[CL6] Division Phase (PD: TOFU, SD: LHDD, TD: SOH)

[betiko]

Ranking

Both in the qualifying phase and the division phase clan ranking will be based on:

• Total points

If clans have the same total points, ranking will be decided by:

• Game Difference

If clans have the same total points and game difference, ranking will be determined by:

1. Difference in head-to-head results
2. Difference in head-to-head game wins

I have a question:

If TOFU and ACE finish the league with an equal amount of points, but TOFU finishes with zero losses (beating ACE twice) but ACE has a bigger game differential, will ACE win the league?

I just want to make sure I am reading it the same way. It seems a bit ridiculous game differential would take precedence over head-to-head victories at the end of the league. If I am incorrect, then please forgive my reaction.

i think it's made pretty clear in the rules, if there is a tie you go to the following tie breaker:

1) amount of points
2) overall game difference
3) head to head game difference

And no I don't think it's ridiculous at all, even if it doesn't suit you in this case.

In european football, you have different tie breaker rules

in the french and english leagues; in case of a point tie, the overall goal difference is the first tie breaker followed by head to head
in the spanish league and in continental competitions: first goes head to head results, then overall goal difference
in the italian league: an extra couple of tie breaker games are played

These are all different ways of understanding what being the champion means... the best regularity throughout the entire competition, or beating in head to head your rival. Both point of views are totally fair, and for the CL6 we all knew before the competition started what the rule was.

[JPlo64]

Ranking

Both in the qualifying phase and the division phase clan ranking will be based on:

• Total points

If clans have the same total points, ranking will be decided by:

• Game Difference

If clans have the same total points and game difference, ranking will be determined by:

1. Difference in head-to-head results
2. Difference in head-to-head game wins

I have a question:

If TOFU and ACE finish the league with an equal amount of points, but TOFU finishes with zero losses (beating ACE twice) but ACE has a bigger game differential, will ACE win the league?

I just want to make sure I am reading it the same way. It seems a bit ridiculous game differential would take precedence over head-to-head victories at the end of the league. If I am incorrect, then please forgive my reaction.

i think it's made pretty clear in the rules, if there is a tie you go to the following tie breaker:

1) amount of points
2) overall game difference
3) head to head game difference

And no I don't think it's ridiculous at all, even if it doesn't suit you in this case.

In european football, you have different tie breaker rules

in the french and english leagues; in case of a point tie, the overall goal difference is the first tie breaker followed by head to head
in the spanish league and in continental competitions: first goes head to head results, then overall goal difference
in the italian league: an extra couple of tie breaker games are played

These are all different ways of understanding what being the champion means... the best regularity throughout the entire competition, or beating in head to head your rival. Both point of views are totally fair, and for the CL6 we all knew before the competition started what the rule was.

Personally, I think using game differential is much better than head to head.

[betiko]

Personally, I think using game differential is much better than head to head.

same here. although it's not like I think head to head fisrt is totally unfair either, just a different logic. Overall game difference shows you did a better tourney overall. A league is about consistency...

[Lindax]

Ranking

Both in the qualifying phase and the division phase clan ranking will be based on:

• Total points

If clans have the same total points, ranking will be decided by:

• Game Difference

If clans have the same total points and game difference, ranking will be determined by:

1. Difference in head-to-head results
2. Difference in head-to-head game wins

I have a question:

If TOFU and ACE finish the league with an equal amount of points, but TOFU finishes with zero losses (beating ACE twice) but ACE has a bigger game differential, will ACE win the league?

I just want to make sure I am reading it the same way. It seems a bit ridiculous game differential would take precedence over head-to-head victories at the end of the league. If I am incorrect, then please forgive my reaction.

You are correct, but you're still forgiven. You have every right to your own opinion/point of view.

I really don't have anything to add to what has been said above....

Lx

[jackal31]

This needs to be adjusted in future leagues then. I dont know of any professional league that supports runs/points/goals scored over wins by a team in a tiebreak scenario. Completely ridiculous.

Think about that for a minute....TOFU could be undefeated and lose to a two-loss team. Not only that, its a team TOFU beat twice. What sense does that make?

How does this get under the radar?

