Balance Not Included Mafia 3/12 End Game: Balance. Town Wins

[StorrZerg]

Secondly, what do you think about "2 role block abilities" BOTH being town sided? Does that seem a bit much for town?

Re-read the name of the game, please.

fair point.

What do you think of the ability though as town sided or mafia sided.

Jailkeeper is almost always a town-sided role in my experience. The idea is that it's a good power role for town but the roleblocking aspect forces players to make a tradeoff. Jailkeepers are more useful as doctors than as roleblockers though. So it's a safe claim for jonty to make, assuming that the roles respected alignment when distributed.
Sure, but its not exactly a jail keeper. The person remains blocked while the protective vest is on the person. (this is important and ill continue this point)

Second. Same as i asked before, what do you think of jonty's choice as to who he blocked. Do you agree that its odd he blocked "quiet dj who votes virus? Over blocking "Storr who defends virus" Or James "who defends virus and doesn't vote virus?"

It's certainly odd that you're calling someone out for blocking the person you rallied against as scum at the end of D1.
This wouldn't be odd if jonty had me as town end of day 1. And start of today. quote from his first day 2 post

I have to agree Storr was incredibly scummy towards the D1, and the fact that we was protecting mafia cannot be ignored.

If jonty think i am scum (which based off day 1 play, thought i was scum. And off opening day 2, still thinks i am scum at the very start of the day because i pulled off virus), i am most certainly not pulling off virus to push onto another scum. I think its reasonable a town jonty, would be more inclined to NOT block a person who helped push virus at the end, and would rather block someone who 1 pulled off virus (myself or tambo) or who never pushed him ever and defended virus (james)


Presumably you should be happy that he followed your lead.
Nope. If he thought i was town, i would find it acceptable.
I obviously don't know his thought process, but it's plausible that he believed that you simply made an unintentional error in switching away from virus at the end, but that your instincts about dj were also correct.
Sure we don't know his exact thought process. We only know what he has stated. His opening day 2 post indicates that in no way did he think i was town.

I couldn't entirely blame someone for thinking at the end of D1 that you're town for your original case on virus even if you still made that strange switch.
Sure, and i can agree with that statement. But we have clear statements from jonty that he did not think i was town. Does this now change your opinion?




As for James, it's just really hard to know in this case. It's possible that he just forgot to send in his role on N1, etc., so a roleblock on him would be possibly wasted. Also note that the claim jonty gave is for a difficult role. If you target scum, then it's a mixed result because you'll roleblock them but also you're protecting them from any town kills. So you don't do it willy-nilly.
I'm not sure what you are talking about with this. James has responded, and has said he did not fail to submit a night action. And that he DID visit someone who died.

Ok the role, if played correctly you target scum suspect every night. Why? because if you hit all the scum then they can't submit a night kill since they are role blocked. It doesn't matter if scum gets protection in the night. A lynch is still a lynch, and should kill anyone even with a vest. (this is an assumption) I'm sure jonty can ask and state if this is true. If you target someone you think is scum, and kp seems to be reduced. Then you have to decide why the kp failed, did you block scum correctly or did mafia target your scum suspect.

Back to jontys point of view, he targeted "DJFireside, because he was quiet." This means that he didn't try to protect DJ. He thought DJ was scum. If jonty was using it as protective, he would have stated it as such.

[Djfireside]

Sorry wifes Bday and thought I would have had more time. I am going to post up my feelings on the whole day. I skimmed through but saw something that needed response now.

L-2, I'll claim. I'm Edgar Gries-Town Fumigator. It's kinda of like a super jailkeeper. In that every night I target someone and they get a bulletproof vest, and they are roleblocked until the vest is removed by a kill attempt. N1 I targetted DJFireside, because he was quiet.

I can confirm that I received a BulletProof vest last night so I believe he is telling the truth. Thankfully I understand now where it came from. Based on the flavor of his role and what happened I believe Jonty.

