal battle in the North Sea: Dogger Bank
show: dogger bank april 26th to may 3rd


"But wait!" you cry, "I don't have enough tokens to enter seven new tournaments!" The Conquer Gods feel your pain, and they will be trying to help out. As of yesterday, the Conquer Gods started dropping Great War tank tokens! By the end of the week everybody should have gotten 2 or 3 from random drops. Hope that helps! Of course, that will not be enough if you want to join all seven tourneys, so I hope you have been saving some up over the last month! You will almost certainly have to join some token dropping games, which you can always find by in the Current list of Great War token-dropping maps.

But that's not all!

This week we release DoomYoshi's new Scenario: 1914 Proper. This scenario attempts to correctly duplicate the relative strengths and strategic advantages of the eight major European powers. (Note: as is typical for a Scenario, this is not play-balanced. Don't worry, no points change hands in Scenarios, so if you get one of the weaker nations, it won't hurt you. I think, very honestly, that this represents the very best use of Scenarios, attempting to present a historical situation as it actually happened, and I think it does a excellent job of that!) In addition to being a great way to study the historical situation and the advantages and disadvantages of each major power, this scenario also drops tokens!

Plus, DOWN UNDER TRIVIA in the Chat Rooms http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=207817&p=4655406#p4655406
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Plus, a Great War-related event in the Off-Topics forum! Watch for further announcements!

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Re: The Great War

Postby Dukasaur on Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:19 am

For those who didn't notice it at first:
Dukasaur wrote:But that's not all!

This week we release DoomYoshi's new Scenario: 1914 Proper. This scenario attempts to correctly duplicate the relative strengths and strategic advantages of the eight major European powers. (Note: as is typical for a Scenario, this is not play-balanced. Don't worry, no points change hands in Scenarios, so if you get one of the weaker nations, it won't hurt you. I think, very honestly, that this represents the very best use of Scenarios, attempting to present a historical situation as it actually happened, and I think it does a excellent job of that!) In addition to being a great way to study the historical situation and the advantages and disadvantages of each major power, this scenario also drops tokens!
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Re: The Great War

Postby willedtowin1 on Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:26 am

Dukasaur wrote:April 20th to 26th, the Great War Team Presents.....

Worldwide Warfare Week


One hundred years ago, the word was engulfed in one of the greatest and most cataclysmic events in human history. From Europe the ripples of war spread to Asia, Africa, Oceania, the Mediterranean, the North Sea, the Atlantic, the Pacific, North America, even South America. This week we are going to have a massive variety of Great War events coming your way, touching many different areas of the globe, as the World War goes from being a European Conflict to truly Worldwide!

We could have called it Seven Strikes & Struggles, we could have called it Blazin' Battles, we could have called it Seven Days of Slaughter, we could have called it the April Showers of War, but in the end we settled on Worldwide Warfare Week.

For starters, we are launching seven new Great War autotournaments! Here is what you will see:

On April 20th, a new tournament by JamesKer1, will continue where Bergmann left off, with battles ongoing in the narrow passes of the Caucasus Mountains: Ardahan and Sarkamish
show: Ardahan and Sarikamish april 20th to 27th

On April 21st, the latest epic tournament by Dukasaur marks the third time that Serbia surprised the whole world and gave the mighty Habsburg Empire a good kick in the pants: Kolubara/Rudnik Ridges
show: kolubara and rudnik ridge april 21st to 28th

On April 22nd, a tournament by DoomYoshi completes the saga of the Fall of the German East Asia Squadron, illustrating key lessons of naval warfare with some very appropriately chosen maps and settings: Falkland Islands
show: falkland islands april 22nd to 29th

On April 23rd, the tournament by robellis00 that won the Battle of BolimĆ³w Autotourney Design Contest will launch. Written by a freemium player, with his fellow freemium players in mind, it is appropriate that this will be a full freemium-exemption tournament, meaning that freemiums can join even if they don't have a slot available: Battle of BolimĆ³w
show: battle of bolimov april 23rd to 30th

On April 24th, we will mark ANZAC Day with a tournament by Dukasaur written especially for the occasion: ANZAC Day
show: anzac day april 24th to may 1st

On April 25th, an all-1v1 tourney should satisfy 1v1 aficionados with the follow-up battle to the Basra landings: Qurna
show: Qurna april 25th to may 2nd

On April 26th, another entry by DoomYoshi will present a very equivocal battle in the North Sea: Dogger Bank
show: dogger bank april 26th to may 3rd


"But wait!" you cry, "I don't have enough tokens to enter seven new tournaments!" The Conquer Gods feel your pain, and they will be trying to help out. As of yesterday, the Conquer Gods started dropping Great War tank tokens! By the end of the week everybody should have gotten 2 or 3 from random drops. Hope that helps! Of course, that will not be enough if you want to join all seven tourneys, so I hope you have been saving some up over the last month! You will almost certainly have to join some token dropping games, which you can always find by in the Current list of Great War token-dropping maps.

But that's not all!