[IcePack]

This needs to be adjusted in future leagues then. I dont know of any professional league that supports runs/points/goals scored over wins by a team in a tiebreak scenario. Completely ridiculous.

Think about that for a minute....TOFU could be undefeated and lose to a two-loss team. Not only that, its a team TOFU beat twice. What sense does that make?

How does this get under the radar?

They just mentioned two leagues that use that format:

in the french and english leagues; in case of a point tie, the overall goal difference is the first tie breaker followed by head to head

[betiko]

This needs to be adjusted in future leagues then. I dont know of any professional league that supports runs/points/goals scored over wins by a team in a tiebreak scenario. Completely ridiculous.

Think about that for a minute....TOFU could be undefeated and lose to a two-loss team. Not only that, its a team TOFU beat twice. What sense does that make?

How does this get under the radar?

Read the posts above... Right now you are the only one supporting head to head compared to overall game difference.

We are very close from winning the second division; osa could still reach us but we have +38 while they have +23 in GD.
We win in head to head (1w 1d) but supposing we didn t i think it would be really stupid to lose the league in case of a point tie.
if a negative head to head was counted before a much better GD gathered throughout the entire competition against the exact same opponents, that is what seems unfair. You are saying that 16 games are more important than counting the entire 160 each clan plays!

[JPlo64]

I dont know of any professional league that supports runs/points/goals scored over wins by a team in a tiebreak scenario. Completely ridiculous.

That is not a good comparison imo.
Honestly, an argument can be made for game differential being the ONLY deciding factor for the league instead or the set w-t-l thing that is currently used.
How it's done now is like having a clan war where each set is a game. So a standard 3 set war would be like a 3 game match. Which, if it has been done, is not done often.

[Lindax]

This needs to be adjusted in future leagues then. I dont know of any professional league that supports runs/points/goals scored over wins by a team in a tiebreak scenario. Completely ridiculous.

Think about that for a minute....TOFU could be undefeated and lose to a two-loss team. Not only that, its a team TOFU beat twice. What sense does that make?

How does this get under the radar?

Well, here are a few remarks:

CL6 is hardly a professional league.

CL6 is not about runs or goals, it's about points won for winning a set of games.

As usual, there are a variety of ways to deal with a possible tie-break. And one could argue for any of those ways. In this example one could argue that TOFU may have more wins and less losses (and more draws, obviously), but the wins by ACE were more convincing, as shown by their game difference. A game difference which is also considerable bigger than TOFU's.

This is just a example of another point of view. It's all a question of what should weigh more.

The current rules are the same as they were for CL5 and, as mentioned before, were posted for CL6 long before the competition started. Nobody ever mentioned anything negative about them until now.

To conclude: At this point I don't see a reason to change them for future leagues. There would need to be much more support for a change like that before it would be considered.

Lx

[betiko]

Oh and is it true what i just heard?
No promotion/relegation at the end of the cl6? If it's true I don't see how it's fair.
Take lhdd's case. We were a quite low ranked clan when the draw for the qualifying phases started so were going to face much higher ranked clans for sure. We had IA and FALL in our group, and IA was still on the top at that time. Things were very close between the 3 (all 3 won every single skirmish not involving each other) and we were the ones finishing dumb thirds, therefore in second division.
This year we have been fighting hard in second division, where you have a few good clans deserve to go to 1st division because they did good.
It was all based on a draw with some 18 month old rankings that has nothing to do with now.
A season has passed, the last 2 go down and the first 2 go up. Things move too fast in the clan world to make people wait a year to play in first division. You can t possibly think that the champion of second division wouldn't improve the overall first division competitivity compared to the clans struggling not to finish last.

[Lindax]

Oh and is it true what i just heard?
No promotion/relegation at the end of the cl6? If it's true I don't see how it's fair.
Take lhdd's case. We were a quite low ranked clan when the draw for the qualifying phases started so were going to face much higher ranked clans for sure. We had IA and FALL in our group, and IA was still on the top at that time. Things were very close between the 3 (all 3 won every single skirmish not involving each other) and we were the ones finishing dumb thirds, therefore in second division.
This year we have been fighting hard in second division, where you have a few good clans deserve to go to 1st division because they did good.
It was all based on a draw with some 18 month old rankings that has nothing to do with now.
A season has passed, the last 2 go down and the first 2 go up. Things move too fast in the clan world to make people wait a year to play in first division. You can t possibly think that the champion of second division wouldn't improve the overall first division competitivity compared to the clans struggling not to finish last.