Will post my next part tonight shortly.

[StorrZerg]

Sorry wifes Bday and thought I would have had more time. I am going to post up my feelings on the whole day. I skimmed through but saw something that needed response now.

L-2, I'll claim. I'm Edgar Gries-Town Fumigator. It's kinda of like a super jailkeeper. In that every night I target someone and they get a bulletproof vest, and they are roleblocked until the vest is removed by a kill attempt. N1 I targetted DJFireside, because he was quiet.

I can confirm that I received a BulletProof vest last night so I believe he is telling the truth. Thankfully I understand now where it came from. Based on the flavor of his role and what happened I believe Jonty.

Will post my next part tonight shortly.

are you able to confirm if you got role blocked?

[Djfireside]

Yes I was role blocked.

[StorrZerg]

Yes I was role blocked.

So I raised points against jonty. Regarding who he used his power on. What are your thoughts?

[Metsfanmax]

If jonty think i am scum (which based off day 1 play, thought i was scum. And off opening day 2, still thinks i am scum at the very start of the day because i pulled off virus), i am most certainly not pulling off virus to push onto another scum. I think its reasonable a town jonty, would be more inclined to NOT block a person who helped push virus at the end, and would rather block someone who 1 pulled off virus (myself or tambo) or who never pushed him ever and defended virus (james)

If jonty is town and doesn't have a really good reason to lie, then I sort of agree with your argument. If he thought you were mafia, then he would also perhaps think that dj was not mafia. A possible exception is if he thought dj was some sort of third party. This would have been a plausible thing to believe going into N1. However, keep in mind that this is a non-linear game. jonty can think you were acting scummy at the end of D1, but sometimes you've got to cover your bases. He might have thought: well, one of the two of these guys is scum, so let's roleblock one and try to lynch the other.

I'm not trying to defend him here, but I don't think this alone is enough for me to pull the trigger on him. However, a number of things he has said have tipped me off and I am not at all convinced he's town.

I'm not sure what you are talking about with this. James has responded, and has said he did not fail to submit a night action. And that he DID visit someone who died.

I was explaining why jonty wouldn't necessarily want to roleblock james -- james is often AWOL and so a roleblock against him is possibly wasted.

[StorrZerg]

What do you think of James visiting a dead person.?

[Metsfanmax]

Not going to speculate if James plans on elaborating.

[StorrZerg]

Do you want him to claim? Do you want him to say a who he visited? Why?

[StorrZerg]

Actually mets. What do you think the best course james should take now?

[Djfireside]

Here is my first part of the post

In response to the Jonty push, I tend to believe him based on what I experienced. Since the vest and action appears to not be mafia I would vote either 3rd or town. The fact that I was targetted I dont know. I guess since I was the other person on the block that I may have been targetted.

As for James statement, I want to hear what they have to say. They have been absent so I expect to get information from them and not have to pull teeth.

Here is a basic review of others.

1. storrzerg -- Unfortunately has not moved me enough to remove my vote. Their defense on virus and the overall jumpyness and role just leave me feeling uneasy about them. Based on their banter with others I am getting a more telling on rest of field and keeping my mind open to others.
4. Djfireside -- Im me.
5. Pancakerulez -- Based on their statements and how they are defending their stances I take them as town. Based on the banter between in him storr on p14 I follow his comments and they make sense and play towards locating mafia.
6. Jamesker -- Havent seen them, each time prodded makes a single post and disappears. Higher on scumdar for this and want to hear something helpful.
7. Jonty -- Edgar Gries-Town Fumigator -- Bulletproof RB. Since I can prove this I believe claim.
8. Iron Butterfly -- has made valid logical claims but have been flying under the radar. Hasnt gripped me either way
10. Silver Samus -- Based on my vantage point they appear to be a little flaky. Curious on the quote below. Busdriver?
11. Metsfanmax -- Fights alot with everyone. Currently with storr and but have hit PCM as well. Unable to get straight read but based on how others turn up will show more on mets.

