Balance Not Included Mafia 3/12 End Game: Balance. Town Wins

[JamesKer1]

Reasoning was 2 part jonty. I'd hardly consider outing someone as a role with your first post a joke.

See, I disagree that virus outed spiesr, I think spiesr was just confirming in a different way.

Which means to me your case has no merit whatsoever - hence useless to talk about - hence you should be lynched for bringing a case with no merit.


In other news, mtam said he used fake votes to trap people, I find using fake votes allows scum to vote scummily and backtrack, so I dislike them (fake votes) and find them that use them scummy.

You're #3 on my lynch list just FYI. You're contributions this far make me sleepy. A case without merit is better than sitting back and not doing anything but point fos for generic things you think are scummy.

If I die and he's still alive more than 1 day after my death I'll be very disappointed in all of you.

This is what I was looking for. The dead usually have some merit. And since he is the only one positively confirmed town, I plan on listening to him.

What about him was scummy? Something had to of triggered.

General lack of posting. Just like I am suspicious for not posting a ton, so is he.

[Metsfanmax]

What was your result for the Hotshot investigation?

Mod failed to provide results, and upon request he said that he felt they were unnecessary since Hotshot was dead.

It is not unnecessary, because 1) it tells us whether you get alignment with your role result and 2) it tells us whether or not you are insane.

[StorrZerg]

Mets he checks for role. Not alignment.

I don't think I've ever heard of a insane role cop.

[StorrZerg]

James why did you decide to play very passive and inactive.

[Metsfanmax]

Mets he checks for role. Not alignment.

Some role cops also return alignment.

[JamesKer1]

What was your result for the Hotshot investigation?

Mod failed to provide results, and upon request he said that he felt they were unnecessary since Hotshot was dead.

It is not unnecessary, because 1) it tells us whether you get alignment with your role result and 2) it tells us whether or not you are insane.

Fair point. However, I think I would have gotten results if I was insane. As for alignment, I'll find out tonight.

James why did you decide to play very passive and inactive.

I am not always 100% available during the week, so it isn't necessarily me "deciding" to play that way. However, I will admit I was - and still am - trying to be quieter since I usually come off scummy when I open my mouth, even if I'm town.

[spiesr]

I'm town and trying to to not be lynched. I come from a different meta, and i do different things. It has been proven in past games that just because i do something different, does not make me scum. Sure streaker doesn't prove me 100%, but it does mean that there are likely 2 people who submitted kills within these 7.

PCM
James
IB
Mets
Jonty
Spiesr
DJ(and a lesser extent if the claim form jonty is real, dj is only on the list if jonty flips mafia with a different role)

I still think that Hotshot dying from targeting scum is the most likely explanation for there being 2 deaths.

I don't think you understand. I'm never going to exit volunteerly of this game. I'm not going to lay down and be lynched, I'm going to fight every second, and try and push town in the right direction. If i live because i've presented good cases, and defended myself well so be it. If i die because people tunnel on one specific moment of day 1, then ill make sure town is set in the right direction to lynch Mafia.

What if you squeak by with the day ending in a no lynch, but with enough of the town convinced you are scum that you will be the number one target tomorrow as well? Isn't a mislynch followed by a fresh start better than a no lynch followed by a mislynch?

If your win con is eliminating "anti-town, then you have to understand that i'm not the last mafia. You are making no effort in finding anyone else. Nor are you playing to part of your win con, and town reading people. This is an issue, because latter in the game people will be unsure of what you think about them, you will suddenly push a new case, the most likely lynch of that day and try to push for the win.

One can easily push more than 1 person.

If I believe I have found scum why would I risk diverting attention from my number one target to pursue a number 2? (Unless it is apparent that number 1 will not be lynched today.) I mean sure you can discuss other players, but I would not want to do anything that could divert votes away from the person I most believe to be scum. Or are we using different definitions of "push?" I consider it to mean push a lynch, as in try to make a person be lynched. It doesn't seem very feasible to try and gather votes on more than one target.

I suspect you avoid doing such things, because you are scared to town read people, and you are scared to try and push someone else for scum.

Again, if my number one target looks like a realistic lynch target for today why would I jeopardise that by going after someone else? Would you not be scared of messing up the chance to lynch the player you most think is scum, or causing a no lynch by splitting votes? No argument about the town reads part, other than we probably disagree about how useful it is.