This was decided in the CDF Forum. There were very few negative remarks about it.

Lx

[betiko]

Oh and is it true what i just heard?
No promotion/relegation at the end of the cl6? If it's true I don't see how it's fair.
Take lhdd's case. We were a quite low ranked clan when the draw for the qualifying phases started so were going to face much higher ranked clans for sure. We had IA and FALL in our group, and IA was still on the top at that time. Things were very close between the 3 (all 3 won every single skirmish not involving each other) and we were the ones finishing dumb thirds, therefore in second division.
This year we have been fighting hard in second division, where you have a few good clans deserve to go to 1st division because they did good.
It was all based on a draw with some 18 month old rankings that has nothing to do with now.
A season has passed, the last 2 go down and the first 2 go up. Things move too fast in the clan world to make people wait a year to play in first division. You can t possibly think that the champion of second division wouldn't improve the overall first division competitivity compared to the clans struggling not to finish last.

This was decided in the CDF Forum. There were very few negative remarks about it.

Lx

Well i don t see how that makes any sense. If you are going to make closed leagues, then you make playoffs between champions. Right now playing this has been pointless then.
If we have to chose a league, then we ll move to the random league then. No point to play next year in a competition called second division against the exact same opponents... Not to mention that the first division is 1 clan down, so is the second and that the third division is a joke of 6 clans.

[IcePack]

I'm pretty sure LHDD rep voted for it that way Betiko.ight want to talk to him before complaining here why he voted that way, it sucks LHDD didn't get into PL but I also don't see why you're so upset when YOUR clan got what YOUR clan voted for.,,

[JPlo64]

Oh and is it true what i just heard?
No promotion/relegation at the end of the cl6? If it's true I don't see how it's fair.
Take lhdd's case. We were a quite low ranked clan when the draw for the qualifying phases started so were going to face much higher ranked clans for sure. We had IA and FALL in our group, and IA was still on the top at that time. Things were very close between the 3 (all 3 won every single skirmish not involving each other) and we were the ones finishing dumb thirds, therefore in second division.
This year we have been fighting hard in second division, where you have a few good clans deserve to go to 1st division because they did good.
It was all based on a draw with some 18 month old rankings that has nothing to do with now.
A season has passed, the last 2 go down and the first 2 go up. Things move too fast in the clan world to make people wait a year to play in first division. You can t possibly think that the champion of second division wouldn't improve the overall first division competitivity compared to the clans struggling not to finish last.

This was decided in the CDF Forum. There were very few negative remarks about it.

Lx

No regulation = FAIL
Thought it was a great idea...

ALthough I assume that means there will be qualifying again, so LHDD aren't stuck in 2nd division?

[IcePack]

Oh and is it true what i just heard?
No promotion/relegation at the end of the cl6? If it's true I don't see how it's fair.
Take lhdd's case. We were a quite low ranked clan when the draw for the qualifying phases started so were going to face much higher ranked clans for sure. We had IA and FALL in our group, and IA was still on the top at that time. Things were very close between the 3 (all 3 won every single skirmish not involving each other) and we were the ones finishing dumb thirds, therefore in second division.
This year we have been fighting hard in second division, where you have a few good clans deserve to go to 1st division because they did good.
It was all based on a draw with some 18 month old rankings that has nothing to do with now.
A season has passed, the last 2 go down and the first 2 go up. Things move too fast in the clan world to make people wait a year to play in first division. You can t possibly think that the champion of second division wouldn't improve the overall first division competitivity compared to the clans struggling not to finish last.

This was decided in the CDF Forum. There were very few negative remarks about it.

Lx

No regulation = FAIL
Thought it was a great idea...

ALthough I assume that means there will be qualifying again, so LHDD aren't stuck in 2nd division?

No qualifiers, this was very clear in the voting.
First vote was "do we want promotion / relegation" 81% voted yes)
Second vote was specific format (70% voted yes)

Dear Friends,

I know that seven days isn't nearly long enough but as CL6 sign ups will commence today, there is some urgency to have this poll completed and still have time to sign up to CL6.