Don't worry, I'm here. I just did a quick read through the posts, as I said, I was out of town for a few days (which I mentioned before).
What I see is that Storr has a hole in his story, that he feared he'd be killed this night. There is a post where he states he will definitely NOT be killed due to protection going to him.
Also, I am 100% sure Storr did not use his power on himself. Give me a bit more time to get back to this.

Further, I am wanting to build a case on Jonty, but no time for now. I should be able to post something more extensive by Saturday lastest.

Streaker, So you bussed yourself with Storr? The allegid d1 pusher who would have been higher on my list for starting up on virus to start with?

Currently

[StorrZerg]

Dj, why doesn't jonty block his biggest scum target?

[StorrZerg]

You have to admit it's strange he blocks someone who votes virus, because of inactivity, when james was just as inactive and did not push virus.

Or his more clear target of blocking mtamburini who was pushing on him hard and pulled off virus to push dj.

And myself who pushed him, defends virus. His top scum was me most of day 1. And i was his immediate push is me day 2.

[Metsfanmax]

Just want to point out that it's possible that both dj and jonty are scum and backing up each other's lies, in addition to the possibility that jonty is actually a mafia jailkeeper.

[Djfireside]

That would be a question for Jonty. Im not sure who he sees or what his logic was. Since I dont see my play from others view I dunno why I was targetted by him other than what I stated. Since I was the other push for a wagon is the only thing I can think of but since my further push on Virus and stance on him was a proper lynch of mafia, I dont know why I would have been on top of his list but as I said that would be a question for him.

Mets, I can follow your logic as I was thinking something similar in if he was mafia would he have targetted me based on what occurs when he targets you. Im not faulting the thought as I had the same thing in trying to determine his role and alignment.

[spiesr]

Dj, why doesn't jonty block his biggest scum target?

How do you know that is his goal was to block somebody rather than to protect someone? His role does both.

[Metsfanmax]

Dj, why doesn't jonty block his biggest scum target?

How do you know that is his goal was to block somebody rather than to protect someone? His role does both.

His stated reasoning in this case was that he targeted Dj because he seemed "quiet," which seems to me to indicate that he thought Dj was scummaring and therefore he wanted to roleblock him.

[StorrZerg]

Dj, why doesn't jonty block his biggest scum target?

How do you know that is his goal was to block somebody rather than to protect someone? His role does both.

Because he blocked someone off inactivity. A town jailer protects someone because he thinks they are town, and he then says so.

Why would a town jailer protect an inactive?

His motivation on his block from his statement is in regards to trying to block, not save.

FP mets. Same conclusion

[StorrZerg]

Also where is this huge post from james

[Iron Butterfly]

Dj, why doesn't jonty block his biggest scum target?

How do you know that is his goal was to block somebody rather than to protect someone? His role does both.

Because he blocked someone off inactivity. A town jailer protects someone because he thinks they are town, and he then says so.

Why would a town jailer protect an inactive?

His motivation on his block from his statement is in regards to trying to block, not save.

FP mets. Same conclusion

A jail keeper is useful strategic tool to both protect AND block. You like to bring up the breaking bad game so...in that game I was jailkeeper. I blocked Rodion to protect and block until I was sure...I jail kept him every turn, which in the end proved he was not the killer AND saved his life. It helped win the game for us. A Town jailer does not always protect because they believe someone is Town. In fact the role is a double edged sword if you are trying to protect ...especially on day one.

Blocking who you think is scum in my opinion is better then blocking who you think is Town

With DJ confirming the vest...

unvote jonty

[StorrZerg]

Ib... jonty did not block to protect. ...

What do you think of James right now?

[StorrZerg]

Information / claims. / resonable assumptions We have today. You don't have to agree with everything i am presenting. Just a collection of thoughts before i post my read on PCM. and my push on James.