Correction, you have not pushed anyone scummy this day. Your only original read and case stands for mets.

There are a finite number of meaningful cases to bring up against a person. Unless a game has been going on a long time that number is usually pretty low too. In these circumstance pancakemix has had enough content in what he has said that I don't have a problem with him not being the first one to express the central ideas of the case.

His actions are 100% anti town because of his inactivity, his claim to have visited a dead person needs explication.

While being bad for the town, I would not characterise his activity level as being an anti-town move. Let's call it non-alignment indicative, in my opinion at least.

I am not always 100% available during the week, so it isn't necessarily me "deciding" to play that way. However, I will admit I was - and still am - trying to be quieter since I usually come off scummy when I open my mouth, even if I'm town.

Although posts like this could make me change my mind.

Fair point. However, I think I would have gotten results if I was insane. As for alignment, I'll find out tonight.

No, you will find out today so that it can be used to help us decide who to lynch. (Although I am pretty confident what you will find.)

Anyhow, Vote StorZerg out of the options for today's lynch he is the one I am most suspicious of.

[StorrZerg]

James could easily ask if he gets alignment. It would be stated in his role pm if he did. It's simple, he doesn't get alignment return he only gets role back.


Role cop is generally considered scum sided role anway. I know it doesn't mean he is scum. Like jonty I find his target odd. His only push was me day 1. I don't like his assumption and reason to not check me. If he thinks I'm scummy a check on me could damn me, or save me. I think his check comes from a scum mindset. He wants to check someone that is low key unlikely to die. I do believe he was shocked to see hotshot flip.

[StorrZerg]

I'm town and trying to to not be lynched. I come from a different meta, and i do different things. It has been proven in past games that just because i do something different, does not make me scum. Sure streaker doesn't prove me 100%, but it does mean that there are likely 2 people who submitted kills within these 7.

PCM
James
IB
Mets
Jonty
Spiesr
DJ(and a lesser extent if the claim form jonty is real, dj is only on the list if jonty flips mafia with a different role)

I still think that Hotshot dying from targeting scum is the most likely explanation for there being 2 deaths.

Sure. That was what I brought up originally. Mod would not confirm if cult leader could die by targeting mafia.

I don't think you understand. I'm never going to exit volunteerly of this game. I'm not going to lay down and be lynched, I'm going to fight every second, and try and push town in the right direction. If i live because i've presented good cases, and defended myself well so be it. If i die because people tunnel on one specific moment of day 1, then ill make sure town is set in the right direction to lynch Mafia.

What if you squeak by with the day ending in a no lynch, but with enough of the town convinced you are scum that you will be the number one target tomorrow as well? Isn't a mislynch followed by a fresh start better than a no lynch followed by a mislynch?

then do your part. Make not if you can be on. Help make sure a lynch happens.

If your win con is eliminating "anti-town, then you have to understand that i'm not the last mafia. You are making no effort in finding anyone else. Nor are you playing to part of your win con, and town reading people. This is an issue, because latter in the game people will be unsure of what you think about them, you will suddenly push a new case, the most likely lynch of that day and try to push for the win.

One can easily push more than 1 person.

If I believe I have found scum why would I risk diverting attention from my number one target to pursue a number 2? (Unless it is apparent that number 1 will not be lynched today.) I mean sure you can discuss other players, but I would not want to do anything that could divert votes away from the person I most believe to be scum. Or are we using different definitions of "push?" I consider it to mean push a lynch, as in try to make a person be lynched. It doesn't seem very feasible to try and gather votes on more than one target.

can't really agree with that sentiment. Only if you had hard evidence from a role would that be acceptable. There is reasonable doubt that I'm mafia. I did not submit a kill. My role has no mafia sided indications. (Sure it could be fake). But you have to account of what possible power I could have as mafia. I can't role block, it wasn't a kill. It's not a role check since james claimed that.

Trying to find and out town, makes you accountable latter in the game. Same with scum. If you tunnel 1 person, and don't make reads on others, it becomes indefinitely harder to decide the alignment. Scum don't care for reads. They ideally will push 1 person each day, or lurk while a townie is lynched. Both require minimal effort to figure the game out, and are scummy actions.

I suspect you avoid doing such things, because you are scared to town read people, and you are scared to try and push someone else for scum.