A no vote will have no impact on CL6.

A yes vote will impact CL6 as the final league tables will be the starting positions for CL7.

After the CL6 we create a Premier Division with the 12 highest placed clans that sign up for the CL7.

With the rest of the clans we form 2 Second Divisions (A & B if you like). We form those divisions as equal as possible by dividing clans that participated in CL6 depending on their placement. Which division will be called A or B we can then determine randomly.

After CL7 is finished, the bottom 4 clans of the Premier Division relegate to the Second Divisions. Clans 9 and 12 go to one Second Division and clans 10 & 11 go to the other Second Division (again randomly).

From each second division, the top 2 clans promote to the Premier Division.

New participants: New clans, or clans that have not participated in CL6, will be randomly divided over the 2 Second Divisions.

[JPlo64]

Oh and is it true what i just heard?
No promotion/relegation at the end of the cl6? If it's true I don't see how it's fair.
Take lhdd's case. We were a quite low ranked clan when the draw for the qualifying phases started so were going to face much higher ranked clans for sure. We had IA and FALL in our group, and IA was still on the top at that time. Things were very close between the 3 (all 3 won every single skirmish not involving each other) and we were the ones finishing dumb thirds, therefore in second division.
This year we have been fighting hard in second division, where you have a few good clans deserve to go to 1st division because they did good.
It was all based on a draw with some 18 month old rankings that has nothing to do with now.
A season has passed, the last 2 go down and the first 2 go up. Things move too fast in the clan world to make people wait a year to play in first division. You can t possibly think that the champion of second division wouldn't improve the overall first division competitivity compared to the clans struggling not to finish last.

This was decided in the CDF Forum. There were very few negative remarks about it.

Lx

No regulation = FAIL
Thought it was a great idea...

ALthough I assume that means there will be qualifying again, so LHDD aren't stuck in 2nd division?

No qualifiers, this was very clear in the voting.
First vote was "do we want promotion / relegation" 81% voted yes)
Second vote was specific format (70% voted yes)

Dear Friends,

I know that seven days isn't nearly long enough but as CL6 sign ups will commence today, there is some urgency to have this poll completed and still have time to sign up to CL6.

A no vote will have no impact on CL6.

A yes vote will impact CL6 as the final league tables will be the starting positions for CL7.

After the CL6 we create a Premier Division with the 12 highest placed clans that sign up for the CL7.

With the rest of the clans we form 2 Second Divisions (A & B if you like). We form those divisions as equal as possible by dividing clans that participated in CL6 depending on their placement. Which division will be called A or B we can then determine randomly.

After CL7 is finished, the bottom 4 clans of the Premier Division relegate to the Second Divisions. Clans 9 and 12 go to one Second Division and clans 10 & 11 go to the other Second Division (again randomly).

From each second division, the top 2 clans promote to the Premier Division.

New participants: New clans, or clans that have not participated in CL6, will be randomly divided over the 2 Second Divisions.

OK, I get it...
Although I don't understand why regulation shouldn't start before CL7. Really isn't fair to put sooo much stock in that 5 round qualifying stage. Doesn't really make much sense.
And seeing how this has nothing to do with CL6 and is a CL7 issue, can it not be readdressed?

[IcePack]

Oh and is it true what i just heard?
No promotion/relegation at the end of the cl6? If it's true I don't see how it's fair.
Take lhdd's case. We were a quite low ranked clan when the draw for the qualifying phases started so were going to face much higher ranked clans for sure. We had IA and FALL in our group, and IA was still on the top at that time. Things were very close between the 3 (all 3 won every single skirmish not involving each other) and we were the ones finishing dumb thirds, therefore in second division.
This year we have been fighting hard in second division, where you have a few good clans deserve to go to 1st division because they did good.
It was all based on a draw with some 18 month old rankings that has nothing to do with now.
A season has passed, the last 2 go down and the first 2 go up. Things move too fast in the clan world to make people wait a year to play in first division. You can t possibly think that the champion of second division wouldn't improve the overall first division competitivity compared to the clans struggling not to finish last.

This was decided in the CDF Forum. There were very few negative remarks about it.

Lx

No regulation = FAIL
Thought it was a great idea...