This week we release DoomYoshi's new Scenario: 1914 Proper. This scenario attempts to correctly duplicate the relative strengths and strategic advantages of the eight major European powers. (Note: as is typical for a Scenario, this is not play-balanced. Don't worry, no points change hands in Scenarios, so if you get one of the weaker nations, it won't hurt you. I think, very honestly, that this represents the very best use of Scenarios, attempting to present a historical situation as it actually happened, and I think it does a excellent job of that!) In addition to being a great way to study the historical situation and the advantages and disadvantages of each major power, this scenario also drops tokens!

Plus, an ANZAC-related event in Live Chat! Watch for further announcements!

Plus, a Great War-related event in the Off-Topics forum! Watch for further announcements!

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Re: The Great War

Postby Dukasaur on Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:31 am

willedtowin1 wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:April 20th to 26th, the Great War Team Presents.....

Worldwide Warfare Week


One hundred years ago, the world was engulfed in one of the greatest and most cataclysmic events in human history. From Europe the ripples of war spread to Asia, Africa, Oceania, the Mediterranean, the North Sea, the Atlantic, the Pacific, North America, even South America. This week we are going to have a massive variety of Great War events coming your way, touching many different areas of the globe, as the World War goes from being a European Conflict to truly Worldwide!

We could have called it Seven Strikes & Struggles, we could have called it Blazin' Battles, we could have called it Seven Days of Slaughter, we could have called it the April Showers of War, but in the end we settled on Worldwide Warfare Week.

For starters, we are launching seven new Great War autotournaments! Here is what you will see:

On April 20th, a new tournament by JamesKer1, will continue where Bergmann left off, with battles ongoing in the narrow passes of the Caucasus Mountains: Ardahan and Sarkamish
show: Ardahan and Sarikamish april 20th to 27th

On April 21st, the latest epic tournament by Dukasaur marks the third time that Serbia surprised the whole world and gave the mighty Habsburg Empire a good kick in the pants: Kolubara/Rudnik Ridges
show: kolubara and rudnik ridge april 21st to 28th

On April 22nd, a tournament by DoomYoshi completes the saga of the Fall of the German East Asia Squadron, illustrating key lessons of naval warfare with some very appropriately chosen maps and settings: Falkland Islands
show: falkland islands april 22nd to 29th

On April 23rd, the tournament by robellis00 that won the Battle of BolimĆ³w Autotourney Design Contest will launch. Written by a freemium player, with his fellow freemium players in mind, it is appropriate that this will be a full freemium-exemption tournament, meaning that freemiums can join even if they don't have a slot available: Battle of BolimĆ³w
show: battle of bolimov april 23rd to 30th

On April 24th, we will mark ANZAC Day with a tournament by Dukasaur written especially for the occasion: ANZAC Day
show: anzac day april 24th to may 1st

On April 25th, an all-1v1 tourney should satisfy 1v1 aficionados with the follow-up battle to the Basra landings: Qurna
show: Qurna april 25th to may 2nd

On April 26th, another entry by DoomYoshi will present a very equivocal battle in the North Sea: Dogger Bank
show: dogger bank april 26th to may 3rd


"But wait!" you cry, "I don't have enough tokens to enter seven new tournaments!" The Conquer Gods feel your pain, and they will be trying to help out. As of yesterday, the Conquer Gods started dropping Great War tank tokens! By the end of the week everybody should have gotten 2 or 3 from random drops. Hope that helps! Of course, that will not be enough if you want to join all seven tourneys, so I hope you have been saving some up over the last month! You will almost certainly have to join some token dropping games, which you can always find by in the Current list of Great War token-dropping maps.

But that's not all!

This week we release DoomYoshi's new Scenario: 1914 Proper. This scenario attempts to correctly duplicate the relative strengths and strategic advantages of the eight major European powers. (Note: as is typical for a Scenario, this is not play-balanced. Don't worry, no points change hands in Scenarios, so if you get one of the weaker nations, it won't hurt you. I think, very honestly, that this represents the very best use of Scenarios, attempting to present a historical situation as it actually happened, and I think it does a excellent job of that!) In addition to being a great way to study the historical situation and the advantages and disadvantages of each major power, this scenario also drops tokens!

Plus, an ANZAC-related event in Live Chat! Watch for further announcements!

Plus, a Great War-related event in the Off-Topics forum! Watch for further announcements!

Image


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nice catch...:) Fixed.
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Re: The Great War

Postby casper on Wed Apr 22, 2015 6:50 pm

Dukasaur wrote:This week we release DoomYoshi's new Scenario: 1914 Proper. This scenario attempts to correctly duplicate the relative strengths and strategic advantages of the eight major European powers. (Note: as is typical for a Scenario, this is not play-balanced. Don't worry, no points change hands in Scenarios, so if you get one of the weaker nations, it won't hurt you. I think, very honestly, that this represents the very best use of Scenarios, attempting to present a historical situation as it actually happened, and I think it does a excellent job of that!) In addition to being a great way to study the historical situation and the advantages and disadvantages of each major power, this scenario also drops tokens!