Again, if my number one target looks like a realistic lynch target for today why would I jeopardise that by going after someone else? Would you not be scared of messing up the chance to lynch the player you most think is scum, or causing a no lynch by splitting votes? No argument about the town reads part, other than we probably disagree about how useful it is.

it's apart of the game. Case and point day 1 virus. He was my lead scum. I pushed someone else end of day. A town is not worried about making a mistake. Because a town knows they are town. Mafia are scared to make mistakes because they try to blend in. As for no lynch, I was never scared of that option. I let no lynch happen when I'm mafia, because it denies town information. As town a lynch is alway preferred, it insures information. Even if a town is lynched day 1, you can still interpret alignment from the people who pushed. Same with if he flips mafia, who actually pushed virus, who bandwagoned

Correction, you have not pushed anyone scummy this day. Your only original read and case stands for mets.

There are a finite number of meaningful cases to bring up against a person. Unless a game has been going on a long time that number is usually pretty low too. In these circumstance pancakemix has had enough content in what he has said that I don't have a problem with him not being the first one to express the central ideas of the case.

what about him defending james ?

His actions are 100% anti town because of his inactivity, his claim to have visited a dead person needs explication.

While being bad for the town, I would not characterise his activity level as being an anti-town move. Let's call it non-alignment indicative, in my opinion at least.

I am not always 100% available during the week, so it isn't necessarily me "deciding" to play that way. However, I will admit I was - and still am - trying to be quieter since I usually come off scummy when I open my mouth, even if I'm town.

Although posts like this could make me change my mind.

Fair point. However, I think I would have gotten results if I was insane. As for alignment, I'll find out tonight.

No, you will find out today so that it can be used to help us decide who to lynch. (Although I am pretty confident what you will find.)

Anyhow, Vote StorZerg out of the options for today's lynch he is the one I am most suspicious of.

You are not. Jonty125 and james are both up. James is at l-2 with streaker willing to vote.

[Metsfanmax]

James could easily ask if he gets alignment. It would be stated in his role pm if he did. It's simple, he doesn't get alignment return he only gets role back.

I'm not certain but I'm pretty sure I asked James about this, not you.

[Streaker]

I'm calling **** on James's claim. He is not putting up a defence even in crossfire-interrogation. If I were the cop, I'd try to do a whole lot better to keep that role alive.

Unvote, vote James

[Metsfanmax]

I'm not going to be around for basically the rest of the day and I think the deadline is tonight so I'm going to vote jonty.

[JamesKer1]

James could easily ask if he gets alignment. It would be stated in his role pm if he did. It's simple, he doesn't get alignment return he only gets role back.

I've done so now.

Role cop is generally considered scum sided role anway. I know it doesn't mean he is scum.

That's what I thought too, and I knew it was going to be a sucky claim when it came out. The only way I can think of to explain why I got this role is all roles that have come out thus far as town have been twists of a previous role, except for mtam's. Jonty's is a powered up bodyguard, you are a tracker of some sort.

I'm calling **** on James's claim. He is not putting up a defence even in crossfire-interrogation. If I were the cop, I'd try to do a whole lot better to keep that role alive.

Unvote, vote James

Then give me something to actually defend. I'm answering everything now that I have been outed as cop, and I will be more than happy to do so for you too. I'm not going to try and pass off attention from me by bringing up a case on someone else, if that's what you are looking for, because I consider that scummy myself.

[strike wolf]

HEy all. I am really sick right now and don't think I'll have the energy to do a final vote count or anything tonight. Deadline extended until tomorrow night (hopefully).

[StorrZerg]

Mets, why jonty over james?

[StorrZerg]

James convince me to vote jonty over you.

I understand you think im scummy, but I am willing to listen

[StorrZerg]

unvote

[JamesKer1]

James convince me to vote jonty over you.

I understand you think im scummy, but I am willing to listen

Give me a little bit to get to my laptop and I will prepare a case for you.

By the way, Strike responded- I do get alignment information with my power. Part of the flavor twist I guess.

[pancakemix]

It's an obvious conclusion that there cant be only 2 mafia. ( with a scum team of virus + me) If that was the case, there is no way I bus virus. So hard and then back off. Your theory that I'm mafia hinges that I am not alone today.

Facts of the game also prove it. Streaker took my action and used it on himself.