ALthough I assume that means there will be qualifying again, so LHDD aren't stuck in 2nd division?

No qualifiers, this was very clear in the voting.
First vote was "do we want promotion / relegation" 81% voted yes)
Second vote was specific format (70% voted yes)

Dear Friends,

I know that seven days isn't nearly long enough but as CL6 sign ups will commence today, there is some urgency to have this poll completed and still have time to sign up to CL6.

A no vote will have no impact on CL6.

A yes vote will impact CL6 as the final league tables will be the starting positions for CL7.

After the CL6 we create a Premier Division with the 12 highest placed clans that sign up for the CL7.

With the rest of the clans we form 2 Second Divisions (A & B if you like). We form those divisions as equal as possible by dividing clans that participated in CL6 depending on their placement. Which division will be called A or B we can then determine randomly.

After CL7 is finished, the bottom 4 clans of the Premier Division relegate to the Second Divisions. Clans 9 and 12 go to one Second Division and clans 10 & 11 go to the other Second Division (again randomly).

From each second division, the top 2 clans promote to the Premier Division.

New participants: New clans, or clans that have not participated in CL6, will be randomly divided over the 2 Second Divisions.

OK, I get it...
Although I don't understand why regulation shouldn't start before CL7. Really isn't fair to put sooo much stock in that 5 round qualifying stage. Doesn't really make much sense.
And seeing how this has nothing to do with CL6 and is a CL7 issue, can it not be readdressed?

How would that be fair to everyone who competed under what was already agreed upon and addressed before this started? LHDD might like it readdressed as it helps them, but how is that fair to the bottom PL clans who locked in their start positions per the rules set up before competition began?

[Lindax]

Oh and is it true what i just heard?
No promotion/relegation at the end of the cl6? If it's true I don't see how it's fair.
Take lhdd's case. We were a quite low ranked clan when the draw for the qualifying phases started so were going to face much higher ranked clans for sure. We had IA and FALL in our group, and IA was still on the top at that time. Things were very close between the 3 (all 3 won every single skirmish not involving each other) and we were the ones finishing dumb thirds, therefore in second division.
This year we have been fighting hard in second division, where you have a few good clans deserve to go to 1st division because they did good.
It was all based on a draw with some 18 month old rankings that has nothing to do with now.
A season has passed, the last 2 go down and the first 2 go up. Things move too fast in the clan world to make people wait a year to play in first division. You can t possibly think that the champion of second division wouldn't improve the overall first division competitivity compared to the clans struggling not to finish last.

This was decided in the CDF Forum. There were very few negative remarks about it.

Lx

Well i don t see how that makes any sense. If you are going to make closed leagues, then you make playoffs between champions. Right now playing this has been pointless then.
If we have to chose a league, then we ll move to the random league then. No point to play next year in a competition called second division against the exact same opponents... Not to mention that the first division is 1 clan down, so is the second and that the third division is a joke of 6 clans.

You need to read the info before you start posting my friend.

First of all, if a Premier Division clan drops out or doesn't sign up for CL7, the 1 place of the Second Division moves up. Then the second place, etc. So, with TSM out, you have a pretty good chance of ending up in the Premier Division anyway.

I'm sure the Third Division is not a joke for the participating clans. And they play a double round robin, for your info, so they actually play one more round than the other divisions.

And since you apparently haven't read much about the clan league: There will be no Third Division in CL7.

Lx

[JPlo64]

"Is it the case that whoever wins 2nd division CL6 they will be in premier division in CL7 since tsm dropped out?"

Haha, Lindax answered before I could get the question out

[betiko]

Fair as in if you are last of the league you are just not good enought.
Fair as in we will finish first of our league, and i don't see how a random draw of 5 clans, including drop outs from a year ago are even relevant compared to a league played throughout a year and almost 3 times more games played.
Fair as there are just 11 clans in first division and the rule you are quoting says that the first division has 12 clans. You don t have 12 clans and you are not respecting the rules you are presenting there. Why on earth is the cl7 going to start with 11 clans in first division while we are still playing the cl6 and this can be fixed? Gosh!!!

I don t know who from lhdd was clan representative for this, nothing was said, and i see that you have rushed all clan representatives with a too short deadline to ask their clanmates and that you asked a missguiding question that most people might have understood the wrong way around.
All i understand there is "do you want promotion/relegation for next edition" 81% yes. So yes people want promotion for the next edition but for this one too most likely.