Mtamburini Role blocked someone
Streaker re targeted my ability onto himself. (pending him stating other wise, he did not bus me and him) (he did not die, so that means i did not send a kill action last night.)
Jonty used his super jail / super role block on DJfireside
Djfire side has confirmed he was blocked and has a vest.
Jamesker visited a dead person (one of hotshot or mtamb)


People with night actions. that can be blocked.
Djfireside (claimed role blocked) Role ????
Jonty vest + indefinite role block while vested.
Storr Town Crier
Streaker ??? ability to move an action onto himself (or others? idk )
James ????

because of the claims above, It is likely none of those players are a 3rd party serial killer.
Meaning if a SK is in the game, it would likely be between PCM, Mets, IBm Spiesr.

This means likely one of these people was role blocked. (Or it means that both jonty and tambo role blocked the same person, or it means that jonty is faking role block on an actual role blocked person)
PCM
Metz
IB
Spiesr

Conclusions On claims today.

Streaker and Storr cannot both be mafia. The manner of the claim from Streaker is very odd, indicates he felt Storr was town using his ability to redirect storrs action unto himself. He would not use this ability if he felt storr was mafia or had a killing power imo. If storr flips town (which he will) Streaker is most likely confirmed town the rest of the game.

Jonty claimed to Block / vest DJ. Dj has confirmed this to be true. If jonty flips mafia with that power, then DJ is likely confirmed town. If jonty flips mafia with out that power, DJ is mafia with Jonty. If jonty flips town with this power, DJ is likely town (reasoning, a kill couldn't have come from DJ last night, and his power was blocked) If no kill is directed at dj the rest of the game, he remains blocked, if a point in the game comes where no night kills happen, its plausible to deduce his alignment latter in the game If jonty flips town with said role.

James out of the blue claims to have visited Either hotshot, or mtamburini. Unknown conclusion, need more information.

[StorrZerg]

My view on what to do with James. I say we push him now and force a claim. (keep in mind i still feel he is VERY scummy from entire day 1 play, as well as most of day 2) (now im not here to debate the "well storr you defended virus like him whats different, I'm done with this line of response. This isn't helpful, and it avoids answering questions about james)


Why should we do this? 1. He claimed to have visited a dead person, this in itself is an admission of guilt. Even if its not an admission, it certainly was strange the way he volunteered this information.

2. He isn't playing the game, He has made some posts here and there, but he really isn't playing. He has had the same point of view on the game since day 1, He failed to push virus even once, he defended Virus.

3. I feel the town collective will make a better call on what he should be doing, pending his claim.
4. I feel the pressure on him will actually make him play the game, I feel he is scum, and that is why he is avoiding talking. He has stated he is writing something, it has been almost 4 days since his last contribution to the game. I feel this is unacceptable from a town stand point.

5. Any attempt at defending him, or trying to push this lynch away (or even voting me to end the day) will not be good for town. He needs to contribute, we need to use our leverage to make him.


(no way does this post reflect my current views on jonty)


##Unvote Jonty125
##Vote Jamesker

I ask anyone that is still open to reason, to see this case for what it is. It is a necessary case that must be done. He needs to talk, his play has been unacceptable. He is a classic lurker this game.

I'm now going to bring up some meta. In the newbie game, the rules stated he had to post more often than in this game. He was fully capable of posting every day. He POSTED EVERY DAY he was alive. Not every day phase, I mean every day.

This current game, he posts at max 1 time ever few days. on a lucky day, maybe 2x. With long gaps. He is clearly lurking in this game, He is clearly not reading the thread that well (hence his random volunteering of information of not being role blocked, and visiting mtamb or hotshot)

[Metsfanmax]

Can you stop putting #'s in front of your votes? As a programmer I instinctively think those lines are commented out and so I ignore them.

[StorrZerg]

Can you stop putting #'s in front of your votes? As a programmer I instinctively think those lines are commented out and so I ignore them.

sure