2 people died in the night.

That assumes I trust Streaker, which I'm disinclined to do seeing as he's been shaky and erratic all game (See, I can form opinions without you prompting me) Granted, that doesn't you last mafia, but idk why you even say that in any case.

On reads: I officially have no idea what StorrZerg's definition of a read is. If someone else had an opinion, I'm not allowed to agree with it. That basically shuts me out of making a read even if I wanted to, I guess seeing as all the information has been responded to. You've either setup this catch-22 or you're trying to paint me scum with no way out and I suppose both could be true here, but the point is even if I give reads, I'm not allowed them because they're not "mine".

James is inactive, you started with reasons to not focus him. Saying his inactivity was reasonable since he dropped out of another mafia game. Then no reason to pressure since he might be replaced. Thing is you never called his actions scummy or town. Until recently. His actions are 100% anti town because of his inactivity, his claim to have visited a dead person needs explication. If anything your actions are defending james.

That's quite a stretch. If someone has a pattern of inactivity, they have a pattern of inactivity. Period. It's not alignment indicative (your favorite phrase!). Now he's here and doing scummy things. More on that in a moment.

Trying to find and out town, makes you accountable latter in the game.

See, I don't buy this. Unless I say something, I think a town read is implicit. Or you could just ask (disclaimer: that has to happen before I stop caring what you think).

it's apart of the game. Case and point day 1 virus. He was my lead scum. I pushed someone else end of day. A town is not worried about making a mistake. Because a town knows they are town.

That's completely backwards. To quote Batman: "It's not who I am, but what I do that defines me". If you're town, you do what's best for town. Your claimed response to the virus situation was not the best play for town. It was completely self-centered. It was you saying "I can look into this. I will test this claim by letting a random person get killed and target them because I am capable of reading virus' mind." You response to his death was "I am at risk because I pushed on scum, therefore I will target myself because I clearly did no wrong during the day an couldn't possibly be a lynch candidate." If you're telling the truth, you're a pretentious prick. If you're not, well you should be lynched regardless. But I'm more inclined to believe the latter because it isn't pro-town play.

You are not. Jonty125 and james are both up. James is at l-2 with streaker willing to vote.

I'm going to assume that you just misread what spiesr wrote and you didn't try to tell him his opinion...

As for james this whole claim nonsense is extremely scummy, to the point where I'm tempted to switch my vote. At the moment I'll give him time to post, but it has to be up by midnight.

[StorrZerg]

I state i can't be the last mafia to entice you to look for another mafia, to see who you push. It doesn't Matter if you trust streaker, since it proves I'm either town, thus another mafia/s or we are a scum team hence another mafia.

Imo a read is a players opinion of another that is more detailed than scummy or town. Reference to posts, quotes to back up the read as well helps to establish how serious the claim is.

As for james, his pattern was different. In his previous town game, he was a lot more involved. Now that he is under pressure he is more active. I say this was a productive push. Being unproductive for town is scummy.

I'll try and explain more for why it's important to town read people latter.

As for asking, what should I have been asking ? And even if you don't care what I think, it allows others to see how you look at the game.

Being up to be lynched never crossed my mind. I've got a fairly large ego with this game. I can come off as a know it all, I can be an ass, I tell people what to do, I'm very opinionated. So adding pretentious prick. Why not.

As for Speirs, other options are present. He talked about no lynch and how it might happen. I'm saying a no lynch is the fault of everyone, not one person who refuses to be lynched.

I agree with james. He is basically a super cop that gets role and alignment. I find it odd it is only stated as role cop and his role pm did not directly say you would find alignment.

If someone is a plain cop I think it damns james claim as 100% scum

[spiesr]

As for Speirs, other options are present. He talked about no lynch and how it might happen. I'm saying a no lynch is the fault of everyone, not one person who refuses to be lynched.

The point I was making there was to attempt to present a scenario (that scenario is more specific than just being a no lynch) where your claimed attitude of never accepting your own lynch would be detrimental to the town. Do you understand hot it would be so in that scenario I mentioned before?

Anyhow, Vote StorZerg out of the options for today's lynch he is the one I am most suspicious of.

You are not. Jonty125 and james are both up. James is at l-2 with streaker willing to vote.