Hi. I clicked on the 1914 Proper link to see what a scenario is. It automatically added me to a game. Why?!? Grrr.. I was just curious to see what a scenario looks like, not actually play. :( Thanks.
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Re: The Great War

Postby Dukasaur on Wed Apr 22, 2015 6:56 pm

casper wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:This week we release DoomYoshi's new Scenario: 1914 Proper. This scenario attempts to correctly duplicate the relative strengths and strategic advantages of the eight major European powers. (Note: as is typical for a Scenario, this is not play-balanced. Don't worry, no points change hands in Scenarios, so if you get one of the weaker nations, it won't hurt you. I think, very honestly, that this represents the very best use of Scenarios, attempting to present a historical situation as it actually happened, and I think it does a excellent job of that!) In addition to being a great way to study the historical situation and the advantages and disadvantages of each major power, this scenario also drops tokens!


Hi. I clicked on the 1914 Proper link to see what a scenario is. It automatically added me to a game. Why?!? Grrr.. I was just curious to see what a scenario looks like, not actually play. :( Thanks.

Sorry Casper.

Here's a link that allows you to view the scenario without joining it: http://www.conquerclub.com/player.php?mode=scenario&scenario_id=52

I've replaced it in the original announcement, too.
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Re: The Great War

Postby casper on Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:30 pm

No problem. I actually look forward to playing this. :) Thanks for changing the link so others don't make the same mistake.
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Re: The Great War

Postby Razorvich on Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:13 am

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TeeGee has my PW... Wall him if I get below 1 Hour in CLAN GAMES ONLY !!
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Re: The Great War

Postby Leehar on Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:52 pm

Where's the conversion calculator for cc time when you need it!
8cc time is 2pm gmt?
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Re: The Great War

Postby Swifte on Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:13 pm

Leehar wrote:Where's the conversion calculator for cc time when you need it!
8cc time is 2pm gmt?


Does this help?

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=First+Chat+Event+for+Worldwide+Warfare+Week&iso=20150425T08&p1=179
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Re: The Great War

Postby nietzsche on Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:10 am

I'm getting fucking tired of people using my chat without asking.
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Re: The Great War

Postby Razorvich on Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:23 am

Leehar wrote:Where's the conversion calculator for cc time when you need it!
8cc time is 2pm gmt?


it easy for me -12hours, CC time is living in the past

but... good point, I will include a calc link in future announcements

and nietzsche... you haven't been there for so long, its not yours now :mrgreen:
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TeeGee has my PW... Wall him if I get below 1 Hour in CLAN GAMES ONLY !!
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Re: The Great War

Postby mookiemcgee on Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:43 pm

12 hour fog rule in Great War tourneys?

Almost no one I've played with seems to wait 12 hours (or for my ok) when these games start, so I assumed that the 12 hour fog rule wasn't in place for these tourneys.

However I was just reprimanded by an new opponent for not waiting (the games were only up for about 10-15 min before I started taking my turns), he has asked I share the info on my turns , which i did out of respect.

Frankly it puts me off quite a bit that my respectfulness puts me at a competitve disadvantage in this set, while I'm getting run over in other sets with other players that don't wait. I'm personally not comfortable asking others to share their first turn info, its part of the game as far as I am concerned...

What is the main intent regarding this rule in 'great war' tourneys per you "the management". I would like to have some clarity moving forward. Again i understand its not an enforceable rule, but do you intend on people obeying this or not? Should I say tough luck to the next opponent that asks when i dont wait? My opinion is this rule has a place in clan war games, but in tourneys where many people arent in clans and may not even know there is such a informal rule it seems out of place to ask people to obey this.
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Re: The Great War

Postby shoop76 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:08 pm

mookiemcgee wrote:12 hour fog rule in Great War tourneys?

Almost no one I've played with seems to wait 12 hours (or for my ok) when these games start, so I assumed that the 12 hour fog rule wasn't in place for these tourneys.

However I was just reprimanded by an new opponent for not waiting (the games were only up for about 10-15 min before I started taking my turns), he has asked I share the info on my turns , which i did out of respect.

Frankly it puts me off quite a bit that my respectfulness puts me at a competitve disadvantage in this set, while I'm getting run over in other sets with other players that don't wait. I'm personally not comfortable asking others to share their first turn info, its part of the game as far as I am concerned...

What is the main intent regarding this rule in 'great war' tourneys per you "the management". I would like to have some clarity moving forward. Again i understand its not an enforceable rule, but do you intend on people obeying this or not? Should I say tough luck to the next opponent that asks when i dont wait? My opinion is this rule has a place in clan war games, but in tourneys where many people arent in clans and may not even know there is such a informal rule it seems out of place to ask people to obey this.


Its clearly no a rule in this tourney and many don't wait. I always wait out of respect for my opponent and I know the people I play regularly do the same. But clearly there is a bunch that don't. So I would say its your call.
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