[betiko]

Fair as in if you are last of the league you are just not good enought.
Fair as in we will finish first of our league, and i don't see how a random draw of 5 clans, including drop outs from a year ago are even relevant compared to a league played throughout a year and almost 3 times more games played.
Fair as there are just 11 clans in first division and the rule you are quoting says that the first division has 12 clans. You don t have 12 clans and you are not respecting the rules you are presenting there. Why on earth is the cl7 going to start with 11 clans in first division while we are still playing the cl6 and this can be fixed? Gosh!!!

You obviously did not read my post above.

Lx

Nope sorry on my tablet and i hit reply after ice s last post, didn't see your post nor 64's

Regarding the cl7 all i understood is that there would be A and B instead of 2 & 3, so any newcommer clan who decides to participate starts at that level.

[JPlo64]

OK, I get it...
Although I don't understand why regulation shouldn't start before CL7. Really isn't fair to put sooo much stock in that 5 round qualifying stage. Doesn't really make much sense.
And seeing how this has nothing to do with CL6 and is a CL7 issue, can it not be readdressed?

How would that be fair to everyone who competed under what was already agreed upon and addressed before this started? LHDD might like it readdressed as it helps them, but how is that fair to the bottom PL clans who locked in their start positions per the rules set up before competition began?

I stand by that this is CL7 issue, thus should be able to be formally revisited.
I don't see how this decision could have affected how clans performed. Thus, I don't think it's unfair.
I also question if all the clan reps understood that relegation wouldn't happen until after cl7(yea, yea, I guess it's everyone's responsibility to carefully read the fine print). I know that we at FOED we're under the impression it was happening before.

I guess i've spoke enough... i'll shut up now

[jackal31]

CL6 is hardly a professional league.

CL6 is not about runs or goals, it's about points won for winning a set of games.

Well, we're treating it like one. So, lets talk about it like one.

And the bottom line in any league is the W. In any sport, winning by 1 or winning by 100 is the same thing. The only time the winning amount is used for determining anything is when the human element of ranking gets involved. This needs to be readdressed. I think if people were to use some empathy here, they too would agree. I agree, it is a rare circumstance, but representing a match with only 8 games, supported by multiple different members in each game, surely allows for different things to happen. Its not like its the same players in every game. That would be more supportive of game differential.

You do what it takes to win the game or match. 5 games gets a win, that is all that should matter.Winning 6 games makes another clan that much better? That boosts the game differential by +2. In reality, it doesnt make much difference.

[betiko]

CL6 is hardly a professional league.

CL6 is not about runs or goals, it's about points won for winning a set of games.

Well, we're treating it like one. So, lets talk about it like one.

And the bottom line in any league is the W. In any sport, winning by 1 or winning by 100 is the same thing. The only time the winning amount is used for determining anything is when the human element of ranking gets involved. This needs to be readdressed. I think if people were to use some empathy here, they too would agree. I agree, it is a rare circumstance, but representing a match with only 8 games, supported by multiple different members in each game, surely allows for different things to happen. Its not like its the same players in every game. That would be more supportive of game differential.

You do what it takes to win the game or match. 5 games gets a win, that is all that should matter.Winning 6 games makes another clan that much better? That boosts the game differential by +2. In reality, it doesnt make much difference.

I know i ve been missing posts by lindax to adress my issue but have you been reading all the posts for yours?
The english premier league which is most likely the league competition most followed in the world
goes by overall goal difference THEN head to head. Most leagues I know use that model.
The fact that this doesn t correspond to any american league is not really our problem. No american league works on a true league basis anyway (no playoffs, all the participants of the league are confronted twice in home and away, and you get promotion and relegation).

The fact that it does not fit your logic is not a point. I don t agree with your point of view butI can understand the logic of the head to head. GD first or head to head first is ONLY a matter of point of view, you are presenting it as a no brainer. Well guess what, this has been discussed countless times throughout the past century by league organisers and there is no right answer.
All I see here is that you are the only one preaching head to head first, and that you expect this rule to change only because you say so. You might want to ask a vote before the cl7, seems more reasonable.