I am not what? I am more suspicions of you than either Jamesker or Jonty. You can say I shouldn't be, but I think it is worded in such a way that you can't say I am not without straight up calling me a liar.

If someone is a plain cop I think it damns james claim as 100% scum

Given the setup premise I would definitely not say 100%, but it would reflect poorly on him.

[StorrZerg]

That is fine if you suspect me over james or jonty. My follow up question is, do you suspect them. If you do, would you be willing to put your vote on either of them to insure a lynch happened. If so which one? Why that one over the other? IF neither, then who do you suspect since you said you had more than 1 scum read.

[StorrZerg]

Day 1 votes.

strike is unvote

red is mafia
blue is town
green is 3rd party

Virus90 (7): StorrZerg, Metsfanmax, pancakemix, mtamburini, Iron Butterfly, HotShot53, Streaker, jonty125, DJfireside , Metsfanmax, pancakemix, spiesr
StorrZerg (1): jonty125, JamesKer1, Streaker
metsfanmax (0): virus90, Iron Butterfly, Streaker. pancakemix
jonty125 (1): HotShot53, Streaker
DJfireside (2): spiesr, StorrZerg, mtamburini
Streaker(0): HotShot53
pancakemix(0): Metsfanmax
Iron Butterfly (1): virus90



some thoughts
From my view point of Streaker town, myself town. And unlikely scum of only 2 starting. There has to be at least 1 mafia on virus.
Town tambo followed me on 2 pushes.

Detailed vote count of day 1. (next post will be day 2)

[StorrZerg]

Day 2 Votes (colors are different, they will be based from my perspective. )


strike is unvote

red is leaning mafia
blue is STRONG town
green is LIKELY town.
no color, unsure.


StorrZerg(3): Djfireside, pancakemix, Streaker, jonty125, spiesr
Jamesker1 (3): StorrZerg, StorrZerg, jonty125, Iron Butterfly, streaker
jonty125 (1): StorrZerg, Streaker, Iron Butterfly, Metsfanmax

People who do not have votes placed
StorrZerg, Jamesker

A few thoughts pending how today lynch goes.
We have 2 "claimed town" role blockers. (one is confirmed and dead)
If he flips town with confirmed role. Djfireside is very likely Town.
If jonty flips with a different role, Djfireside is confirmed scum.
If jonty flips scum with same role, Djfireside likely town.


If James flips mafia, Very likely PCM is mafia. (pcm in my eyes deflected pressure off james twice. )
Jonty likely not mafia.

If i'm lynched. Likely 2 mafia between James, pcm, Jonty.
Streaker will be confirmed town. (you seriously never lynch this guy. his power doesn't seem like a mafia power, and he hard defended me because of his power)

If a second mafia faction is confirmed. PCM very likely scum. Streaker still near confirmed town.
Jonty and James probably both scum.

If 2 kills happen in the night. Likely sk or 2 factions. SK could be (but always try to lynch mafia even if an sk is confirmed)
IB
Spiesr
James
mets

Sk cannot be. Storr, Streaker, jonty,
Likely not Djfireside. Likely not PCM.

Following below are my opinions on the claimed roles. As well as town in general. You are free to disagree or agree idc. Obviously if i get lynched, please STRONGLY consider these options.
Town should most certainly mass claim tomorrow imo. Doesn't' have to be immediately, but be smart about it. Should have lots of information with the claims to figure things out.
Streaker, gl on who you pick. (james might not be a bad choice, if you are able to direct someones power to anyone else in the game)
Jonty if you don't get lynched. You should be going for the block. Do not go on streaker, he has a good chance of saving himself with his own power, or with another person trying to save him. (streaker you are free to disagree with any of my opinion regarding james and jonty's actions on you), (Don't block me, i have a chance to prove my claim let me try. )
James, if you are not lynched. Do not check streaker. Terrible check. Jonty is a good check. any unclaimed is fine. (dj isn't a bad choice )


Vote JamesKer1

[StorrZerg]

StorrZerg(3): Djfireside, pancakemix, Streaker, jonty125, spiesr
Jamesker1 (4): StorrZerg, StorrZerg, jonty125, Iron Butterfly, streaker, StorrZerg
jonty125 (1): StorrZerg, Streaker, Iron Butterfly, Metsfanmax

Sorry, updated Vote count. The votes should be correct, on both sets. If you find something wrong let me know.